Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

The homebrew forum

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
canamrock
1st Level
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by canamrock »

This is a rough draft of an idea I've had for some time to make the true dragons a more viable option for players, and to help capture some of the flavor of the 2E "Council of Wyrms" setting. I'll start with the Red Dragon, since I'm gonna be using them in a setting I'm working on.

Base Template:

The Red Dragon hatches with a significant amount of phyiscal capacity, as is befitting of its kind. A hatchling Red Dragon is a 4th level Dragon, granting it the following:

* Str +6, Con +4, +1 to any stat (4th level bonus)
* 4d12 Hit Points (3d12 + 12 + (4 * Con Mod) for PCs)
* BAB +4
* Base Save Bonuses of +5 each (all are high progression)
* 7 * Int + 42 Skill Points (List in MM)
* Starting Feat, as well as one for its third HD
* Breath Weapon as listed (Save DC 12 + Cha Mod)
* All other typical red dragon special qualities (as in MM)

Class Template:

Dragon PCs are allowed to take normal class levels instead of Dragon levels. These levels stack with their racial levels for determining effects such as the Breath Weapon's save DC. Additionally, Dragon PC's raise the size of their class hit dice by one (d4 -> d6, etc.; d12 -> d8 + d6).

Aging Template:

Upon reaching the 10th level, and every three class levels taken (after the four starting levels), the character must pay a number of XP equal to 1000 * its new Age Category before gaining any more class levels. When this XP cost is paid, the PC may enter 'Dragon Sleep' taking a number of months equal to the new Age Category. Upon reawakening, the PC will be modified to reflect having acquired the abilities of its new age category.

Starting with the Young Age Category, if the PC has no spellcasting class levels, it is treated as if it were a first level sorcerer, and it gains an additional caster level with each category. It gains no other benefits of the sorcerer class (except the ability to change spells known). Alternatively, if the PC has levels in the Sorcerer or Wizard class, these bonus levels stack to determine its spellcasting capacity. (Some monstrous feats will be allowed to be taken as Fighter Bonus Feats, though I can't say which exactly yet.)

And there we have it, a rough design for the progression. All that needs to be tested is the general balance of the progression against normal PCs of equivalent given XP values (the XP costs count against gaining levels). It's possible that the Dragon may end up being a bit superior to normal PCs if given a few Sorcerer and EK levels, but it's tough to say. It looks like it should be mostly balanced up to the Adult Age Category, taking the PC well into Epic.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by Username17 »

Additionally, Dragon PC's raise the size of their class hit dice by one (d4 -> d6, etc.; d12 -> d8 + d6).


This is one of the shittiest mechanics ever, and porting it over from the Half Dragon template is the suck. I mean, it's just like getting an extra hit point, unless you take a level of a class whose whole point is that you get hit points in which case you get balls. Why would you do that? It's unbalanced by definition. Granted, it doesn't actually make very much difference, but it is totally unbalanced.

Upon reaching the 10th level, and every three class levels taken (after the four starting levels), the character must pay a number of XP equal to 1000 * its new Age Category before gaining any more class levels. When this XP cost is paid, the PC may enter 'Dragon Sleep' taking a number of months equal to the new Age Category. Upon reawakening, the PC will be modified to reflect having acquired the abilities of its new age category.


So instead of getting a level, I can write all the XP for the level off my character sheet, gain a level's worth of abilities, and continue gaining XP at the enhanced rate of being a "lower level". Sign me the fvck up!

Seriously, XP cost is the shittiest mechanic for character progression ever, because it's by definition massively superior to level progression.

All that needs to be tested is the general balance of the progression against normal PCs of equivalent given XP values (the XP costs count against gaining levels).


That doesn't even make any sense. Seriously, it doesn't. Why not just write a class "being an older dragon" that gives you various specific bonuses, a hit die, some kind of save progression, etc. Then you could make it be a PrC where taking each new level of it required you to have a certain number of levels of other classes.

I kinda think I know what you are getting at, but the mechanic of "XP costs that count as if you had gained a level" is just perplexing. The XP chart works like this:

You have N XP, you are X level.

That's it. If you reduce N, you are the same or lower level, not a higher level. If you try to make a system by which you reduce N and X goes up, the system will catch fire and explode.

-Username17
canamrock
1st Level
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by canamrock »

For the HD increaser, you'd prefer something like a non-additive increase? d4's stay the same or rise to d6, but d10's become 2d8 or the like?

And for the XP costs, I've been stuck trying to come up with a balance between LA (which is nearly always too much to charge) and using raw XP costs to prop up costs. It'd make me think that for purposes of gaining XP and treasure from encounters, I could just use the UA's system of deriving the total XP earned into its equivalent level. So, if you've spent 14,000 XP to become a starting Young Adult, you'd have a total of 185,000 XP, putting you just shy of where most PC's become 20th level. When the dragon kills something and gains that 5k, it counts as 20th level for treasure by level and APL purposes, but still counts as 19th level for all other purposes. In other words, a reduced LA setup.

Even without that, however, it seems that it would end up being a lot like a Wizard who spends XP to make magic items. It would be exactly the same problem (albeit with some gold the Wiz spends) when one sits down and keeps at the Nth level by burning thousands of XP to create insane magic items. One works as well as the other, in the end.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by Username17 »

Canamrock wrote:One works as well as the other, in the end.


Which since the other doesn't work at all on close inspection, makes us question your inclusion of it here.

-Username17
canamrock
1st Level
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by canamrock »

Using the racial template XP as a weaker LA, whereby it raises the ECL of the dragon PC without keeping its HD in perfect sync, it should work to maintain balance for the templated PC overall. I need to do some testing to work out exact numbers, in any case.

The notion of using a set of mini PrCs to represent the aging processes might be another way to cover the scaling of the dragon PC. One of my chief concerns in the design, however, was to keep the base scaling of the PC dragons roughly in-line with the NPC dragon as presented in the MM. I'll admit that I dropped the spellcasting slightly to preserve the caster level balance; I'd assume an NPC dragon would have a mix of Sorcerer and Warrior levels to look as it does in the MM using this setup. Something like requiring every 3rd level starting with the 10th be taken in Red Dragon PrC levels could be in order, but this would end up looking a lot clunkier than the template does, from what I can envision at this point.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by Username17 »

but this would end up looking a lot clunkier than the template does


Based on the clunkiness of your current system, that's difficult to imagine. Your current system makes up entirely new XP rules which are not fully explained. You seem to have a "current XP value" and a "virtual XP value", or something, and I still don't understand how it's supposed to work, but I'm damn sure that it doesn't work like anything in the core rules.

Based on your explanation of it, it seems very difficult to adjudicate, and once you start factoring stuff like level loss, it seems like it's going to be wholly intractable. I mean, what the hell is supposed to happen to your virtual XP that have been spent when you lose a level and your total XP is set to half way to the level you currently have (a total value which I point out, is in fact larger than the current total of XP you had when you had gained your last level and bought the next age template). What happens when you get the level back with restoration, pumping you up to more XP than you have so far accumulated?

-Username17
canamrock
1st Level
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by canamrock »

First, after looking the increase in XP cost over time, I figured that it would begin to cost far too much per age category for what bonuses they receive. To begin to deal with the issues you've raised, it looked easier to just stick a +1 LA in with the starting character. If someone's using VCL, I'd pop out the extra caster levels from the age categories and just let the Dragon HD count for that.

Anyhow, using raw XP values for an ECL determination is suprisingly easy. Since each class level gained costs 1000 * current total class levels XP, if there's no adjustments, everything works exactly the same. XP spent for things such as the template count against the character's total XP value for finding the character's ECL, but not for gaining class levels. So the Red Dragon with 190,000 XP would be counted as a 20th level character when looking at APL for CR, and stuff like that. However, for actual CL, he's just barely into his 19th class level. In other words, you can keep track of two XP scores - racial and developmental, where XP spent on the templates isn't recorded in the D column, and vice versa. When spending XP, you pull from whichever is active (you can't raise template and class at the same time, for ease of calculations).

For permanent level loss and restoration, you simply ignore the templates entirely, draining instead from the DXP instead. Simple. In the odd case where the template was the active buy-in when the level(s) are lost, those XP remain locked in place until the levels are restored. If, for some reason, a character can somehow get to the 13th level, lose 3 levels, regain them, and have Greater Restoration cast upon him within the necessary timeframe, all unpaid templates must be paid before gaining any new levels after those restored.

If you have more issues with that system, I'd like to take it to its own thread, since it is a separate creation. Otherwise, I'd like to see if there are any other comments on the racial template itself.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by Username17 »

XP spent for things such as the template count against the character's total XP value for finding the character's ECL, but not for gaining class levels.


One of us is not understanding the basic rubric by which XP accumulates. XP that goes into having a class, or in fact into "counting" for anything is not "spent" - it is "accumulated". XP which is "spent" doesn't count for shit, because it's gone.

That's the difference between "spending" XP and keeping XP towards gaining levels. In the first you don't have it anymore, and in the second you do.

If you want XP to count for things and not give out extra choosable class levels - give a mandatory class or a level adjustment. Do not make up an etirely new mechanic based on XP expenditure, because that's not what XP expenditure means.

-Username17
canamrock
1st Level
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by canamrock »

For XP purposes, spent and accumulated do not have to be mutually exclusive concepts. Perhaps the word better used for XP devoted to the template cost is 'invested'. Again relating back to magic item creation, even though a PC may have tens of thousands of XP available, the rules limit the amount of XP expendable to an amount equal to the amount required to reach the last granted level. In other words, you can't touch the XP 'invested' into the class levels. Effects like level draining override the investment protection. The template works similarly then, the XP not being spent in the same context as spending XP to cast a spell; rather, it's invested away into the template, much as it is with class levels. I apologize for using the same word for two separate concepts before.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by Username17 »

For XP purposes, spent and accumulated do not have to be mutually exclusive concepts.


But they are. XP spent is the same as XP lost, not the same as XP accumulated - it's completely opposite. It might seem like a subtle semantic point, but it's really fvcking important. It's like the difference between Regeneration and Fast Healing - they both have a number, and their common english usage are close that they could have been defined in game as identical, but they were not!

If you use the wrong terminology your game mechanics don't work, end of discussion.

Perhaps the word better used for XP devoted to the template cost is 'invested'.


:wtf:

Seriously, what the fvck?

How about instead you use the level gaining mechanic present within the system which already works and makes sense - gaining levels! What a brilliant concept, you use the mechanics already present in the game rather than making up some convoluted alternate system that you can't even describe.

You still haven't even begun to adequately explain how this XP investment would work in the face of level loss (hell, even Level Adjustment doesn't work in the face of level loss, so I'm not exactly brimming with confidence in your ability to make this work either).

If you want to treat the character as a higher level, make them a higher level. This involves only the writing of a level progression, which is an ass load less difficult than whatever the hell it is you are trying to accomplish with this train wreck.

-Username17
canamrock
1st Level
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by canamrock »

Well, I'm fairly certain you're not really reading my posts at this point...

I already stated I was going to be using a simple +1 LA for the Red Dragon's starting template instead of this setup for testing purposes. I also explained how the system would work in the case of level loss that would handle the problem better than LA. Now, if you want to just complain about that part of the original idea, I can start a new topic.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by Username17 »

Oh, I read it. I was unimpressed. You said:

In other words, you can't touch the XP 'invested' into the class levels. Effects like level draining override the investment protection.


Which means... what the hell does it mean?

When you lose a level, you lose the highest level of your highest class. These dragon characters have a growing body of Level Adjustment, which isn't defined as a level at all, and therefore can't be lost. And even if it was a level, it's still almost guaranteed to be your lowest leveled class, which in turn means that when you lost a level it is virtually impossible for you to end up losing one of these growth-based "notlevel levels".

But you said that it was immune to the restriction that you couldn't lose the XP invested into them when you lost a level - which as I understand your use of double-negation, means that you can lose the LA just like it was a level.

But you can't, because the rules for level loss don't actually support that for several reasons.

When I said you hadn't begun to adequately explain it, I had in fact read it all the way through. It's just not adequately explained.

-Username17
canamrock
1st Level
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Red Dragon PC - Template Progression System

Post by canamrock »

Okay, I'll try to put a cleaner explanation in a separate thread. We can move that part of the discussion there.
Post Reply