Complete Divine Preview

[Essence]

At, least, until you start casting Heal, at which point healing actually becomes useful in combat.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I wonder what the Sacred Fist will look like?

One of the players in my group wants to retire his old character, he's a bit bored with it, and he was thinking monk/cleric. IF the PrC is now, you know, worth taking now, I'll steer him that way, If not, I'll just tell him to take one level in monk the rest in cleric. (The monk part is non-negotiable, this person doesn't play anything without at least one level of monk, for whatever reason.)

[The_Hanged_Man]

1084506226[/unixtime]]At, least, until you start casting Heal, at which point healing actually becomes useful in combat.

And of course, Heal is the only healing spell clerics can't cast spontaneously.

[Essence]

Isn't that just teh suk? I've changed that IMC.

[User3]

The Sacred Fist bites.

The feat prerequisites are a kick in the ass, you gain essentially no relevant class features, and you're down two spellcasting levels. And you can't use weapons. Ever.

On the plus side, you can do utterly freakish amounts of damage if you're polymorph any objected into an octopus.

I suggest using my version of the Sacred Fist, even though it pretty much blows.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Well, I don't want the only reasonable way for him to do anything effective in combat is to have himself turned into an octopus, unless I make a PrC that just goes ahead and does just that.

I think I'll tell him to go monk 1/cleric 11.

[Lago_AM3P]

Still, with all of those damn spells in that book, I bet I could make a better unarmed combatant with cleric levels than Sacred Fist levels could ever simulate.

[Username17]

Do you consider it to be sufficiently martial artsy if he just uses a quarterstaff?

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Yes. And even without getting into spikes-cheese, there is seriously no reason to be a sacred fist with this book if you use the druidic spell list as written.

Or just the cleric spell list.

[User3]

I was partial to the Cleric/Verdant lord in 3.0 who turned into a Treant and then cast Spikes on its hands. Thats about as good as it gets for 'unarmed' clerics.
Well, until they start shapechanging into other woody terrors =P

In 3.5 with a Wildshaped (plant) Druid and Spikes... *shiver*

-Catharz Godsfoot.

[Wrenfield]

One of the more overpowered spells of MotW for its level was Briar Web. They lessened its AOE by half (it's still a good spell). But now gave casting access of it to Clerics.

A pretty nifty spell, especially if you summon a burrowing creature to attack at the webbed victims from underneath. Or flying ones to poke from up above.

[Username17]

It was always accessible to Clerics. It's just that in DotF, Druids cast it a level lower.

Why anyone thought that it would be a good idea to essentially give Acid Fog to Druids as a 2nd level spell is hopelessly beyond me.

It's kind of better than ACid Fog, in that your party can still open up with ranged weapons no problem.

-Username17

[Wrenfield]

1084830020[/unixtime]]It was always accessible to Clerics. It's just that in DotF, Druids cast it a level lower.

Why anyone thought that it would be a good idea to essentially give Acid Fog to Druids as a 2nd level spell is hopelessly beyond me.

It's kind of better than ACid Fog, in that your party can still open up with ranged weapons no problem.

Interesting, I always used the MotW entry which said it wasn't a Cleric spell. Although I see it now in the DotF. Duh.

**

Sandblast was reprinted. And again assumes the role as the Druid's version of the "Rogue-friendly" Color Spray. Doomtide was also reprinted, and is a great tactical spell for a Cleric Archer to cast with his Rogue friend as well (with both hanging out in the darkness, launching arrows and sneak attacking).

**

WotC finally acknowledged that they were short on telepathy type spells (that read minds) in the core rules. And published spells such as Probe Thoughts, Brain Spider, and Lesser Telepathic Bond. Which are very cool and will gets lots of use in my campaign.

**

Taking 2 feats slots allocated to the feat Practiced Spellcaster can do some insane things to the spellcaster level of a Nar Demonbinder/Ur-Priest caster. Blasphemy-wise, that is. 1 feat for each PrC, mind you... Toss in 1 level of True Necromancer (had via an additional dip of 1 level of MotAO to Nar Demonbinder) and it gets even nuttier.

**

Anyway, these are my first impressions just 5 minutes into finally getting this new book. I hope to post more on it later. Lots of min/maxable stuff here ... lotsa crap too.

[The_Hanged_Man]

IMO, it's 99% crap. The stuff is either too powerful to use as written, or too lame for anyone to touch.

[Username17]

Here's a weird question:

I haven't actually gotten my hands on the book yet, and I definately don't think I'll be purchasing it. But I've heard that they "fixed prestige domains".

What the hell does that mean? Prestige Domains were one of the very few definitionally balanced things in the game. You get bonus spells known, and they automatically and exclusively show up in the spell levels you can cast. Thus, when you get to 15th level the Prestige Domain is giving you something appropriate for 15th level, and at 7th level the Prestige Domain is giving you something appropriate for 7th level, and so on for every single level you ever take.

So the question remains: how did they go about "fixing" the concept of Prestige Domains? It wasn't broken, and in fact worked better than 99% of their other mechanics. Does this just mean that they went out and hit some of the more absurdly powerful domains (Celerity, Mysticism, Madness) with the nerfing stick? Or does it mean it was "fixed" in the same way that 3.5 TWF was "fixed", or my cat was "fixed"?

-Username17

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I think it refers to how your cat was fixed, assuming your cat is a male cat.

[The_Hanged_Man]

1084854816[/unixtime]]But I've heard that they "fixed prestige domains".

I've been curious myself, it was one of the least troublesome aspects of most of the PrC's. There were two problems, though.

First, for some reason they like letting arcane casters get domains. This was a huge mechanical problem that was never explained, and now is. Domains just expand the spell list for arcane casters, they don't allow extra casting.


The other problem was at the edge, where some wacky domains gave powers or spells that allowed maxing essentially for free, b/c you didn't lose any basic cleric or wizard powers. Now, a lot of domain access comes at the expense of a caster level. WHich sucks. It wasn't that cool.

[Username17]

First, for some reason they like letting arcane casters get domains. This was a huge mechanical problem that was never explained, and now is. Domains just expand the spell list for arcane casters, they don't allow extra casting.

That's how it always worked, see DotF.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

That's how it was supposed to work, but the rules were at best ambiguous.

[Username17]

I'm failing to see where it was at all ambiguous:

If she is a divine spellcaster (a paladin, ranger, or druid), each day she can cast one extra spell of each spell level to which she has access, which must be the spell from the prestige domain for that level. If she is an arcane spellcaster (wizard, sorcerer, or bard), the domain spells are added to her spells known-scribed in a wizard's spell-book, or added to a sorcerer or bard's list of known spells, in addition to the character's normal number.

Sorry, this is really clear. Abundantly, astoundingly, almost incomprehensibly clear, concise, and to the point. There was no ambiguity here at all, unless you wanted to claim that the example spellcasting classes list was somehow meant to be exclusive.

If you made that claim, then you could further claim that Assassins and Blackguard were somehow not covered by these provisions and then you could elect yourself Mayor of Crazytown.

But there was absolutely no confusion whatsoever as to what happened when a Wizard got a prestige domain - it was scribed into their spellbook and they got no bonus spell slots. That was never really up for discussion.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

I'm not arguing with you. But lots of people would - b/c you can stretch that language to mean that arcane casters have an additional benefit over divine casters, in that the domain spell is added to their spell list. IOW, they get the normal benefit of having a domain (casting a domain spell), and for clarity the ability specifies that the spell is, indeed, on the caster's spell list.

Not the best way to read the rule. I personally don't think it's any different than the CD rule - if it is, it might be exactly the same. But there is no argument under the CD rule.

[Username17]

But the ability to have an extra spell per day is predicated on being a divine caster.

The only way people can even begin to get jiggy is on characters who are both divine casters and arcane spellcasters, and then claim to get both benefits generally rather than just for the relevent spell lists.

But honestly I don't really care what bonus Mystic Theurges are picking up...

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

You can't believe the number of inane posts on WOTC discussed the opposite. Or maybe you can.

[Lago_AM3P]

Do you consider it to be sufficiently martial artsy if he just uses a quarterstaff?

I'll take you up on that offer, Frank.

But I'd like to refrain from using spells not in the PHB, if at all possible, as every spell not in there has been temporarily banned in my regular campaign.

[Username17]

1087352867[/unixtime]]

Do you consider it to be sufficiently martial artsy if he just uses a quarterstaff?

I'll take you up on that offer, Frank.

But I'd like to refrain from using spells not in the PHB, if at all possible, as every spell not in there has been temporarily banned in my regular campaign.

OK, that's a little difficult as without non-core spells you are somewhat better off with a sword. What level are you talking?

This is where we find out whether you want to be a Druid who eventually intends to get his hands on the hero domain or a Cleric who intends to get his grubby mitts on the Shileleagh spell (Sp.?).

-Username17