Please take a look at this class

The homebrew forum

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

I came across a class that I wanted to use in my next campaign and I want you to look at it to see what needs to be done to improve it.

*note: I didn't make this class

Stado;5436701 wrote:Rune Knight

"Thank you ever so much, that spell's just what I needed to finish you off."
—Celeste Aerthennar, a human rune knight returning the favor to an enemy wizard

Image

Runes, mystic symbols and/or patterns believed to hold magical importance and often utilized in the casting of various spells. One such runic pattern is the very basis of a breed of anti-mages known as rune knights. Rune knights are oddities among the arcane adept, for they are trained in the use of counter magics, able to turn an enemy's spells against them via the inscription of a single, yet powerful runic symbol upon their weapons and backsides. To supplement their runic powers, each rune knight also undergoes rigorous martial training and are taught to harness a small amount of arcane spells for their own use as a back-up measure.

Knights by trade and oath, runic knights develop the use of their unique brand of runic counter magic within small orders whose underlaying purpose is to train new knights for the mutual protection of the knights themselves, their order, and the knowledge they hold dear. These orders, each upholding their own set of beliefs, ideals and goals, often find themselves in the service of various monarchs and other authority figures who desire their unique talents. On other occasions, they are commissioned or hired by numerous guilds seeking their specialized abilities in the hunting, assassination, or slaying of dangerous criminals, high ranking wizards, rogue mages, and other powerful magical beings and creatures, even dragons.

Runic knights can be distinguished by the type of rune used on their weapon as well as a duplicate rune that is tattooed onto the knight's back in a much larger fashion. This rune, embedded there by arcane magic, cannot be removed by nearly any means but the rune knight's own undoing. Each order tends to have a unique rune, which is to be used by those that work and train under the order, though individual rune knights of high ranking, lone, or rogue status oftentimes replace their rune with one of their own design so as to set them apart and/or hide from those of their order. The inscribing of a rune knight's rune is a process by which all runic knights are educated in early on in their training and is known to very few outside the orders.

Making A Rune Knight
Abilities: Charisma controls many of the rune knight's special powers, including her spellcasting. Strength is important for her because of its role in combat. Dexterity and Constitution both contribute to the rune knight's long-term survival.
Races: Rune knights come in all shapes and sizes, however that shape and size quite regularly finds itself to be the perfect match for the human form. Dwarves rank fairly high in terms of numbers, their affinity for martial battle and rune scripts making them likely candidates. Elves and even half-elves who seek to uphold the virtues of lawful practitioners of the arcane arts also find themselves in good standing to join the orders.
Alignment: Any lawful.
Starting Gold: 6d4x10 gp (150 gp).
Starting Age: As paladin (PH 109).

Class Skills
The rune knight's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). See Player's Handbook, Chapter 4: Skills for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Hit Dice: d8.

Code: Select all

[B]       Base            Fort  Ref   Will                      —Spells per Day—[br]Level  Attack Bonus    Save  Save  Save  Special            1st  2nd  3rd  4th[/B][br] 1st   +1              +2    +0    +2    Runic               —    —    —    —[br] 2nd   +2              +3    +0    +3    Arcane resistance   —    —    —    —[br] 3rd   +3              +3    +1    +3    Mettle              —    —    —    —[br] 4th   +4              +4    +1    +4    —                   0    —    —    —[br] 5th   +5              +4    +1    +4    Bonus feat          0    —    —    —[br] 6th   +6/+1           +5    +2    +5    Runic strike        1    —    —    —[br] 7th   +7/+2           +5    +2    +5    —                   1    —    —    —[br] 8th   +8/+3           +6    +2    +6    Return magic        1    0    —    —[br] 9th   +9/+4           +6    +3    +6    —                   1    0    —    —[br]10th   +10/+5          +7    +3    +7    Bonus feat          1    1    —    —[br]11th   +11/+6/+1       +7    +3    +7    —                   1    1    0    —[br]12th   +12/+7/+2       +8    +4    +8    Runic spellstrike   1    1    1    —[br]13th   +13/+8/+3       +8    +4    +8    —                   1    1    1    —[br]14th   +14/+9/+4       +9    +4    +9    Deflect magic       2    1    1    0[br]15th   +15/+10/+5      +9    +5    +9    Bonus feat          2    1    1    1[br]16th   +16/+11/+6/+1   +10   +5    +10   —                   2    2    1    1[br]17th   +17/+12/+7/+2   +10   +5    +10   —                   2    2    2    1[br]18th   +18/+13/+8/+3   +11   +6    +11   Runic breach        3    2    2    1[br]19th   +19/+14/+9/+4   +11   +6    +11   —                   3    3    3    2[br]20th   +20/+15/+10/+5  +12   +6    +12   Bonus feat          3    3    3    3
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A rune knight is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Because the somatic components required for rune knight spells are simple, a rune knight can cast rune knight spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a rune knight wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass rune knight still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells derived from other classes.

Rune: A rune knight's rune is a symbol of herself or her order, and is the instrument by which all runic knights draw their power. Every rune is unique to each order and rune knight that use it and often represents that person's and/or order's beliefs and values. This rune is found on the back of every rune knight as well as their runic weapon. All runic knights begin play with a runic weapon—a one-handed masterwork melee weapon with their rune inscribed on it and with which they are proficient. Inscribing a rune upon a weapon takes 8 hours of meditation and is where the rune knight harmonizes the weapon with her arcane energies. The rune appears upon the weapon at the end of meditation and cannot be erased by any means save but their own undoing, the destruction of the weapon, or a Wish spell. Inscribing a rune upon one's back is a similar process, but takes 24 hours of fasted meditation and can only be performed once a month.

Runic (Su): A rune knight uses her runic weapon in conjunction with the rune on her back as a sort of magical lightning rod, focusing a spell's own magic power into her body to cancel it out. Activating runic is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity and lasts until the rune knight either successfully absorbs a spell or spell-like ability, or makes another action. Free actions do not count against this.
Runic absorbs the first spell cast within 5 ft./rune knight level of the rune knight's presence, be it from friend or foe. At the rune knight's discretion, this distance can be altered to be smaller than her maximum for her level before every use of runic, thus allowing the exclusion of a creature's spells that are cast outside runic. However, spells cast into the set perimeter of her runic ability will also be absorbed.
A rune knight can't absorb a spell of a higher spell level than half her class level, rounded down. To absorb a spell, a rune knight must succeed on a level check (1d20 + rune knight class level) against a DC of 10 + the spell's caster level. Failure indicates that the spell has its normal effect. Success means that the rune knight absorbs the spell, effectively canceling it out. Summoned creatures and/or objects that are already summoned cannot be absorbed by runic.
If a rune knight absorbs another spell before using up the energy from a previously absorbed spell with one of her runic abilities, the newer spell replaces the old one, even if it's a lower level spell.

Arcane Resistance (Su): At 2nd level, a rune knight gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (minimum +1) on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

Mettle (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a rune knight can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower and fortitude. If she makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), she instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping rune knight does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a rune knight gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, which are drawn from the rune knight spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time, just as a sorcerer can.
To learn or cast a spell, a rune knight must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, Cha 12 for 2nd-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a rune knights's spell is 10 + the spell level + the rune knight's Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a rune knight can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score. When the table above indicates that the rune knight gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level (for instance, 1st-level spells for a 4th-level rune knight), she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Charisma score for that spell level.
The rune knight's selection of spells in extremely limited. A rune knight begins play knowing no spells, but gains one or more new spells at certain level, as indicated on the table below. (Unlike spells per day, her Charisma score does not affect the number of spells a rune knight knows; the numbers on the table below are fixed.)
Upon reaching 12th level, and at every third rune knight level after that (15th and 18th), a rune knight can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the rune knight "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest level rune knight spell the rune knight can cast. A rune knight may only swap a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.
Though 3rd level, a rune knight has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her rune knight.

Code: Select all

[B]         ———Spells Known————[br]Level  1st  2nd  3rd  4th[/B][br] 1st    —    —    —    —[br] 2nd    —    —    —    —[br] 3rd    —    —    —    —[br] 4th    2¹   —    —    —[br] 5th    2    —    —    —[br] 6th    3    —    —    —[br] 7th    3    —    —    —[br] 8th    4    2¹   —    —[br] 9th    4    2    —    —[br]10th    4    3    —    —[br]11th    4    3    2¹   —[br]12th    4    4    3    —[br]13th    4    4    3    —[br]14th    4    4    4    2¹[br]15th    4    4    4    3[br]16th    4    4    4    3[br]17th    5    4    4    4[br]18th    5    5    4    4[br]19th    5    5    5    4[br]20th    5    5    5    5
¹ Provided the rune knight has sufficient Charisma to have a bonus spell of this level.

Bonus Feat: At 5th level, and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th), a rune knight gains a bonus feat, which must either be a Runic feat or selected from the following list: Arcane Strike, Arcane Toughness, Battle Caster, Battlecaster Defense, Battlecaster Offense, Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Obtain Familiar, Somatic Weaponry, Vatic Gaze.

Runic Strike (Su): At 6th level, a rune knight can begin to put the magic absorbed through her runic ability to good use. After absorbing a spell with her runic ability, a rune knight can, as a free action, channel the spell's energy into her runic weapon, granting her additional damage on her next successful attack. If the rune knight hits and deals damage, she deals extra damage equal to 1d4 points x the level of the absorbed spell on the attack.
For example, a rune knight who absorbs a 3rd-level spell with her runic ability and channels its energy into her runic weapon as a runic strike deals an 3d4 damage on her next successful attack.
The benefit of this ability only applies when a rune knight wields her runic weapon. She is unable to use this ability when disarmed of or not wielding her runic weapon.
Using a 0-level spell with this ability grants no benefit.

Return Magic (Su): Rather than merely being able to absorb and cancel a spell or spell-like ability through her runic ability, a rune knight can now cast any spell of a harmful nature that affects her back at the caster, free of using a spell slot. However, where runic stops the spell's effects, the rune knight must weather the spell cast and survive in order to react to it. The spell still has its normal effect.
A rune knight can't return a spell of a higher spell level than half her class level, rounded down.
Return magic only works if the spell actually affects the rune knight; a spell absorbed by runic, bounced with deflect magic, resisted, or avoided cannot be returned. Returned spells only affect the original caster, even if it was originally an area spell. If affected by a spell that has more than one target (e.g. magic missile), a rune knight only returns [in the case of magic missile] the number of missiles that actually affected her.
Returned spells use the caster level of the original spellcaster. Summon spells are not affected by return magic. Only the most recent harmful spell to affect the rune knight can be returned. Return magic does not activate if a rune knight is unconscious or sleeping.

Runic Spellstrike (Su): At 13th level, a rune knight learns another technique in which to use the magic absorbed through her runic ability. After absorbing a spell with her runic ability, a rune knight can, as a free action, channel the spell's energy into her runic weapon, allowing her to destroy her target's spell slots on her next successful attack. If the rune knight hits and deals damage, she destroys a number of spell slots in spell levels equal to the level of the absorbed spell on the attack.
For example, a rune knight who absorbs a 6th-level spell with her runic ability and channels its energy into her runic weapon as a runic spellstrike can destroy a single 6th-level spell slot, six 1st-level spell slots, or any combination of spell slots that equal six in spell levels on her next successful attack. A rune knight cannot, however, destroy 0-level spell slots with this ability.
The effect of this ability only applies when a rune knight wields her runic weapon. She is unable to use this ability when disarmed of or not wielding her runic weapon.
Using a 0-level spell with this ability grants no benefit.

Deflect Magic (Su): A rune knight can now deflect a spell or spell-like ability of a harmful nature aimed at her. Deflecting a spell uses up the rune knight's attack of opportunity for that round, and thus she cannot deflect a spell if she has already made her attack of opportunity that round or if she is flat-footed.
A rune knight can't deflect a spell of a higher spell level than half her class level, rounded down. To deflect a spell, a rune knight must succeed on a level check (1d20 + rune knight class level) against a DC of 10 + the spell's caster level.
A deflected spell can be sent at a selected creature in a straight line from the rune knight with a successful Concentration check with a DC of 25, failure indicates the spell goes off in a randomly determined direction adjacent to the rune knight.
This abilty applies only to spells and spell-like abilities that require an attack roll. Other spells and spell-like abilities that affect a target aren't subject to deflection.
Deflect magic can be used in combination with the Combat Reflexes feat to deflect more spells per round and to do so even while flat-footed.
For every five ranks a rune knight has in Spellcraft (not including her Intelligence bonus), she gains a +1 bonus on level checks made to deflect spells and spell-like abilities.

Runic Breach (Su): At 18th level, a rune knight is able to utilize her final runic craft, allowing her to use the magic absorbed through her runic ability to bypass and lower an enemy's spell resistance. As a standard action, a rune knight gathers the spell energy absorbed through runic into her runic weapon and thrusts it out a creature within 60 feet as a ranged touch attack, forcing the creature to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ rune knight class level + the rune knight's Charisma modifier) if the touch attack hits. Success indicates that the energy of the absorbed spell is used up with no effect. Failure indicates that the creature's spell resistance is lowered by 2 x the level of the absorbed spell for a number of rounds equal to the rune knight's Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
For example, a rune knight with a Charisma score of 16 who absorbs a 9th-level spell with her runic ability and channels its energy into her runic weapon as a runic breach effect can lower a creature's spell resistance by 18 for three rounds if she hits true with the ranged touch attack and the creature fails its Fortitude save.
The effect of this ability can only be applied when a rune knight wields her runic weapon. She is unable to use this ability when disarmed of or not wielding her runic weapon.
Using a 0-level spell with this ability grants no benefit.

Rune Knight Spell List
1st Level: alarm, arcane mark, critical strike, detect magic, detect secret doors, endure elements, erase, expeditious retreat, feather fall, hold portal, identify, lesser orb of cold, lesser orb of electricity, magic missile, magic weapon, mount, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, read magic, shield, shocking grasp, true strike, undetectable alignment.
2nd Level: arcane lock, battering ram, bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, daze monster, detect thoughts, dissonant chant, eagle's splendor, guest of wind, ice knife, knock, melf's acid arrow, misdirection, obscure object, portal alarm, resist energy, see invisibility, sleet storm, tongues, weapon shift, web, whirling blade.
3rd Level: arcane sight, bands of steel, deep slumber, discern shapechanger, dispel magic, explosive runes, greater magic weapon, haste, keen edge, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, mass resist energy, nondetection, protection from energy, remove curse, secret page, sepia snake sigil, sign of sealing, slow, spell vulnerability, wind wall, wraithstrike.
4th Level: anticipate teleportation, arcane eye, break enchantment, defenestrating sphere, detect scrying, dimension door, dimensional anchor, lesser globe of invulnerability, lightning bolt, locate creature, orb of cold, orb of electricity, otiluke's resilient sphere, scrying, sending, stoneskin, symbol of sleep, wall of ice.

Author's Notes
Spells or spell-like abilities that qualify as being of a harmful nature are to be defined by the DM and thus are liable to differ based on the discretion of each DM. You may ask me, as the creator and author of this class, how I might judge certain spells, but even if my opinion differs from that of your own or your DMs', it doesn't make anyone wrong. So please, do not call a person out on the matter, especially myself.


Here is the link to the class at the Wizard's forums
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... 718[br][br]
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
User avatar
Sir Neil
Knight-Baron
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Land of the Free, Home of the Brave

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Sir Neil »

Leress wrote:I came across a class that I wanted to use in my next campaign and I want you to look at it to see what needs to be done to improve it.


Set it on fire.

Runic (Su):...Activating runic is a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity and lasts until the rune knight either successfully absorbs a spell or spell-like ability, or makes another action. Free actions do not count against this.
Runic absorbs the first spell cast within 5 ft./rune knight level of the rune knight's presence, be it from friend or foe....
A rune knight can't absorb a spell of a higher spell level than half her class level, rounded down. To absorb a spell, a rune knight must succeed on a level check (1d20 + rune knight class level) against a DC of 10 + the spell's caster level....


To use this ability she has to fight her way within 5' of a caster who is willing to risk an AoO rather than take a 5' step, and then wait for the chance to make a level check. Or, I could play a BARD, who can use his 1st level boost on the whole party and shoot a longbow at the same time!

Spell List


Ugh. A 14th level character throwing a 7 HD lightning bolt? Again the rune knight loses to the bard.

***
If Runic didn't preclude actions, provoke AoO, worked on incoming spells, and didn't need a level check, it'd be great. Mettle, Runic Spellstrike, Deflect Magic, and Runic Breach are already good. So you'd have five good abilities in 20 levels. That says "5 level PrC" to me.

I liked Celes, too, but this isn't the way to do her... I mean, to translate her abilities.
Koumei wrote:If other sites had plenty of good homebrew stuff the Den wouldn't need to exist. We don't come here because we like each other.
User avatar
Cielingcat
Duke
Posts: 1453
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Cielingcat »

Now, the "Runic" ability actually says 5 feet per level. This still sucks, but can't be nullified by a single five foot step.

Of course, it could be made so much easier by simply giving them spell resistance, but that would be easy and people can never do that.

The reflection ability could be simplified and made not horrible by making any spell that is resisted and meets the criteria affected as by Spell Turning. Of course, that would kind of make it better than the Deflect Magic ability, so maybe you have to have a readied action to do that or something.
CHICKENS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO COCAINE, SILKY HEN
Josh_Kablack wrote:You are not a unique and precious snowflake, you are just one more fucking asshole on the internet who presumes themselves to be better than the unwashed masses.
Catharz
Knight-Baron
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Catharz »

I'd suggest taking a look at the Samurai base class from Races of War.
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1168852861[/unixtime]]I'd suggest taking a look at the Samurai base class from Races of War.

Thanks, I will.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
User avatar
Sir Neil
Knight-Baron
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Land of the Free, Home of the Brave

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Sir Neil »

Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1168832873[/unixtime]]Now, the "Runic" ability actually says 5 feet per level. This still sucks, but can't be nullified by a single five foot step.


I noticed that, but was looking at the class at level 1. What can this rune knight do fresh out of the box? Get overshadowed by the monk and bard.
Koumei wrote:If other sites had plenty of good homebrew stuff the Den wouldn't need to exist. We don't come here because we like each other.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Username17 »

I'm going to side with the "set it on fire" crowd. In its first four levels it gets... no offensive abilities at all. Sometimes the Runic thing will come in handy, but since it doesn't affect spells which are level appropriate or better, I'm guessing that it won't come up often.

Basically in its first three levels it hands out some mediocre defenses. A bonus to some saves, Mettle, and that thrice damned Runic ability that has so manu caveats and limitations that it will never ever come up. And that's almost excusable - I mean, you're 1st-3rd level, you have a Masterwork Longsword, WTF do you care?

And then... that's it. For your next um... rest of your whole life... you also don't get any offensive abilities. So at first level, you're walking in there with a sword, a chain shirt, heavy shield, and a bad attitude. Heck, the fact that you get a free masterwork sword is actually important. That's quality, even though the only other thing you have to reccomend your sorry ass is a decent Will Save.

And then it's all down hill forever because the class never provides any killer app. It never justifies its existence at any level. I have no idea what the point is supposed to be. I assume it's all based on a PS2 game somehow.

-Username17
User avatar
Cielingcat
Duke
Posts: 1453
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Cielingcat »

At level one they're much better off just inserting metallic objects into spellcasters than trying to absorb their spells. Doing 1d8+1.5xStr is much better than having an opposed roll to try to absorb their spell. The fact that 1d8+1.5 Str is on average more hp than a spellcaster has at 1st level means not hitting them is stupid. The fault isn't with the range, but with the fact that, as written, I'd rather be kicked in the nuts than use that ability. Of course, it provokes AoOs, so I'll get kicked in the nuts anyway. I guess it's a lose-lose situation.
CHICKENS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO COCAINE, SILKY HEN
Josh_Kablack wrote:You are not a unique and precious snowflake, you are just one more fucking asshole on the internet who presumes themselves to be better than the unwashed masses.
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

Okay so I am not the only one who saw those problems with the class. If you read through the thread I do bring up some of those points and also use what you all say too (Just a little less forceful) Thanks for the input.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1168919109[/unixtime]] I have no idea what the point is supposed to be. I assume it's all based on a PS2 game somehow.

-Username17


Close it's Final Fantasy 3/6 for the Super Nintendo. One of the character is a "Rune Knight" but it a hella lot better than this class.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Catharz
Knight-Baron
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Catharz »

Now that I think about it, the Spellthief might make a decent base for a "Rune Knight" as well, although the thief is obviously more rogue-like.

Here are some relevant Samurai abilities:
Ancestral Weaponry: Every culture with a Samurai tradition has a signature weapon that Samurai from that culture use. Whether it is the Spiked Chain of the Hobgoblin Khanate of Khadun or the Katana of the Human Empire of Rokugan, the weapon serves as a symbol of the office and prowess of the Samurai.
A samurai can only have one weapon designated as his Ancestral Weapon at a time, and this weapon must be a masterwork weapon exalted by the Samurai's warrior culture. He must perform a 24 hour ritual to call his ancestral spirits into the weapon and designate it as his Ancestral Weapon. This ritual costs 100 gp in incense and offerings, and once performed grants the following abilities:
-Counts as his Ancestral Weapon for all Samurai abilities.
-Has a minimum enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to his level divided by three (maximum of +5 for a samurai of 20th level or lower).
-The Ancestral weapon has double HPs and +10 Hardness, and has the Ghost Touch special
property.


Parry Magic (Su): At 8th level, a Samurai may use his Ancestral Weapon to parry magic targeted at him. When the Samurai is targeted by a spell or supernatural ability, he may take an Attacks of Opportunity against the targeted effect. If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this Attack of Opportunity, the effect does not affect him.



Cut Magic (Su): At 12th level, a Samurai may attack ongoing spell effects by attacking the square they are in for Area of Effect effects or the object or person for targeted effects (which does damage as normal to the object or person). This attack is handled like the Samurai's Parry Magic ability, but it only dispels a 10' by 10' section of an Area of Effect spell or spell-like ability.


Reflect Magic(Su) : At 16th level, an spell effect that would be dispelled by a successful use of the Samurai's Parry Magic ability can instead be reflected back on the caster, as per a spell turning effect.
MrWaeseL
Duke
Posts: 1249
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by MrWaeseL »

Anime picture in the class description.
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1169165928[/unixtime]]Anime picture in the class description.


Check the link to the class for that one.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Username17 »

Leress at [unixtime wrote:1169177252[/unixtime]]
MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1169165928[/unixtime]]Anime picture in the class description.


Check the link to the class for that one.


Ugh. Why would you do that to my eyes?

OP wrote:It's a support class (perhaps not of the kind you might prefer); offensive abilities shouldn't be front-loaded. So long as one continues to advance their rune knight level, Runic will always affect level appropriate spells. This class isn't meant to be taken as a dip.


WTF? If by "level appropriate spells" you mean "Bard Spells", then yes. If you mean "Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Monster Spells" then no. You're a first level character and you can only absorb a cantrip. You're a 5th level character and you can't absorb 3rd level spells.

But really, the sad fact of the matter is that it's not a support character at all. It provides effectively zero support to the rest of the party. It doesn't make them fight better or use skills better, or manage hit points better, or anything. The class is bad at everything and isn't good as a team player.

I have no idea what the author was thinking when he labeled it a support character. A character has to stand on their own and benefit the party at every level or they aren't worth playing.

Is there any mission that a 3rd level Rune Knight would be appropriate for? Any mission that a 1st or 5th level Rune Knight would be appropriate for? Her only unique ability is the ability to stop spellcasting half the time, except that it does not even work because an enemy Cleric is throwing spells that are too high level for Runic to affect.

Level caps, Caster Level checks, and very restrictive range limits all at the same time is a perfect trifecta that keeps that ability from ever being useful at any level.

-Username17
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

I am trying my best to get the message across to the author

At least this author is more understanding than these people
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=772491
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Username17 »

Dude why did you even bother with that one? Holy crap. It's just a pile of minor abilities that in aggregate almost make up for the fact that you have a shitty fighting style for several levels.

Look, before you can even discuss a character class you have to have a firm idea of:

  • How it fits into a four person party such that they win more often and better while that character is around.
  • How it faces opposition of its level such that it accomplishes anything at all.
  • How it is different from other classes.


Then, and only then, can you have a decent discussion about whether something is too powerful, or not powerful enough, or whatever.

The classes you have linked to are just... crap. They don't do anything.

The Rune Knight can sometimes stop spellcasting. But so what? Do I have to draw you a diagram where if you're fighting a Wizard and they sometimes get a spell off you still get your pasty whiteness handed to you? If all you do is make things uncomfortable for spellcasters and you don't even beat spellcasters, your entire existence is a joke.

The Blade Knight is just an exercise in wasting my damned time. It's not just "a pile of feats" it's a pile of feats that totally suck ass. The class doesn't do anything good ever. The fact that the author wasn't sure if it was better than a Core Fighter basically tells you everything you need to know. The only reason I could see for including it is if you fvcking required everyone with a good enough stat roll to play one to do so. That way the players who had rolled much better than the other players would get boned by playing a class that was 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag and then hopefully they wouldn't outshine the Rogue and maybe even vice versa.

-Username17
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1169256487[/unixtime]]Dude why did you even bother with that one? Holy crap. It's just a pile of minor abilities that in aggregate almost make up for the fact that you have a shitty fighting style for several levels.

Probably because I am a glutton for punishment

Look, before you can even discuss a character class you have to have a firm idea of:

  • How it fits into a four person party such that they win more often and better while that character is around.
  • How it faces opposition of its level such that it accomplishes anything at all.
  • How it is different from other classes.


Then, and only then, can you have a decent discussion about whether something is too powerful, or not powerful enough, or whatever.

*Files on a mental post-it note*

The classes you have linked to are just... crap. They don't do anything.

The Rune Knight can sometimes stop spellcasting. But so what? Do I have to draw you a diagram where if you're fighting a Wizard and they sometimes get a spell off you still get your pasty whiteness handed to you? If all you do is make things uncomfortable for spellcasters and you don't even beat spellcasters, your entire existence is a joke.

The Blade Knight is just an exercise in wasting my damned time. It's not just "a pile of feats" it's a pile of feats that totally suck ass. The class doesn't do anything good ever. The fact that the author wasn't sure if it was better than a Core Fighter basically tells you everything you need to know. The only reason I could see for including it is if you fvcking required everyone with a good enough stat roll to play one to do so. That way the players who had rolled much better than the other players would get boned by playing a class that was 10 pounds of shit in a five pound bag and then hopefully they wouldn't outshine the Rogue and maybe even vice versa.

-Username17

I feel the Rune Knight was good idea but need a lot of help, and I like Final Fantasy.

The Blade Knight is pure crap, no defending that class at all. I just posted that link to show everyone was on my nuts about saying that class sucks and not helping them to fix it.

Thanks for the insight on how to go about evaluating classes.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1169238340[/unixtime]]
I have no idea what the author was thinking when he labeled it a support character. A character has to stand on their own and benefit the party at every level or they aren't worth playing.


It's worse than that. You can actually absorb friendly spells too, meaning that the rune knight can end up hosing his friends at higher levels. Not to mention he's burning a move action to do it.

Runic ability should be a swift action to activate at least (becoming an immediate reaction ability at higher levels).

Also, get rid of the level cap as far as what spells you can absorb, you already have to make an opposed check against the caster level of the spell, that's really enough.

And as stated, this class needs way more abilities. Stuff like.

-Dispel magic weapon strikes
-Ability to cut through walls of force, ignore force armor
-Long range dispels
-Damage bonuses against spellcasting creatures.

But this isn't a 20 level concept. It's probably at best a 10 level PrC. If you try, you can probably fit it into a 5 level PrC.
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

Since the Rune Knight has changed a lot and I am waiting for the re-write

I present the Anti-Caster
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... 3[br][br]I also have a question. How who one go about making base class or a prestige class that is good with dealing with casters (arcane and divine)?
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Username17 »

Leress at [unixtime wrote:1170304853[/unixtime]]
I present the Anti-Caster


Why would you do that? Instead of killing your opponnt, you can force them to drop spells that they weren't going to use next round anyway, and then watch them use their other spells on you to kill your punk ass.

Sorry, I only read up to level 4, where the class abilities still hadn't added up to you being able to do shit against a Wizard of your level.

I also have a question. How who one go about making base class or a prestige class that is good with dealing with casters (arcane and divine)?


It's quite difficult. For one thing, many a game will go session after session without ever encountering a hostile spellcaster. i mean, you could fight Gnolls, then Bugbears, then Ogres, then Minotaurs, then Trolls, then Ettins, then Hill Giants, then Stone Giants, then Frost Giants, then Fire Giants... and that would be a pretty cool campaign that would quickly and easily take you from 1st level to 11th, where everything falls apart anyway.

And let's face it, when you do face spellcaster monsters, they have a distinct tendency to be critters like the Pixie - who gets Irresistable Dance like it aint no thing. That means that the ability to block level appropriate spells, or have level appropriate spell resistance is often worth precious close to nothing. It's not unusual for a CR 4 monster to throw an 8th level spell at caster level 8.

An anti-caster Monster has less to worry about. Chances are, a CR X monster is supposed to worry the fvck out of a Level X wizard, who casts spells of level X/2 at Caster Level X with a DC of 13 + 3X/4. That's a pretty damn good approximation. But from the player side, you have to contend with the fact that a CR 4 Pixie throws at Caster level 8, a CR 7 Liliend throws at Caster level 10, and a CR 8 Efreet throws at Caster Level 12. But you also have to come to terms with the fact that a CR 15 Gold Dragon throws spells at caster level 5, and a CR 17 Frost Giant Jarl throws spells at caster Level 8.

So from the player's side of the table, there are basically no benchmarks to work with to give you level appropriate anti-caster abilities. Spell Resistance of 10 + Character Level sounds OK, but against an Efreet it doesn't do crap.

---

So what can be done? Well, there are a couple of ways to go about it. A couple of generic possibilities that can be worked with:
  • Spellcasting has an arbitrary action mechanic. This is the core trick of the Races of War Fighter. Since Spellcasting is a Standard Action rather than an Attack Action, abilities that hurt "actions", hurt spellcasters disproportionately. Note, hwever, that spellcasters can lose their Move Action and not even notice. So Staggering is an anti-brute effect, while Disruption is an anti-caster effect.
  • Spellcasters have a tendency to be soft and squishy. Any fast damage output build is anti-caster by default. So a Rogue Catboy Bootblade Pouncer is by definition of more utility against a Wizard or a Pixie than a Barbarian or an Ogre.
  • Spells have an arbitrary targetting mechanic. Surrounding yourself in total darkness, for example, prevents many spells from activating, but merely reduces the effectiveness of swords. For those keeping track at home, deeper darkness is 100% cancelling charm monster, 50% cancelling a great axe, and 0% cancelling fireball. You can be creative here, a character with an arbitrary version of displacement that made him 100% immune to direct targetting and granted othrwise 20% concealment would be pretty plausible.
  • Arbitrary Immunities screw Casters more often than other monsters, because casters do so much more. If an immunity doesn't apply to one or more combat maneuvers directly, it is because it affects something that casters do. Therefore, a character who got a large pile of arbitrary immunities would have a tendency towards an anti-caster focus.


-Username17
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

Thanks
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by RandomCasualty »

Well, I don't think you can really design an anti-caster that's going to beat pixies and other uber casting monsters. They're like the closet troll but for casting instead of melee, and they're supposed to win at their element.

Pixies of course have extremely low hp, so anyone capable of seeing invisibility can easily pound one down.

In my opinion, an anti-caster is going to be someone who can negate the majority of the caster's gimmicks. Mainly you'd have stuff that prevents casters from casting defensively, prevents them from disengaging with you (including via teleportation), allows you to grapple casters with freedom of movement, allows you to walk through forcecages and walls of force.

And so on.

It's not remarkably difficult to kill a caster once you've closed with him. The hard part is beating the battle control spells.

But being an anti-caster shouldn't be an absolute fuck over to casters. If you can toss a counterspell as an immediate action that has a roughly 50/50 chance of working, that's actually ok as an anti-caster, because you can do other stuff. So long as you're not giving up your action to do other crap.
User avatar
Leress
Prince
Posts: 2770
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Leress »

Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.
User avatar
Judging__Eagle
Prince
Posts: 4671
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Leress at [unixtime wrote:1172354276[/unixtime]]http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... 3[br][br]A fighter "fix"


Doesn't count.

If it makes my head hurt, then it means that no one in my gaming group; and almost no other group, will use that material.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.

While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
shau
Knight-Baron
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by shau »

You know, the rune knight should be really easy to build. First make it a PRC and make it a wizard PRC that increases your caster level at every level because Celes was a magic user. Give her Runic ability a level appropriate chance to absorb incoming spells. You can keep it as a move action, because wizards really don't need a move action.

You end up with a class that trades familiar advancement and free feats for a situationally useful counterspell ability. Maybe require proficiency in longswords to keep the flavor.
Iaimeki
Journeyman
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Please take a look at this class

Post by Iaimeki »

Rune Knight
"I'm a general, not some opera floozy!"

Rune knights are arcane spellcasters who have mastered a means of using sword skills to defend against magic by absorbing spells directed at them, then converting those spells to their own use. Many lead armies or elite units, protecting their troops from hostile magic with their abilities. Most rune knights are wizards or sorcerers, since their focus on pure spellcasting benefits most from the rune knight's abilities, but occasionally other primary arcane spellcasters like beguilers or dread necromancers acquire enough martial prowess to become rune knights.

Prerequisites:
Skills: Spellcraft 8 ranks.
Spells: Arcane caster level 5th.

Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills: The rune knight's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points/Level: 2 + Int Modifier.
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good.

Level, Abilities:
1 Counterspell adept, Mage Slayer, martial gestures, sword focus, +1 arcane spellcasting level
2 Runic, +1 arcane spellcasting level
3 Runic strike, +1 arcane spellcasting level
4 Runic spell resistance, +1 arcane spellcasting level
5 Interrupt casting 1/day, +1 arcane spellcasting level

The following are class features of the rune knight prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rune knights gain proficiency with light, medium, and heavy armor, shields and tower shields [or great shields, for those using RoW rules], and all simple and martial weapons.

Spellcasting: Every level, a rune knight casts spells (including gaining any new spell slots and spell knowledge) as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she had previous to gaining that level.

Counterspell Adept (Ex): A rune knight gains a competence bonus equal to her class level on dispel checks and Spellcraft checks.

Mage Slayer: A rune knight gains Mage Slayer as a bonus feat. This feat and any other feats that require it as a prerequisite do not reduce her effective caster level. If she already has Mage Slayer, she may select any fighter [or Combat, for those using RoW rules] feat she meets the prerequisites for.

Martial Gestures (Ex): A rune knight can make the required gestures for arcane spells with somatic components and doesn't suffer from arcane spell failure while wielding a sword or similar bladed weapon.

Sword Focus (Ex): A rune knight may use her sword as an arcane focus in place of inexpensive material components or foci.

Runic (Su): Starting at 2nd level, as a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a rune knight who is wielding a sword or similar bladed weapon can attempt to counterspell all spells cast and spell-likes abilities used within 60 feet of herself until the beginning of her next turn. She must attempt to counterspell all spells and spell-like abilities, whether cast by allies or enemies.

Unlike readying a normal counterspell action, when using runic, a rune knight doesn't need to have an appropriate spell or dispel magic available. Instead, whenever any caster attempts to cast a spell or creature attempts to use a spell-like ability, she makes a dispel check against the spell or spell-like ability: normally, this is her highest arcane caster level + 1d20 + her class level versus a DC of 11 + the spell's or spell-like ability's caster level. (Unlike dispel magic, this dispel check has no cap.) If she succeeds, she absorbs the spell or spell-like ability, and it has no effect, as if she'd countered it. If she prepares spells, she may regain a spell of equal or lower level to the spell or spell-like ability she absorbed with runic, as if she'd used a pearl of power. If she casts spontaneously, she may instead regain a spell slot of equal or lower level, though she can't exceed her normal daily allowance from her class and ability score.

Runic Strike (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, whenever a rune knight damages a spellcaster with a sword or similar bladed weapon, that spellcaster loses access to a spell or spell slot, as if he'd taken a negative level, and the rune knight may regain a prepared spell or spell slot as if she'd absorbed the lost spell with runic.

Runic Spell Resistance (Su): Starting at 4th level, a rune knight gains spell resistance equal to her highest arcane caster level + 10. Any time a spell or spell-like ability fails to penetrate her spell resistance, whether it comes from this ability or any other source, she may regain a prepared spell or a spell slot as if she'd absorbed it with runic.

Interrupt Casting (Su): Beginning at 5th level, a rune knight may activate runic as an immediate action once per day.
Post Reply