Complete Divine Preview

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fbmf
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Complete Divine Preview

Post by fbmf »

Click me.

Thanks to da chicken who pointed this out over on Nifty.

Game On,
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Wrenfield
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Wrenfield »

What will be interesting to see, is if they explicitly state that the Pious Templar is an official replacement of Templar from the DotF. If not, because of the name differences, you can elect to use the 3.0 Templar in lieu of 3.5 Pious Templar.

WotC did a similar thing with the Guild Thief (3.0 FRCS) and Shadow Thief of Amn (PGtF). They are both identical to the "T", except Shadow Thief has less savory pre-requisites. Which makes you never, ever want to use the new and revised Thief PrC - and you are not forced to take it either because its not an "official" replacement. :bored:

**

Note: the uber Madness and Mysticism domains were "right-sized" for 3.5 ... which is no fun.

The Summoner domain is now a normal domain, and not a prestige domain. Which makes sense - it was never overpowered in the 1st place.

And it looks like we get blessed with more craptastic PrC's that have +1 spellcaster levels per 2 class level advancements. Why? :confused:
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Username17 »

Entropomancer:

Shard: It says the shard can be used to "attack" - but it doesn't say the shard can be "moved" on the round i is created, which is the nomenclature that the rest of the ability uses. It's a pretty suck ability anyway (I'm not sure why an 8th level Cleric is going to be wasting his time with an Empowered Flaming Sphere in the first place).

Field: It actually doesn't take a standard action to dismiss the field - it only lasts one round. That means that you put it up, and by the time you would get another standard action you could use to dismiss it - it's already over.

Anyone else notice that there is no ability gained at 3rd level? No spellcasting, no abilities, no nothing. Very terrible class.

Final nail in the coffin: An Entropomancer is considered equipped with a Talisman of the Sphere at all times. Since the Entropomancer is not an Arcane Caster this means that the Entropomancer suffers 5d6 of damage every round until dead.

Which brings me to another rant: In the SRD the Talisman of the Sphere is listed as both a medium wondrous item that a mage could just make in less than a week and a half for chicken scratch - and as a minor artifact that you can't get for love or money. What the hell?

Other problems:

The Oracle Domain lists a Material Component for Identify. It is, however, a Domain - which means that it adds it as a Divine Spell most of the time. Divine Spellcasters do not use Material Components to cast that spell.

I'm not happy.

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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by User3 »

People keep saying Entropic Field is broken. I'm not convinced. Can someone explain exactly what "broken" mathematical advantage, if any, this ability gives you? I think I'm too stupid to figure it out, but I'm going to keep working on it.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083689837[/unixtime]]Final nail in the coffin: An Entropomancer is considered equipped with a Talisman of the Sphere at all times. Since the Entropomancer is not an Arcane Caster this means that the Entropomancer suffers 5d6 of damage every round until dead.


:lmao:

I love it! More classes need to literally rig their character to self-destruct (As opposed to just metaphorically)

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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Username17 »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1083693648[/unixtime]]People keep saying Entropic Field is broken. I'm not convinced. Can someone explain exactly what "broken" mathematical advantage, if any, this ability gives you? I think I'm too stupid to figure it out, but I'm going to keep working on it.


It works as a Free Action, which in 3.5 means that it can only be used during your turn. So the obvious use of it - using it to reroll your own saves - is not possible unless you are casting spells on yourself that you to need to save against.

So it is "broken" - in that the higher level version of the ability does not work as intended.

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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by RandomCasualty »

Wrenfield at [unixtime wrote:1083687860[/unixtime]]What will be interesting to see, is if they explicitly state that the Pious Templar is an official replacement of Templar from the DotF. If not, because of the name differences, you can elect to use the 3.0 Templar in lieu of 3.5 Pious Templar.


Not really sure what the big difference here is, considering it's the DMs choice to use either PrC.
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fbmf
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by fbmf »

Yes, RC, but if the name isn't the same, the Templar will be legal in a RAW 3.5 game because of backwards compatablity.

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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by RandomCasualty »

fbmf at [unixtime wrote:1083700586[/unixtime]]Yes, RC, but if the name isn't the same, the Templar will be legal in a RAW 3.5 game because of backwards compatablity.



Is the significance because it lets you select the class in RPGA games? Because really, I have yet to see a home game that is strict RAW, where the DM would feel bound by a minor name thing like this.
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fbmf
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by fbmf »

Surely you are not suggesting that the DM can houserule the problem away, so it is not a problem.

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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by RandomCasualty »

fbmf at [unixtime wrote:1083702853[/unixtime]]Surely you are not suggesting that the DM can houserule the problem away, so it is not a problem.


Eh... no. I'm just saying that all noncore PrCs are optional. You're basically not entitled to take a single one unless the DM says it's ok.

The DM has to allow the old Templar in in the first place before you can take it. So basically I don't see the big deal about the name change. It still comes down to if the DM allows you to take it or not. The only thing that is definite in a RAW game is the core, everything else is still optional.
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Wrenfield »

I heard the Contemplative PrC got nerfed. Meaning no more level 1 dips for a domain (prestige or non-prestige). This is in line with the revision to the Divine Disciple (FRCS) which bumped up the bonus domain from level 1 to level 4.

I read a Richard Baker quote where he said R&D religiously reads the CharOp WotC forum for broken build combos and archetypes. And as is well known, many Cleric builds took exactly 1 level of DD and Cont for 2 bonus domains, leaving those who want a full progression in either PrC as a small, small minority.

I'm curious to see if they "fixed" the Master of Shrouds. One of my favorite broken-but-butchered PrC's from DotF. God, the verbiage of that PrC was freakin' horrendous. But for a small investment, you got a ton of nice swag. 3 Bonus domains, a bunch of nice extra spells to add to your Clerical spells known, and maybe a few class-ability undead summonings if you invested enough levels - along with Fighter BAB. I liked it because it gave my Cleric Magic Jar. Which is still one of the best all-time spells this side of the Rio Grande.

I bet they "fix" Holy Liberator PrC as well. For 3 levels, the HL gave a Fighter-type a whole buttload of nice class-abilities. With a tie-in to take the Divine Might feat if you were a CHA-Warrior.

I'd also like to see more PrC's that grant a Cleric full undead turning capability throughout its levels. PGtF gave us the lukewarm Morninglord and the nifty Eye of Horus-Re (whose only suckage is his loss of 1 spellcaster levels). Ghostwalk gave us a Dwarf Clerical PrC with full turning that was also pretty spiffy, yet only 1 good save. Otherwise, Sacred Exorcist is the PrC to beat in this category...
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I read a Richard Baker quote where he said R&D religiously reads the CharOp WotC forum . . .


Why don't they just read their own rules religiously before sending the books to publisher? Broken builds bug my quite a bit less than rules that just plain don't work - like charging, or weapon sizes, or polymorph. So somebody makes a PC w/ +24/+24/+24 saves. WooT.
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Well, Richard Baker obviously doesn't know a damn thing about balancing the rules.

This man, while nerfing persistent spell to all hell, has also made a PrC that will add this feat to any spell in another person's repertoire for even less cost and gave us the damn Initiate of Mystra feat.

The only thing I dislike like more than nerfing is nerfing that makes edge-case clerics more powerful; I can't really begin to tell you how much better cleric archers with the time or travel domain are now that the other clerics got nerfed.
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Wrenfield »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1083707521[/unixtime]]Well, Richard Baker obviously doesn't know a damn thing about balancing the rules.

This man, while nerfing persistent spell to all hell, has also made a PrC that will add this feat to any spell in another person's repertoire for even less cost and gave us the damn Initiate of Mystra feat.

The only thing I dislike like more than nerfing is nerfing that makes edge-case clerics more powerful; I can't really begin to tell you how much better cleric archers with the time or travel domain are now that the other clerics got nerfed.


I have to tell you, before PGtF was published, I played a long-time Cleric of Mystra who had the Spell and Magic domains. Instead of playing the ever-popular Archer Cleric archetype, I played a Summoner/Spellslinger Cleric who could still whip out the Spikes/Brambles covered Quarterstaff and kick some royal ass.

With the Spell domain, he had awesome arcane spell selection on any given day. And with the Magic domain, he couldcast Identify (nice as a Cleric) and use Wands of Shrink Item or Solid Fog like nobodies business.

Then the Initiate of Mystra feats gets published. :wtf: Right as my DM is ready to pick up those character and move on to another higher level campaign. SWEET.

Not only can I now royally abuse the AMF-friendly aspect of the IoM feat when in melee ass-kicking mode, I can now cast Greater Anyspell as a normal Cleric spell. Which means my Cleric can now load up on uber-Mage & Bard spells like Improvisation, Magic Jar, & Teleport. Counting my once a day Limited Wish, I can pretty much cast just about any Wizard or Bard spell of 6th level or lower with relative ease. Making my Cleric capable of laughing hideously at comparable Mystic Theurge while still having 20 Cleric spellcaster levels (excuse me, 25+ with an Ioun Stone & a Prayer Bead) and full Undead Turning capability.

The IoM feat is just bug-nuts wacky - it's a must have feat for any Cleric in the FRCS serious about furthering his cause at the high end of the power spectrum. And alone will be responsible for the mass conversion of thousands of high level clergy in the Realms to the cause of that wacky nimrod, Mystra. :bow:

Amazingly, this feat is overpowered. And its in a book with a whole gullet-full of under-crapped PrC's that often make you laugh while reading its respective laundry list of class abilities. Did I say "respective"?
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Username17 »

I'm still wondering what the theory behind reducing Spell Focus to +1 DC while leaving Spellcasting Prodigy at +2 Caster Stat was.

I just don't see the justification. At all.

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Wrenfield
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Wrenfield »

Per the Living Greyhawk support team, this is the ComDivine contents (they get advance copies of the book). Sadly, no Master of Shrouds update. So the PrC continues to stay broken, and still useable in 3.5 due to backwards compatibility. (sigh) ... And how much you wanna bet that the revised Ur-Priest is a gonna get its ass nerfed back to reality?

Core Classes
Favored Soul
Shugenja
Spirit Shaman

Prestige Classes
Black Flame Zealot
Blighter
Church Inquisitor
Consecrated Harrier
Contemplative
Divine Crusader
Divine Oracle
Entropomancer
Evangelist
Geomancer
Holy Liberator
Hospitaler
Pious Templar
Radiant Servant of Pelor
Rainbow Servant
Sacred Exorcist
Sacred Fist
Seeker of the Misty Isle
Shining Blade of Heironeous
Temple Raider of Olidammara
Ur-Priest
Void Disciple
Warpriest

Feats
Arcane Disciple
Augmented Healing
Boar's Ferocity
Cheetah's Speed
Consecrate Spell
Corrupt Spell
Disciple of the Sun
Divine Metamagic
Divine Spell Power
Domain Focus
Domain Spontaneity
Eagle's Wings
Elemental Healing
Elemental Smiting
Elephant's Hide
Empower Turning
Extra Wild Shape
Fast Wild Shape
Glorious Weapons
Grizzly's Claws
Improved Smiting
Lion's Pounce
Oaken Resilience
Pious Defense
Pious Soul
Pious Spellsurge
Practiced Spellcaster
Profane Boost
Quicken Turning
Rapid Spell
Reach Spell
Sacred Boost
Sacred Healing
Sanctify Relic
Serpent's Venom
Spell Focus (chaos, evil, good, law)
Spontaneous Healer
Spontaneous Summoner
Spontaneous Wounder
Swim Like a Fish
Transdimensional Spell
True Believer
Wolverine's Rage

Spells
Anger of the Noonday Sun
Awaken, Mass
Bane Bow
Beast Claws
Beget Bogun
Bestow Curse, Greater
Binding Winds
Blast of Force
Blessed Aim
Blessings of Bahamut
Body of the Sun
Bolt of Glory
Bolts of Bedevilment
Bottle of Smoke
Brain Spider
Brambles
Briar Web
Brilliant Aura
Camouflage
Camouflage, Mass
Castigate
Chain of Eyes
Cloudburst
Cloudwalkers
Cometfall
Contagious Touch
Creeping Cold
Creeping Cold, Greater
Crown of Glory
Crumble
Curse of Ill Fortune
Curse of Lycanthropy
Dance of the Unicorn
Death Pact
Decomposition
Deific Vengeance
Detect Favored Enemy
Divine Agility
Divine Sacrifice
Doomtide
Dragon Breath
Dream Sight
Energy Vortex
Enveloping Cocoon
Fire Wings
Fires of Purity
Flame of Faith
Forestfold
Golden Barding
Hawkeye
Implacable Pursuer
Improved Blink
Infestation of Maggots
Languor
Last Breath
Maddening Scream
Maelstrom
Mark of the Hunter
Miasma
Monstrous Thrall
Murderous Mist
Nature's Avatar
Nature's Favor
Naturewatch
Nimbus of Light
Obedient Avalance
Omen of Peril
Otyugh Swarm
Pavilion of Grandeur
Phantasmal Decoy
Phantasmal Disorientation
Phantom Bear
Phantom Stag
Phantom Wolf
Plague of Rats
Poison Thorns
Poison Vines
Probe Thoughts
Quill Blast
Recitation
Regenerate Circle
Regenerate Critical Wounds
Regenerate Light Wounds
Regenerate Ring
Regenerate Serious Wounds
Rejuvenation Cocoon
Renewal Pact
Resurgence
Resurgence, Mass
Revenance
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Sacred Haven
Sandblast
Scent
Scourge
Shadow Landscape
Slime Wave
Spell Resistance, Mass
Spikes
Spiritual Chariot
Stalwart Pact
Standing Wave
Storm of Elemental Fury
Storm Tower
Stormrage
Subvert Planar Essence
Telepathic Bond, Lesser
Tidal Surge
Tortoise Shell
Touch of Madness
Traveler's Mount
True Creation
True Domination
Unbinding
Unyielding Roots
Visage of the Deity
Visage of the Deity, Greater
Visage of the Deity, Lesser
Waterspout
Wave of Grief
Weapon of the Deity
Weather Eye
Whirlwind, Greater
Winged Mount
Wood Wose
Wrack
Zeal
Zealot Pack
Oberoni
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Oberoni »

Yeah, ok, looks like they're revising a vast majority of the "broken" divine classes, up to and including the mighty Hospitaler.

So I don't care if they miss a fairly obscure one in the Master of Shrouds.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

It's still too bad, I love the Master of the Shrouds, but I have to ban it because of it's wonkiness.

Or rather, I like the Master of Shrouds as I interpret the class, whether or not that's what the designers were thinking is impossible to tell. (Or perhaps they just plain weren't thinking, making my interpretation as valid as anyone else's.)
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Wrenfield »

Well, I would not be surprised to see the DotF-era Master of Shrouds gain popularity after the release of the Complete Divine.

It will now most likely be the only PrC you can take 1 level of to bolster your "domains known" due to the nerfing of the 1 level dip into both Contemplative and Divine Disciple. 3 free domains, +1 BAB/ Level, and access to a bunch of great arcane spells (Magic Jar being the winner here) is nothing to sneeze it.

I'm really looking forward to the alternative core classes of Shugenja and Spirit Shaman. Favored Soul (MiniHB) is interesting as a Cleric alternative, but not as good as the straight Cleric. And I am glad they did not have the audacity to reprint the Healer (MiniHB) core class - talk about horrible...
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I'll have to compare/contrast the new shaman and shugenja to the old, I'll use the one I like better.

All I know about Favored Soul is that it's supposedly overpowered, but after reading the arguments for and against, I'm not sure, and I don't really want to buy the Mini HB to find out, as my run through of that book made me think it was a bit underpowered in general.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
Wrenfield
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Wrenfield »

The Favored Soul is the Sorceror .... the Cleric is the Wizard. That's a close approximation of the overall comparison of the 2. The FS is far from overpowered. And its levelled class abilities are nothing impressive when compared to the Cleric. Compared to other classes, yeah ... the FS is saddles somewhere in efficacy around the Wizard, but higher than the Rogue. It's still a good class.
The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

It's the problem w/ valuing all classes. If you compare it to the Cleric - not so bad. Compare it to anything else, though, and it's full o' hurt. With just shows the Cleric needs some changing.
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Wrenfield »

There is a confirmation that the new CD book has a feat in it called Spontaneous Healer. It allows non-Good Clerics to swap out spells for Cure spells. And yes, Druids can take this feat.

Talk about versatility ... Druids can now spontaneously cast SNA *and* Cure spells. Joy. :-/

Most of my Druid builds have a pretty tight feat acquisition structure. So I'll have to see the pre-req. fine print before I start modifying those builds.
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Re: Complete Divine Preview

Post by Username17 »

You can already spontaneously cast cure spells by spending 750 gold pieces, how much does a feat slot cost?

The Wand of Cure Light Wounds single handedly invalidates all builds which bother to spend spell slots on cure spells.

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