Tamarask -- or why I started worrying and stopped loving the

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:58 pm

Dude, it's not a bug, it's a feature!

...Cookie to whoever finds the best pic to go with that caption.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:29 pm

Wanted the original scene with the Tallest, but this works.

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:51 am

FrankTrollman wrote:See that? People suggest that he has alack of social skills and banning him and shit, not because of way he delivered his declaration, but for the content of the declaration. If your message is "Power A is broken" it doesn't matter - at all - to these people how you phrase that.

/facepalm

Of course, the main reason they're probably bitching is because he's bringing up something that would nerf their favorite class... it's ok to have a broken game as long as you profit from it, amirite? *shakes head*

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:26 am

Standard MMO fare. Yawn.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:30 am

Ganbare Gincun wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:See that? People suggest that he has alack of social skills and banning him and shit, not because of way he delivered his declaration, but for the content of the declaration. If your message is "Power A is broken" it doesn't matter - at all - to these people how you phrase that.
/facepalm

Of course, the main reason they're probably bitching is because he's bringing up something that would nerf their favorite class... it's ok to have a broken game as long as you profit from it, amirite? *shakes head*

Surely some of them. You seriously see a person now and then defending wizards rocking the house in 3e or fighters instagibbig enemies in 4e n the grounds that those characters "deserve" to ownzor everything in the face for one reason or another. I mean, Psychic Robot is even now going on about how it is somehow unacceptable for "fire" to not be a superior attack mode to "stabbing people in the face" on another thread. I don't even know what that's about.

But I'm not even talking about the people who accept the Power A is broken and argue that it is somehow it is OK or even desirable for it to be so. I'm talking about the people who come in and say that the very act of saying that Power A is broken is a rude thing to do on the grounds that whether or not you're right it makes other people less happy when you offer criticism. That's the argument I'm talking about. And it's so common that frankly I think "diplomacy" is a fucking waste of time when it comes to offering playtest feedback.

Either people are willing to accept actual criticism or they are not. If they are not, there is no amount of sugar coating that will make any difference. If they are, then no amount of profanity and hyperbole will make any difference. Tempering your language to try to soothe the feelings of other people when you criticize a creative work is a futile gesture at best. You might as well try to sweet talk the sea.

-Username17

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:08 am

To be fair, TD is a huge douche, and he complained that overland flight was broken.

Either people are willing to accept actual criticism or they are not. If they are not, there is no amount of sugar coating that will make any difference. If they are, then no amount of profanity and hyperbole will make any difference. Tempering your language to try to soothe the feelings of other people when you criticize a creative work is a futile gesture at best. You might as well try to sweet talk the sea.

That sums it up pretty well. For instance, Pathfinder. You provide gently constructive criticism to fix the system in a way that would involve actually fixing the system (rather than slapping a new coat of paint on it). The devs are like, "That would violate backwards compatibility." Then you provide rudely constructive criticism, and the devs are like, "Banned."

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:26 am

Psychic Robot wrote:To be fair, TD is a huge douche, and he complained that overland flight was broken.

If the word on the street is that he's a huge douche, then yes, I can see how there might be some resistance to taking him seriously. But any forum moderator should be able to pick through the chaff to get to the wheat... especially on the internet, where civility is not really a priority for most people.

Psychic Robot wrote:That sums it up pretty well. For instance, Pathfinder. You provide gently constructive criticism to fix the system in a way that would involve actually fixing the system (rather than slapping a new coat of paint on it). The devs are like, "That would violate backwards compatibility." Then you provide rudely constructive criticism, and the devs are like, "Banned."

Maybe they'll listen to rason when they release Pathfinder 2: The Quest For More Money?

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:14 am

Ganbare Gincun wrote:Maybe they'll listen to rason when they release Pathfinder 2: The Quest For More Money? :lol:

The fact that they need money to print books and put food on the table for their families should not have anything to do with their ability to be reasonable in a discussion, like accepting criticism n a 'playtest'.

-Crissa

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:39 pm

The DM's response to general postulating on future plans with character and resource expenditure...

I really think my problem is just that I hate powerful characters, because they make me feel like the game is a waste of time. I spend extra time fine-tuning encounters so that the party doesn't stomp them without trying, which occasionally ends up with me overcorrecting and making a 'challenging' encounter into a 'skin-of-the-teeth-slogfest', and if I don't the game just turns into an exercise in telling the players their characters are badass until their spell slots run out. Which gets old.

Granted, the fact he uses this as an excuse to hate 11th level archers that can one-round a stone golem (his only non-Pathfinder core items were Exalted armor, lesser demolition/fiendslaying crystals, and PHB2's Ranged Weapon Mastery feat), grumble at the idea of a 12th level party purchasing 9th level buff spells on a scroll, basically remove critical damage by having it only multiply base weapon damage, require Leadership cohorts to be NPC classes only, ban solid fog and its derivatives (potentially spike stones as well), etc.

For someone who seems to be able to run enjoyable enough games, he certainly complains enough to give the impression of a wholly unimaginative DM who can't (or won't) do anything but video game boss fights in his campaigns.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:33 pm

I know that we stopped talking about this, but in that thread TD gets yelled at immediately (even by me) because he has a habit of derailing threads by complaining about powers.

I remember one time someone asked about how would they go making a good swordmaster and taking advantage of the Steel Blitz ability. And then TD busts into the thread and starts ranting about how Dual Strike and Rain of Blows and ranger minor-action powers are completely busted and he's a munchkin for thinking so.

But I would like to say that in that thread he wasn't the only person complaining about Storm of Blows. And I agree; that power is completely fucking nuts compared to other powers of its level. You can be grabbing like 6 to 9 attacks as an encounter power, which completely blows everything else out of the water. I guess in defense of that thread, it's more of a Crying Wolf situation than a 'we don't want to hear about this blah blah blah' situation.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:54 pm

As long as this is the bitchfest about having characters nerfed:

<rant>
I wanted to play the Den Ranger here in a campaign with the Tome PBS and Far Shot feats.

I was told that:
PBS is +1 to hit, +1/3 BAB to damage, only applies within 30 (rather than 1st range increment).
Far Shot abilities moved to 1, 8, and 16.
Entangle is one active at a time.
Healing is gone flat out.
Animal Companion is HD, rather than CR.
All Planar terrains are omg broken! (especially 30' fly speed)

All normal terrains are OMG BROKEN! (especially Climb speed, burrow speed, and immunity to mind affecting spells). In order to fix this, the ability would only be active in the given terrain, and nerfed.

I argued that that ripped out 90% of the class abilities, and that I didn't want to play "guess where the next campaign takes place!" with the DM. I also suggested giving 1 terrain/2 levels, giving them only in natural environments, and limitting the terrain bonuses to:
Plains +3 Spot, land movement +50%
Forest +3 Hide, HiPS
Hills +3 Listen, Fatigue Immunity
Mountain +3 Climb, Climb speed (1/2 land)
Jungle +3 Move Silently, Move Silently at full speed

I was told that all of those were too powerful for a level 10 character to have (yes, including fatigue immunity, which is granted by a core ranger).

Also, when arguing that "+2 to damage with ranged weapons within 30 at level 6 doesn't allow for an archery ranger to keep up with a level 1 fighter with the same stats", I was told "archery should always be inferior to melee, because archers have maneuverability". When arguing that that maneuverability comes at the price of lower AC and MAD, I was essentially told to STFU.

Why should archery be inferior to melee?
</rant>

So, any suggestions for a Manifest Spellshaper Beguiler in Eberron?

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:26 am

Lol, Sun Elves are OP. When will it end?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:10 pm

SunTzuWarmaster wrote: So, any suggestions for a Manifest Spellshaper Beguiler in Eberron?

Why not just play a core ranger with normal feats? Isn't everyone else going to be playing a wimpy character as well?

koz · Post by **koz** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:17 pm

Or build a cleric archer. That ought to teach him.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:18 pm

Oh yeah, the party wizard could see a mountain many miles away, but he wasn't allowed to teleport to the peak because he couldn't make out any details.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:40 pm

Honestly, Cleric Archer keeps looking better and better, and I will probably recommend it to one of the other characters. We have a rogue, myself, and a player that ALWAYS plays a melee monster (Fiendish Brute, Barbarian, and Ranger have been his last 3 characters in order, and he states that he hates spells). So Cleric Archer probably looks good for one of the other characters to be the quasi-iconic party (arcane, scout, melee, and cleric).

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:15 pm

What the hell? Now detect magic is no longer allowed to notice the auras of magic traps, our SpC superior resist spell was removed from all further fights because of our tendency to make saving throws thanks to the 'free' +6 resistance bonus to saves, along with encouragement from the DM to have the cleric stop using Extend Spell to give the party day-long+ buffs (enough to allow him to retroactively alter his character's gear and spell choices to not be a buff-machine).

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:52 pm

That all sounds pretty reasonable to be honest. SUperior resistance is a bullshit spell, and regaining the spell slots for buffs which are still running is fvcked.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Apr 10, 2009 9:19 pm

Except he gave us the spell to begin with and it had been present for three sessions prior, on top of the fact it's just more stuff on the pile. I just discovered that the other fighter and the ranger are incapable of scratching a monster with DR 15, and they're 12th level characters. The ranger relies on all of his enemies being giants and monstrous humanoids to have any damage, and the other fighter apparently sacrificed everything to get that 37 AC. Honestly, we need whatever we can get.

I discovered this because our DM, in his infinite wisdom, rolled on the dungeon encounter chart and threw a Nightwalker against us. And I was the only one that could actually damage it, and I didn't even pull out my silver arrows (didn't know IC, so I just suffered through the DR). The lot of them kept it occupied while I plugged away at it for an in-game minute until it got too wounded (~40 left) and ran off.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:28 am

Your party can cast level 6 spells but can't cough up 16 damage?

Wow.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiritualWeapon.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm

Seriously.

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:34 am

slightly offtopic:

Can anyone link me to or simply post here the latest 3.5 Cleric Archer build? I don't even remember what it looks like anymore. Something with a composite greatbow and Zen Archery and a crapton of buffs, IIRC.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:35 pm

Aktariel wrote:slightly offtopic:

Can anyone link me to or simply post here the latest 3.5 Cleric Archer build? I don't even remember what it looks like anymore. Something with a composite greatbow and Zen Archery and a crapton of buffs, IIRC.

The sad fact is that there isn't a "latest" Cleric Archer build, because no one plays by the same rules anymore. I mean, you could write up an archer based on nightsticks and divine metamagic persistence, but what would that really show you? I don't think DMM and Nightsticks are kosher in even one game in five. You can make a build around transforming into an Arrow Demon, but no one knows how transformation works any more and few games would allow it anyway.

Fuck, I don't think even a majority of games play with the PHB errata nerfs to Divine Favor, so getting a +4 Luck Bonus at level 12 (or less in games that let you rub orange ioun stones and candles on your sweaty cleric nutsack for caster levels) should probably still be possible in more games than not.

The Cleric Archer grabs whatever the best allowed weapon is in your campaign and pumps it up with the best buffing routine your campaign believes in. Sometimes that's going to be an Ironwood Warhammer backed up by spikes, sometimes it's going to be a Greatbow backed up by weapon of the deity. There's no consistency, because 3.5 D&D broke its own rules hegemony just before it stopped being supported by WotC.

-Username17

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:53 pm

I'll give you the basics of what I've been working on, however:

28 point buy - str 14, dex 8, con 12, int 10, wis 16, cha 14 (after mods, yes, start as a 6 dex elven archer)
Valenar Elf Keeper of the Past
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_of_Eberron
F - Feeble
1 - Zen Archery
1 - Rapid Shot
D - Elf (PBS)
D - War(Weapon focus(double scimitar) woo!)
3 - Divine Metamagic(persistant spell)
6 - Action Surge? Healing Touch?
9 - Holy Warrior (complete champion)

Start with 14 Charisma. Buff this to 18 at level 3, and blow all of your Turn Attempts on having a Persistant spell (this is probably Divine Favor until it is Divine Power, but it can be Find Traps if you want to be annoying). At level 3 you are out your Turn Attempts and a level 2 spell, for a constant level 1 spell. At level 9 you get to add the highest level War Domain spell that you have to attack and damage, so you do this.

Your level 6 feat is open. I recommend Action Surge (spend 2 action points to Quicken a spell), or Healing Touch (you can heal everyone to 1/2 hp at no cost).

At level 9 you have the following, pretty much continuously (with a Lesser Rod of Extending):
Extended Greater Magic Weapon
Magic Vestment
Divine Power
+4 attack/damage
You, you are at full BAB, with magic weapons and armor, and additional plusses to attacking. Spend all of your gold (except rod) as you wish, because you are a kickass fighter, and still have some spells left over.

The math is laid out below for someone with 14 strength and 22 Wis (16 start, 2 for levels, 4 for items) and a PBS that does +1/(+1/3 BAB) because that is what my DM said he would allow:
+9(BAB)-2(rapid)+6(wis)+2(Extended Greater Magic Weapon)+1(PBS) (the above build)
= +16/+16/+11 (w/in 30) +15/+15/+10
dmg = d8+2(str)+4(HW)+3(str from Divine Power)+3(PBS)+2(Extended Greater Magic Weapon)
= d8+14 (w/in 30) d8+11

Take note that you can add 2 more attacks into the mix with a Spiritual Weapon (War Domain) spell because you aren't really supposed to have BAB that high (Quickened if you get Action Surge). In addition to being a damage monster, you can legitimately get 5 attacks in a round at level 9 and make your fighter and rogue friends cry.

Edit:
Frank is right though, the 3.5 version of this build went out the window. Too many books came out with too many good things in them to determine how it affects the basic build. The obvious things that you need now are: proficiency with bow (Elf or a Silver Flame Cleric), Zen Archery, DMM(persist), and Holy Warrior by level 9. If you opt for Human Silver Flame cleric, you need to try to snag the War Domain for proficiency somehow, so the Keeper is probably the better choice. You get out of cleric by choosing anything that doesn't have feat prerequisites and gives full casting (Ruathar, Church Inquisitor, Seeker of the Misty Isle, and a couple more in Complete Champion).

Alternatively, you go Arrow Demon, but your DM probably ban-hammers this when you do it and you get nothing before you do, so you don't.

Alternatively, you can go over to Ordained Champion. It will destroy your caster level (-2), but you can do it as a human and get a crapload of combat feats. Basic build is:
Human Cleric (Silver Flame) 3 / Church Inquisitor 1-2 / Ordained Champion 5 / whatever else you can grab
1 - Weapon Focus (longbow)
1 - Zen Archery
1 - Rapid Shot
3 - X
5 - Get War Domain (reselect Weapon Focus(longbow) feat), reselect domain powers as combat feats (Action Surge?, PBS?, Precise Shot?)
6 - DMM(persistant/quicken spell)?
9 -
12 - Holy Warrior

If you go with Action Surge, and DMM(quicken) here, you can conceivably quicken 2 spells/day, cast every spell in the War domain as if quickened, and use Action Surge to Quicken a few others per level. This is the reliable way to get those tasty 5+ attacks/round. It comes at the cost of 2 caster levels, but comes with full BAB, good saves, and the loss of Holy Warrior until a later level, which is painful and generally works better as a melee build. A good way to go it your DM hates the DMM(Persist) hack. This mostly depends on how good those combat feats that you get are. This also gets pretty angry because you blow every level 2 spell slot on getting more attacks and fight with an army of ghost weapons.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:33 pm

virgileso wrote:Except he gave us the spell to begin with and it had been present for three sessions prior, on top of the fact it's just more stuff on the pile. I just discovered that the other fighter and the ranger are incapable of scratching a monster with DR 15, and they're 12th level characters. The ranger relies on all of his enemies being giants and monstrous humanoids to have any damage, and the other fighter apparently sacrificed everything to get that 37 AC. Honestly, we need whatever we can get.

I discovered this because our DM, in his infinite wisdom, rolled on the dungeon encounter chart and threw a Nightwalker against us. And I was the only one that could actually damage it, and I didn't even pull out my silver arrows (didn't know IC, so I just suffered through the DR). The lot of them kept it occupied while I plugged away at it for an in-game minute until it got too wounded (~40 left) and ran off.

I would have just started running my own game by now, one where I could tell stories about the gameplay, and not be in a game that I am repeatedly and completely ashamed of myself for having organized or participated in.

I actually killed my group's Eberron game that had been running for two years because I wanted to get the group playing Tome stuff. It worked, and the group will never, ever, look back unless they are forced to.

The most casual player, and most adamant about character development and RP-hungry player and the player that is fine with a beer and pretzels hack-fest all three are as equally for a Tome game over any other kind.

It's not just powergamers that are for this material, every player that I've met seems to enjoy the material. I think that it's for three reasons because it's fucking easy to read and learn (aka. not Sztanzy's or Otto's 15-page bullshit classes); it's well written by both being exacting in it's detail of description and being funny in a very acidic and biting manner; and more importantly the re-writes make effective characters.

Is there anything stopping you from digging up some adventures from online and telling the group that you want to run a game?

You could use something like this:

"Next week, I'm going to run a properly powered and balanced D&D session/adventure.

Games rules:
-You will start at level X (either level 1, or something level 5 or lower; 3 or 4 is good I've found; start the game at 5 if someone wants to be a Vampire, but that's pretty much it)
-You can pick from this class material (the Tome PDF)
-Your stats are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8; arrange as you want.

Note: This will be a very challenging and high-powered campaign where I will not be pulling punches with monsters, and will use their complete range of special abilities to make the game challenging.

Tell me what character ideas you want, and I'll go over the material with you to design a character that fits your design goal.

This material is extremely flexible, and allows everything from being able to play an Ogre, a Vampire, a Fighter or a Monk, and have all four of those characters bring equal amounts of power to the table. Yes, you can play an Elf Vampire Wizard, and you will not have to worry about really overshadowing the Human Fighter, or the Dwarf Barbarian.

Many things have been heavily modified to allow this to happen, and classes like the Fighter, Barbarian, Knight and Monk are now actually capable of standing up to challenges and opponents that they are expected to at every level.

In addition, many of the more problematic parts of the game are re-worked, re-thought or even re-moved in order to improve gameplay. Things such as Wish, Teleportation, Shapechanging and "Why Dungeons Exist" are all addressed.

If you send me your character ideas/concepts, I'll try to give you some suggestions regarding what sort of classes and feats you want to look at in order to acheive your character design goal.

I am also very willing to help players who are unfamiliar with this material to get what they want, and if you want, I can help you recreate an existing, or older character of yours with this new material."

You should also give an example or two of one player's current character; and describe how their character under Tome & etc. rules would look like, and what they could do.

In a game where tome stuff was being used, one of the players (who has had a lot of experience DMing in 3.5.. apparently, I don't know for myself, it's what I have heard and been told) said that they would rather play a PHB barbarian, b/c they didn't think that the new stuff would be any good (a fair decision, most 'new' stuff kind of sucks); and then he read the 2 pages that make up the RoW Barb.

He re-built instantly and without a single scrap of hesitation or delay. Really, everyone who reads the stuff and knows about character building can see the benefits about the new material.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:53 pm

J_E: In Virgil's defense, he actually wants to play in a game rather than dm a game. He is an outstanding DM. The only problem is he has never been in a long running campaign except under this dm and he is trying to stomach the poison.