A funny thing about Binding and the Gate/Negative Plane Trap

[User3]

You can cast it on yourself to make yourself permanently immune to being taken to other planes against your will. Just set the area for the prison effect to "the plane" and set the escape conditions to "when I feel like it" and you cannot be moved from the area unless you feel like it (as per the spell).

Gate-trap immunity. Cool, neh?

[The_Hanged_Man]

IIRC, nothing says another creature can't take the called creature from the "trap," or even call the called creature while it's doing tasks you've set it on. The Binding/Ally/GAte spells just prevent the called creature from breaking it - and even taht gets iffy.

For instance, I could call a Trumpet Archon to attack the BBEG, then the BBEG could learn its name, go to the NEP, and Gate the Trumpet Archon to the NEP (or just cast dismissal). Nothing prevents the BBEG from messing w/ my called creature, right?

Also, I don't think you can set the "trap" area to be a whole plane, since the trap is just a Magic Circle, which is only 10' radius IIRC. Gate doesn't work the same way.

[User3]

You are confused.

I was talking about the 8th level spell Binding, not the Planar Binding spells.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Doesn't that spell do all sorts of bad thigns to you, like put you to sleep or chain you up or turn you real small?

IIRC, you could put somebody into a prison, but nothing stopped anybody else from taking that person out. Could you quote the language you think allows this to limit other people's ability to mess w/ you? I'm not that familiar w/ the spell.

[User3]

Binding
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: One minute
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: See text (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
A binding spell creates a magical restraint to hold a creature. The target gets an initial saving throw only if its Hit Dice equal at least one-half your caster level.
You may have as many as six assistants help you with the spell. For each assistant who casts suggestion, your caster level for this casting of binding increases by 1. For each assistant who casts dominate animal, dominate person, or dominate monster, your caster level for this casting of binding increases by a number equal to one-third of that assistant’s level, provided that the spell’s target is appropriate for a binding spell. Since the assistants’ spells are cast simply to improve your caster level for the purpose of the binding spell, saving throws and spell resistance against the assistants’ spells are irrelevant. Your caster level determines whether the target gets an initial Will saving throw and how long the binding lasts. All binding spells are dismissible.
Regardless of the version of binding you cast, you can specify triggering conditions that end the spell and release the creature whenever they occur. These triggers can be as simple or elaborate as you desire, but the condition must be reasonable and have a likelihood of coming to pass. The conditions can be based on a creature’s name, identity, or alignment but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, Hit Dice, or hit points don’t qualify. Once the spell is cast, its triggering conditions cannot be changed. Setting a release condition increases the save DC (assuming a saving throw is allowed) by 2.
If you are casting any of the first three versions of binding (those with limited durations), you may cast additional binding spells to prolong the effect, since the durations overlap. If you do so, the target gets a saving throw at the end of the first spell’s duration, even if your caster level was high enough to disallow an initial saving throw. If the creature succeeds on this save, all the binding spells it has received are broken.
The binding spell has six versions. Choose one of the following versions when you cast the spell.
Chaining: The subject is confined by restraints that generate an antipathy spell affecting all creatures who approach the subject, except you. The duration is one year per caster level. The subject of this form of binding is confined to the spot it occupied when it received the spell.
Slumber: This version causes the subject to become comatose for as long as one year per caster level. The subject does not need to eat or drink while slumbering, nor does it age. This form of binding is more difficult to cast than chaining, making it slightly easier to resist. Reduce the spell’s save DC by 1.
Bound Slumber: This combination of chaining and slumber lasts for as long as one month per caster level. Reduce the save DC by 2.
Hedged Prison: The subject is transported to or otherwise brought within a confined area from which it cannot wander by any means. The effect is permanent. Reduce the save DC by 3.
Metamorphosis: The subject assumes gaseous form, except for its head or face. It is held harmless in a jar or other container, which may be transparent if you so choose. The creature remains aware of its surroundings and can speak, but it cannot leave the container, attack, or use any of its powers or abilities. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while metamorphosed, nor does it age. Reduce the save DC by 4.
Minimus Containment: The subject is shrunk to a height of 1 inch or even less and held within some gem, jar, or similar object. The binding is permanent. The subject does not need to breathe, eat, or drink while contained, nor does it age. Reduce the save DC by 4.
You can’t dispel a binding spell with dispel magic or a similar effect, though an antimagic field or Mage’s disjunction affects it normally. A bound extraplanar creature cannot be sent back to its home plane due to dismissal, banishment, or a similar effect.
Components: The components for a binding spell vary according to the version of the spell, but they always include a continuous chanting utterance read from the scroll or spellbook page containing the spell, somatic gestures, and materials appropriate to the form of binding used. These components can include such items as miniature chains of special metals, soporific herbs of the rarest sort (for slumber bindings), a bell jar of the finest crystal, and the like.
In addition to the specially made props suited to the specific type of binding (cost 500 gp), the spell requires opals worth at least 500 gp for each HD of the target and a vellum depiction or carved statuette of the subject to be captured.

Bold mine.

The version of the spell I've highlighted only talks about a "confined area" which I am positing could be a plane.

The last bolded section also shows how the spell can be used to "naturalize" an extradimensional creature.

[User3]

The sections I highlighted also show how the spell can be used to send creatures to other planes and trap them there in the style of prison dimensions.

[The_Hanged_Man]

One thing. The spell says the bound creature "can't be sent back to its home plane." By definition, Gate as a calling spell only works on extraplanar creatures - it has no ability to send something back to its home plane anyway. Otherwise, interesting.

[User3]

Well, the Hedged Prison version of the spell won't let a creature "wander by any means" from the confined area. If the confined area is a plane, then you can't be Gated from it.

Prime creatures are also extraplanar in regards to the Negative Energy Plane(and any non-Prime plane), so ordinarily you can Gate anything while on the NEG.

The "naturalization effect" of the binding is just a general rule to handle all the other possible effects of the spell(like Metamorphosis, which turns a creature into your stationary information source, since it can talk but has no power).

[The_Hanged_Man]

It doesn't let the "creature" wander, implying the creature can't move itself, but it can be moved. DM call IMO.

[User3]

"Cannot wander by any means" seems pretty clear to me.

"Any means" would have to include having someone move you, otherwise this spell that cannot be dispelled can be broken by simply summoning a monster and having it drag you out of the binding.

[Essence]

Look up "wander".

[Username17]

In this case it means the third one, to go astray from a fixed course. The course, in this case, would be the prison. So you can't go astray from that by any means. So yeah, it works.

The real question is: is it worth it? I mean, you could just wear dimensional shackles all the time and get the same effect without a ten minute ritual every time you returned home. Also, the shackles would protect you if you decided to go to the grocery store, while the Binding would not.

-Username17

[User3]

Dimensional Shackes can be dispelled, and the Binding cannot.

The Binding can have a triggering condition, meaning if you do need to leave the Plane, you can do so without taking an action to remove the shackles.

The Binding can set the "confined area" to your entire world, which is well in range of the grocery store.

The Binding is not an expensive piece of magical equipment, so your whole party can benefit from multiple versions.

Using Binding as a spell-like ability(there are several ways to do this) means that you can do it as a standard action.

[Username17]

Dimensional Shackes can be dispelled, and the Binding cannot.

Dimensional Shackles can be suppressed with a targetted dispel effect. So what?

It only lasts a couple of rounds. So they hit your shackles with a targetted dispel that works, then they planeshift themselves somewhere far away, and then they put you in a gate trap if your shackles haven't refreshed... of course you are punching them in the face the whole time and it's rather unlikely to work.

Death traps which involve people slugging it out with me at close range and giving me saving throws before they can take effect don't really bother me at all.

-Username17

[User3]

Now you are just being argumentative. The fact that a Binding is in all ways better than an expensive piece of magical equipment cannot be lost on you.

[Username17]

It's not in all ways better. You need a minute and an expensive 8th level spell slot every time you want to put it back on. Compared to the dimensional shackles which you pick up as a move equivalent action.

I'm not saying that it's a completely asstastic tactic or anything, but I am still going to use the dimensional shackles instead if I can get 'em. Dimensional Shackles are available at a lower level and are quicker and more convenient to put on and take off.

The hedged prison doesn't say how big it is, but it also doesn't say that you can simply choose any area you want. The confined area is one which you might be "transported to" - which as I understand it means that the location of the hedged prison is probably fixed. The "Hedged Prison Dimension" if you will. So if what you want is to sit around making your golem without interruption or assassination, then this is definately part of the process (the other part being Mind Blank).

But for adventuring, I'll take the shackles. I can put them in my backpack when I want to move around and wear them on my arm when I don't. It's tremendously convenient, and totally beats the crap out of a dissmissable spell that takes a minute to cast every time I want it up again.

-Username17

[User3]

Dimensional Shackles have to bind you to work. Picking up an item(move action) won't activate them. IT'll take a standard. And you are bound in shackes, which sounds pretty inconvenient. Bidning can be set to triggering conditions like "when I say the word 'fudge.' (free action)"

Your "prison dimension" is a bit of a stretch, since it is not explicitly stated. If every "confined area" is a prison dimension, then I'm living in one right now.

I can also name two Dungeon adventures where the Hedged Prison was a room.

[Crissa]

Well, some of those dimentions can be the size of a postage stamp. Like the one in your rope-trick.

And for a godlike being, being stuck to one dimention would be right annoying.

-Crissa