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Tamarask -- or why I started worrying and stopped loving the
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Akula wrote:
Those rules don't even make sense.

Sure they do, and they solve a number of problems too (though not the Candle).
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Rejakor
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They don't solve any underlying problems but they don't fuck anyone who wasn't already trying to do some shady crap in the first place.

It might bone some uses of the summon planar ally spell et al, since some otherwise balanced celestials and whatnot have arbitrarily high caster levels for things like Continual Flame, but it's not stupid enough to actually destroy anyone's usefulness - there are usually other options, Lesser Planar Ally is one heck of a diverse spell. It doesn't really solve the fact that the cleric is a broken class and some of it's spells are written by people on crack, but it doesn't hurt the game very much.

As for DM enemy of the players thing.. the DM isn't the enemy of the players. He's the facilitator of the world, the mind that powers every interaction that involves characters who are not players, and the guy whose job it is to keep the game interesting. How people don't just get that I will never know.


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Cynic
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Virgil said wrote:
Two new rulings in the middle of that session, which kept the player kind of busy as he started refunding himself all of the money he had spent while we played that hinged on those two aspects (~120k worth)...
* Caster level bonuses never stack with others
* You can never bind/call/summon a creature with a caster level greater than yours


If that includes spell-likes, that would mean, which it possibly does with this dm, you can't get an imp, barbazu, etc... at low levels. I don't even remember my high-level monsters.

We saw the planetar.

Trumpet archon at mid-level probably. that's 12 I mean.


Would a celestial charger count for a planar ally? I've never actually called one, but would it count? It casts some of it spells as an 18th level cleric or something right?

OH, yeah, Djinns, Elementals, poof....
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virgil
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The planetar was already under contract to stay out of battle, and it's sole purpose was to be an out-of-combat healer and

It's not a hard rule from him, and probably never will be. It's a nebulous decision, but we understand it to mean he's going to nix any and all summons that have full spellcasting greater than the party level, and there's always been a threat of him nixing wish-granting summons if it's actually done; although this is Paizo, so wish can no longer grant wealth and stat-increasing automatically causes a -1 penalty to another stat.

Also remember, holy word et al allow saves in Paizo, so it doesn't have the insta-gib powers of normal D&D. Really, his response was direct and an obviously petulant lash out because we killed his half dozen vampire skulks.

There was also the 12th level sorcerer vampire aberration thing that I killed in two rounds, but I'm not sure if it was physically possible for anyone else in the party to kill it. Its saves made it nearly untouchable by the mystic theurge, DR 10/silver makes the other two fighters barely able to deal 20 damage per round assuming it was willing to be on the ground and not hang from the rafters 15' up (20' reach) and make its 10 attacks per round there (or cast numerous spells), and it was invisible.

This is a pre-written adventure, so the above monster is supposed to be like that, but it still very much angers the DM that I killed it.
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Cynic
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

virgileso wrote:
-snip-

It's not a hard rule from him, and probably never will be. It's a nebulous decision, but we understand it to mean he's going to nix any and all summons that have full spellcasting greater than the party level,

- eye glaze ---


so.... a hard and fast rule? I mean on average, is the level differential between players in the group going to vary more than say 2.5 or 3? 2 itself is retarded. If I see a group with level differential of 3 between characters w/o obvious cause and understanding, But even that is going to cause some grumbling except in the most understanding of groups. I don't see the Tamarask group as (cough -- yes, even though I don't play w/them and I am not even in that part of the continental US, we shall call it by my old character) being that understanding.
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virgil
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The DM switched to having everyone level in unison at plot specific times instead of specific fight XP awards, and since Paizo removed XP costs in item creation and level loss from resurrection (pay an extra 5k for a restoration), level differences don't happen anymore.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wow, that's actually, you know, reasonable. Quite impressive that he came up with it on his own.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Cynic
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
Wow, that's actually, you know, reasonable. Quite impressive that he came up with it on his own.


As much as i'm hating on the man, he's pretty intelligent actually. Just misguided and misthought for most of his life.
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Roy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A_Cynic wrote:
Maxus wrote:
Wow, that's actually, you know, reasonable. Quite impressive that he came up with it on his own.


As much as i'm hating on the man, he's pretty intelligent actually. Just misguided and misthought for most of his life.


He is using Pathfinder in a means that do not involve intentionally violating the Geneva Convention regarding treatment of POWs.

That word does not mean what you think it means.
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Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:
Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.


Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?


Juton wrote:
Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.


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Rejakor
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

People can be intelligent and still as blind as a bat in a sound nonreflective cave. I personally blame it on belief. Since it often causes people to be irrational. A lot of this stuff can be blamed on a bunch of very common beliefs by players of dnd. Optimizing your character in any way is munchkinism. Designing your mechanics to fit a concept is munchkinism. Munchkinism is bad. DnD is perfect in every way and the designers are like tiny gods, each able to perfectly balance anything. The reason the game sucks is cause munchkins ruin it by being munchkins.

That's the short version. The even shorter version is 'not making your character powerful is a responsibility'. Which means 'play the way I want you to play so that I can have fun being better than you because my dick is very small.'

Like nearly everyone on the planet, he'll act irrationally to defend his belief. Where you're going wrong virgil is by expecting him to have a logical basis for his actions. Dichotomous as it seems, people with irrational beliefs do not believe that their beliefs are irrational - so they can mix logical and illogical actions and see nothing wrong with that. Whereas you just go 'gah' because it's obvious that this guy can think and be logical, so why is he choosing to not do so over this, even when you ask him to? Because his beliefs about this are stronger than logic in this case.

There are a number of methods to get around this. Trick the person into thinking that their beliefs are being fulfilled when you're subverting them. Encourage a belief in the opposite of the current belief, and then use the two's ideological weight against each other to prove to him that those kinds of beliefs don't work logically. Force the issue to the point where he has to pick between the belief and something that matters more to him, emotionally. Build a vocabulary/web of understandings that completely bypasses the trigger causes of the belief so it eventually is never called on at all, at least while you're around.

But banging your head against the brick wall of trying to make him logically understand that what he's doing is both irrational and hypocritical? That won't work. And it'll just cause you endless annoyance and irritation.

As for the nebulous decision - I sympathize there. Ask him to make a hard-and-fast ruling. If it's unreasonable, say why it's unreasonable, and ask that he change it. Suggest how he could change it. Say why that suggestion is a good idea. If it looks like you're on his side and trying to help make it work in the rules, then he'll actually probably listen to you instead of being an asshole and just forging ahead while ignoring the 'munchkin'.

As for the other two fighters... try to bring them up to your level. Offer them tips for improving their characters ability to damage enemies and move around. Vocabulary is the key here. 'Utility' /not/ 'power'. We know there is no difference. They don't. 'Able to get past DR' not 'Do more damage'. 'Have more tactical options'. Etc. 'Cool stuff'. Not 'more powerful stuff'. Create homebrew feats for the other characters with stealth powerups that look fairly innocent or 'cool'. Show them to the DM and ask if you can include them.

Basically, if you want to play at [X] power level, make everyone else just as or slightly more powerful than you. If the DM starts grumbling about munchkins or demolished encounters, give him some tips/suggestions about how to advance monsters to make them 'challenging' without TPK'ing the party.

Basically, do what you've been trying to do already but from a stealth/manipulative point of view. Manipulation is not bad. It is a tool that can be used for good and evil, like everything else.

Anyway, best of luck,

-R
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Roy
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

TL;DR version: Break down exactly why he is wrong, then replace it with what is right. In other words, pull a Crusader of Logic (with or without associated Smite Imbecile).

Break him out of his delusion and he'll be fine again. Unless he honestly is stupid, in which case I recommend foisting him off on the religion of your choice. Sick
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Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:
Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.


Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?


Juton wrote:
Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.


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Rejakor
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Roy, breaking people out of delusions is pretty damn hard.

And often they can be nice people despite being deluded.

Again, you're breaking it down into black and white, despite the sheer stupidity of doing so - something, ironically, you are arguing against.

tl;dr realize he's under a delusion; act in a way that doesn't set that delusion off; subtly change the entire game until it's what you want, and all the players and DM are suddenly having more fun and don't even realize it was you; (optional) get the other players to realize that you're not the problem by helping them, use added pressure to get the DM to agree to rules choices/ditch game en mass if necessary.
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Roy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*shrugs* There are too many dumbfucks in the world. And they don't get subtlety, else I'd just Magnificent Bastard them off a proverbial cliff.
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Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:
Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.


Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?


Juton wrote:
Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.


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Cynic
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Roy wrote:
*shrugs* There are too many dumbfucks in the world. And they don't get subtlety, else I'd just Magnificent Bastard them off a proverbial cliff.



Do you realize what the fvck a fanatic is, Roy? Because you in a sense are one? At least in the sense that I've known you, you aren't a religious, political, moral or whatever activist in the sense of the historical or modern or fictional ones we know. But you are one in the sense that you live in an idealized world where you don't seem to understand that and you preach a polemic of

Virgil, I apologize if this suddenly highjacks this thread that you highjacked from me originally. I'll probably take it into a pm if it goes that way. But I had to get it off the chest.
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Roy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Truncated much?
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Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:
Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.


Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?


Juton wrote:
Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.


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virgil
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And now the DM, after session upon session, house-ruled mid-fight that spell-storing cannot be placed on ammunition. Made the fight alot harder.
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Lehmuska
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's not necessarily even a house rule. Spell storing does not appear in ranged weapon special abilities list, so it's debatable if it can be put into ranged weapons at all.

virgileso, page 6 wrote:

We're about four or five sessions in, and I'm already hitting hurdles. Either the DM read the rules with a bias, or he's 'subtly' making a house rule that acid doesn't ignore hardness; all in response to a random idea I had of suggesting to the wizard that he use acid splash to break the lock from a distance to make sure there aren't any traps in it.


This isn't a house rule. The rules don't actually let acid bypass hardness.
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IGTN
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The only mentions of acid working well against metal in the PHB are on Page 165, second column:

Quote:
Energy Attacks: Acid and Sonic attacks deal damage to objects just as they do to most creatures, roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit.


This is after the instructions for how to apply hardness. Other energy types have instructions to apply hardness given. This, then, could be taken to mean that hardness doesn't apply to acid and sonic, but it equally well might not be.

Quote:
Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: The DM may rule that certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. For example [blah blah blah]. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may (at the DM's discretion) ignore the object's hardness.


No mention of acid on metal in the examples, even though it should be there.
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Lehmuska
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

We shouldn't derail this thread anymore than necessary. Let's take this outside.
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Lago PARANOIA
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

L wrote:
That's not necessarily even a house rule. Spell storing does not appear in ranged weapon special abilities list, so it's debatable if it can be put into ranged weapons at all.


What, do you mean that table where you randomly roll for something?

I guess I can't have ghost touch bow and arrows now!
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Josh Kablack wrote:
Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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virgil
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That 'list' for ranged weapons is for rolling random magic weapons and is not an exclusive list. Do you actually see anywhere in the rules that that chart is fully what is and isn't allowed in the game? If you use that stupid argument, here's a sample of what's not allowed in the game...
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Lehmuska
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I said it's debatable, not that it's a good argument. That's just the most often quoted argument I've seen for not allowing spell storing arrows.

The second argument is usually that putting spell storing onto an arrow is brutal compared to putting it on a melee weapon, where you can't easily get a free low level spell cast at an opponent with every hit.
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Quantumboost
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lehmuska wrote:
I said it's debatable, not that it's a good argument. That's just the most often quoted argument I've seen for not allowing spell storing arrows.

The second argument is usually that putting spell storing onto an arrow is brutal compared to putting it on a melee weapon, where you can't easily get a free low level spell cast at an opponent with every hit.


Both are bad arguments. The spell storing ability does not specify that it cannot be placed on ranged weapons, as other qualities do (returning or seeking, for example, cannot be melee weapons and throwing must be on a melee weapon), and by default weapon abilities can be placed on any weapon. The first argument is worthless nonsense, especially since I've seen it stated last time this subject came up that the designers actually put spell storing ammunition in some adventures.

The second argument is a question of balance (and given that the people shooting arrows are not the ones who are already slinging SoD effects every round, not a particularly good one), and does not in any way make not allowing spell storing ammunition not a houserule. Which is what you said was "debatable".

Edit: Bad structure of the examples inside parentheses


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virgil
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The big annoyance was that spell storing had been used under that same DM for literally years.
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Korwin
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmm, my reaction in such a case would probably be: an minimized Charakter.
Make an Char. who looks good on paper, but cant do anything worthwile.
Optional make who could pull his weight with little changes.
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