Desdan's Revised Magic System

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Desdan_Mervolam
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Desdan's Revised Magic System

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

D&D Magic version 3.Rup

Intent: To rework magic to function along a series of design assumptions

Assumption 1: Magic is easier to balance below fifth spell-level, so the system should be made to work with the d20 Modern 3-tier class system.

Assumption 2: Cantrips should be outright at-will abilities that take an attack action to resolve. They should do no more than one point of damage at range and 1d3 points of damage at touch and require a touch attack to resolve. Daze, Mage Hand, Resistance, light, Arcane Mark and Prestidigitation should work normally otherwise.

Assumption 3: Distinction between Arcane and Divine magic will be removed. The only division between types of spells will be Rituals and regular Spells

Assumption 3a: Spells that require a casting time of longer than one round or are otherwise cast during downtime shouldn't require a spell-slot to cast These spells should be reworked into ritual-style magic that can be performed on the fly, take 10 minutes to several days to complete, require no spell-slot use by the character but are balanced by requiring a Spellcraft check, expensive material components, and ability damage.

Assumption 3b: Regular Spells should require no preparation, consume no material components, and should not require any spells known. Spells will be grouped together on themes like “Healing” and “Movement” and “Elemental”, have levels that go 1-5 and having a spell group gives you access to all spells within those groups. Each spellcasting class will give out Spell Group Rankings anywhere from once every two levels to as frequently as perhaps three times a level. Each ranking will give access to the next level of a spell group. The maximum spell level you could cast would be equal to one-half your class level, rounded up.

Assumption 3c: You cannot have more than one class that grants a spellcasting progression.

Assumption 3d: Spell slots will be as per PHB Wizard, with bonus slots given out for high charisma.

Assumption 4: Spellcaster concepts such as “Necromancer” “Abjurer” and “Battle-Mage” will be classes in their own right, as well as a generalist magic-user class.

Notes:
  • This is a project that's been stewing in my head for some time now. I think I've finally got it defined enough to start some real work on it. I hope to update it periodically with material. Any questions and comments are entirely welcome.

  • It's my hope to be OGL-Compliant with this. Help on that front is appreciated as well.

  • This system would be for my homebrew game, which also included d20 Modern’s Occupation system. Therefore you would be able to gain access to skills like Spellcraft at first level as a permanent class skill.

  • I’m toying with the idea of setting the maximum spell level you can be capable of casting to a static Fifth, instead of a level-dependant cap. Instead, each level beyond what you would normally be able to cast spells from, instead of having the number of spell slots listed as “-“, would be listed as “0”. Therefore, a character with five levels of a spellcaster class who has managed to secure five spell-levels of Healing, would be able to cast fourth level healing spells only if she had a charisma of 18 or better, and would only be able to cast fifth level Healing spells if she had a charisma of 20 or better. Alternately, I may make this a class feature unique to the generalist mage.

  • "3.Rup" is an in-joke. my real name is Kris Ruppert, alot of people call me "Rup" (rhymes with "loop").

  • I need to create some new terms to clear some things up. Any help there would be appreciated.

  • I will eventually be coming up with rules for casting spells level 6-9 that aren't ritualized, but I don't consider that of core importance to the system.


-K. Ivan Ruppert, (AKA Desdan Mervolam)
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
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Re: Desdan's Revised Magic System

Post by Username17 »

Not all of this is criticism, some of this I would just like to see explained better:

Cantrips should be outright at-will abilities that take an attack action to resolve. They should do no more than one point of damage at range and 1d3 points of damage at touch and require a touch attack to resolve.


Why do you assume that a spell that doesn't cost anything to use should be so much worse than swinging a sword (which also doesn't cost anything to use). There is an opportunity cost for using shocking grasp over and above the spell slot it's using up. You have to take the spellcasting class, and you spend your action.

As such, the ability to touch people for energy damage should be a viable attack mode, on par with swinging a sword or shooting an arrow. It has the same in-combat cost (one attack action), but has its own unique permanent cost (an entire character level instead of a small pile of gold).

It's basically a Monk's Unarmed Attack ability - and like that ability, it sucks. But it shouldn't.

require no spell-slot use by the character but are balanced by requiring a Spellcraft check, expensive material components, and ability damage.


Spellcraft Checks and Material Components have not successfully balanced anything in the past, how will this be different?

Each ranking will give access to the next level of a spell group.


This seems like it would force people to put all their eggs in one basket. After all, if you don't get your Healing 3 by the time you get 3rd level spells, you won't even be able to use your third level spells. So diversity will be punished by not even being able to cast higher level spells when you get them. Ouch.

The maximum spell level you could cast would be equal to one-half your class level, rounded up.


So after a complete overhaul of the magic system, multiclassed spellcasters still suck?

You cannot have more than one class that grants a spellcasting progression


Why not? You can mix two classes which give a BAB progression. Why not have the caster levels stack if you want to have a multiple themed spellcaster?

As things currently seem to stand, there doesn't seem to be any reason to give people "choices" in how they apply their new spell picks when they level - since it isn't really a choice at all. In practice they choose at first and second level and every single spell category pick they ever get after that is just keeping those initial picks from falling behind the curve. I mean, you could choose to diversify at 7th and 8th level, but then you couldn't cast 4th level spells - when your major class feature for hose levels was gaining 4th level slots. So the "choice" seems to be "keep doing what you were doing or get kicked in the bean bag".

Since the choice is so very stark, I don't see why you are even presenting players with the illusion of having one - since for all practical considerations they do not.

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Re: Desdan's Revised Magic System

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1077037641[/unixtime]]Not all of this is criticism, some of this I would just like to see explained better:


Thanks, I appreciate it

Why do you assume that a spell that doesn't cost anything to use should be so much worse than swinging a sword (which also doesn't cost anything to use). There is an opportunity cost for using shocking grasp over and above the spell slot it's using up. You have to take the spellcasting class, and you spend your action.

As such, the ability to touch people for energy damage should be a viable attack mode, on par with swinging a sword or shooting an arrow. It has the same in-combat cost (one attack action), but has its own unique permanent cost (an entire character level instead of a small pile of gold).

It's basically a Monk's Unarmed Attack ability - and like that ability, it sucks. But it shouldn't.


I have considered that, and I'm still considering that. In fact, none of this is written in stone yet, since assumptions often prove wrong.

I'm not sure I would ever put elemental damage cantrips truely on level with a sword, but considering that there wouldn't be sneak-attack to piggyback the spells onto, I might consider a powerup of them.

Let me explain something I forgot to put in the original proposal: Since this system is made to work with the d20Modern class system, there is no real way to get spellcasting before level 4. One of the prerequisites for these classes would be a feat that grants anywhere from three to all cantrips as above. I have not yet written this feat, I'm not terribly certian how it would work though.

Spellcraft Checks and Material Components have not successfully balanced anything in the past, how will this be different?


Granted. I'm not expecting these factors alone to balance a spell. I will be taking the oppertunity to tweak some spells. Additionally, that's why I'm posting these here. I'm hoping that if I miss something serious, that the people here and at Nifty may be able to catch it


This seems like it would force people to put all their eggs in one basket. After all, if you don't get your Healing 3 by the time you get 3rd level spells, you won't even be able to use your third level spells. So diversity will be punished by not even being able to cast higher level spells when you get them. Ouch.


That's pretty much it. The generalist wizard class will get scads of Spell-Ranks (Currently 3/level, enough to master six spellgroups over his career, and will possibly get more depending on how many spellgroups there wind up being), but specialists are pretty much supposed to do just that: specialize.

So after a complete overhaul of the magic system, multiclassed spellcasters still suck?


To be blunt, yes. However, I don't currently see how it can be helped. Note though that concepts like magical rogue will have their own specific advanced classes dedicated to them, so that people won't be forced to bouce back and forth between classes to make a magical rogue character. I just need to make sure that I don't make the "Magical Rogue" so good and so easy that it removes the need for a normal rogue class.

Why not? You can mix two classes which give a BAB progression. Why not have the caster levels stack if you want to have a multiple themed spellcaster?


The reason is largely for simplicity's sake right now, this may or may not be removed later. Hopefully the classes themselves will be diverse enough to remove most need for multiclassing to achieve your concept.

As things currently seem to stand, there doesn't seem to be any reason to give people "choices" in how they apply their new spell picks when they level - since it isn't really a choice at all. In practice they choose at first and second level and every single spell category pick they ever get after that is just keeping those initial picks from falling behind the curve. I mean, you could choose to diversify at 7th and 8th level, but then you couldn't cast 4th level spells - when your major class feature for hose levels was gaining 4th level slots. So the "choice" seems to be "keep doing what you were doing or get kicked in the bean bag".

Since the choice is so very stark, I don't see why you are even presenting players with the illusion of having one - since for all practical considerations they do not.


You do have a good point. My idea was to get access to different spell-groups at different levels and to have different levels of proficency with each. I haven't exactly managed to pull that off, since as you mentioned most casters will choose the entirety of their casting groups by their second caster level. This is possible in my system, but not optimal. However, the only way I can see to make it work the way I envision it on a regular basis is to rewrite spells from the ground up. Advice?

Again, thanks for your input, Frank

-Desdan
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Re: Desdan's Revised Magic System

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

I've been thinking about it, and I think that the problem would be alleviated somewhat if I give from one to four spell level points per level. This would allow every class to keep up with at least one spell group in order to use their highest-level spell slots, and would also allow them to use the other five spell level points to either master a second spell group or to scatter around by dabbling in a few other spell-groups.

-Desdan
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Re: Desdan's Revised Magic System

Post by Username17 »

To be blunt, yes. However, I don't currently see how it can be helped.


I've come to the conclusion that maximum spell castable should be based on Character Level, not on class level.

If the Magical classes give enough swag that you actually want to take more levels in them, more power to it.

My idea was to get access to different spell-groups at different levels and to have different levels of proficency with each.


What if taking a single level of a spellcasting class let you cast one or more spell categories at your maximum level, and then taking further levels allowed you to get additional secondary spell sets at lower levels.

Heck, since you are forcing people to take other classes first, they could start with secondary ones and gradually upgrade them to full power.

-Username17
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