Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

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Lago_AM3P
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Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Note: A MUCK/MUSH are basically MMORPG equivalents of gaming solely through iRC/Chat.

What makes a person, especially someone who has had over 10 years of online roleplay experience, such a cynical min-maxxer? No one event convinced me. Rather, it was being jilted several times followed by seeing the light of Min-Maxxing over a period of time. For the zero people besides me interested in this tale, here we go.

It was the summer of 2002. I had no job, no college ambition, and no real plans. Why? Well, I had already taken the oath of enlistment for Naval service in February so I was just killing time until I had to ship off. My D&D mania was at the time at its height but I had no real source for gaming. Also at the time, I lacked places to roleplay. OldeMUCK was long-dead and though I didn't know it at the time ChaosMUCK was on its last legs.

Confronted with a serious dearth of distraction, I did what I never thought of before: I went to a MUSH. I was pretty desperate, see, and at the time I had carried over some irrational fear of venturing outside of this codebase. I can't give a reason. It was irrational. But that's not important to the story. Keep in mind that I was just expanding my horizons at the time.

Anyway, after a few dead ends, I had the choice between Winter's Edge and Treyvan for my D&D fix. I was originally hunting for some multi-themed anime place but I had just gotten Sword and Fist, one of the first 3rd Edition supplements. This was burning a hole in my bookcase. Back then, they made supplements of a softcover in black and white with a glossy color insert. Also, pretty much only two artists did the entire project. The production values were nowhere near the level of the oiriginal book, or, later, the supplements made for 3.5E edition.

But to me and many new fans of D&D it may as well have been manna from heaven. I loved that damn book. I haven't enjoyed that book the most out of all of the RPG books I own (I derived a lot more enjoyment from Oriental Adventures, Book of Nine Swords, Exalted 2nd: Scroll of the Monk, and Shadowrun 4th: Street Magic for starters) but that book still meant a lot to me. Almost as much as the core books. I even remember where I bought it. April '02, Hastings, with the last bit of money I had saved up after getting fired from my old job. Knowing me, I probably had those chocolate-covered cookie dough bites they sold, too. I think I also rented Rhapsody, too.

Of course, I had never before followed an RPG. Bitter fans of D&D 2nd Edition, right before it crashed, could have told me through gritted teeth that when Dame Success shoves a fandom's object into her shoddily augmented, veiny boobies that only tragedy follows. I was unaware that my favorite game was going to be intellectually bankrupt by a flood of material just like this and experience the same death of oversaturation that the previous edition has. Of course, that's a separate rant and has yet to happen for a couple of years. As far as I was concerned, Sword and Fist had friggin' Drunken Master, un'errated Ninja of the Crescent Moon, Pain Touch, and a ring of Shocking Blows.

I decided to check out Winter's Edge first. The basis for my decision in no small way due to a little website called When Online RPGS Attack! Imagine if Something Awful tried to review online roleplaying. That was WORA. Anyway, Treyvan was getting slammed heavily on the boards at the time. A lot of the criticism and snark stemmed from the perceived ineptitude of the staff there to bridge the gap of a face-to-face pen-and-paper game to an online textual mass roleplaying game. I can cut the game some slack in retrospect, because the actual honest-to-god D&D game itself was undergoing a paradigm shift. If there was bitter conflict between the game designers on how a game should be run then how much could you fairly expect from a group of amateurs doing it as a hobby?

For those of you who haven't played Icewind Dale (which the game is pretty much a homage to), Winter's Edge is supposed to be the mechanism for the tale of several adventurers who settled at the frontier town of Vintermor. For people who couldn't pick up on the three 'cold' references of the last sentence, the town is located at literally the edge of civilization bordering an unliveable tundra. For such a relatively small city, there are a lot of strange things afoot in this area. It's up to you and your team of plucky adventurers to set things straight. Or load up on cash and whores. They didn't judge you.

Of course, it was an application-only game and the application process required me to put a lot of detail into the character I wanted. I gave my character some consideration, but not as much as you'd think, since I had wanted to play the archetype I was going to apply for a long time. I had always liked to play the 'outsider' characters. Not necessarily social misfits of exiles, but characters that had just something about them that didn't fit into the genre scope. Not so much, say, an extraterrestrial character in Dragonlance but more say if one of King Arthur's knights decided to forgo armor and weaponry and fight with his hands and feet.

As you might have guessed from the previous sentence, I have a soft spot for characters that are skilled in hand-to-hand combat. Dungeons and Dragons had catered to my puerile need in the form of the monk class. I wanted more of an anime martial artist feel to my character than the Mortal Kombat martial artist feel that the monk class has in the book, but hey, that was pretty much my only option for hand-to-hand. And the options on paper looked pretty sweet. Self-healing? Death touch? Flurry of blows? SPELL RESISTANCE? Where do I sign?

However, as a lot of min-maxxers will tell you, the monk class sucks eggs. I mean from a mechanical standpoint. The best summary of why this is so is contained in an analysis done back when 3.0E was in full swing and monks were at the supposed top of their game thanks to a sourcebook called Oriental Adventures. It's old but highlights a lot of the basic problems of the class. Here's the link right here.

At the time, though, I didn't know I was making an inherently sucky character. I was used to freeform games where characters operated by fiat and gentleman's agreement instead of numbers. If I stated that my character concept involved hitting things with his fists and doing backflips all over the place, he did that and performed competently in the story. And in D&D, I was a monk, ready to punch evil right in the Hitler-stache. Winter's Edge cushioned the suck I was going headlong towards with a very generous point-buy system (As in, all increases were 1-for-1 and it was 32 points).

Unfortunately, due to what I just stated in the last paragraph, I packed a lot of points into typical monk dump stats. I believe I had a 16 in STR, a 16 in CHA, an 8 in CON, a 12 in INT, a 14 in WIS, and a 14 in DEX. Amazingly crappy distribution, I know, but the personality of the character was much more important to me than the fighting. Well, not really, but like a lot of 'roleplayers' I had put unwarranted, self-deluded trust in the system I didn't understand fully--the game wouldn't have provided me with options that would screw me over, right?

I don't remember my character's background well. He was an upper-middle class fop who lived in a big, temperate city who 'wasted' his times as an athlete and a socialite. He diddled a lot of his time working on a martial art style he made up. After a fight with his parents, he, on a whim, left with a caravan heading to Vintermor to establish a new outpost. The hardship, like he had never faced before, almost turned him back until he fell in love with a rough Amazon-like woman going with him. They hit it off and my character actually considered putting down his skills and completely abandoning his old life and living an honest life as a pioneer.

Unfortunately, she died in one of the typical monster attacks and his new family ostracized him. So he went back to Vintermor, nearly broke and only his self-taught style to his name. Desperate for money, he hung out in the worst parts of town and preyed on burglars until he had saved up enough money to get a regular place to stay. Of course, he had found that he LIKED danger and violence and loved to beat on the scum of society. So he decided to take up adventuring.

And ah, the personality. He was sly, cosmopolitan and even-minded with what I thought at the time was a wicked sense of sarcasm and humor. Of course, I'm not that good at snarkiness. So to other people his antics were more silly than sardonic. But I liked the feel, it made him feel less dark and even a little goofy at times. Made my character seem like a bright spot in a pretty dour and grim setting.

His name was Joel Leonwright. Yes, Joel. I named my character after myself--that's pretty much one of the classic Sue traits. I was trained by a couple of years of reading fanfics given the MST3K treatment. Self-conscious, I strived to avoid this impression like the plague to the point where I gave the staff a fake first name for registration. But I went through character creation, applied, and I was accepted. Now that my character had been given life, it was time to search for adventure!

Unfortunately, one of the biggest failings of trying to do P&P on a MU* is that you do not have a dedicated DM to hand-feed you adventures. You could spend hours--days even--looking for someone to set the scene you so desperately wanted to play. Of course, games like these tried to mitigate things by letting non-staff run their own pltos (with monsters, death, treasure, and everything) but since I was new to the game I couldn't just muscle into a group or whip one up from scratch. I was going to have to establish both the out-of-character and in-game connections first before setting Joel down the path of kung-fu justice in the arctic. I was going to have to do some regular slice-of-life roleplay. I was goint to have to do some CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Gasp! Shock! Horror! Shameful masturbation! Stay tuned. We'll back that ass up with more tales if anyone cares.
shirak
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by shirak »

A) Great story, keep it coming!

B) Shouldn't this be In The Trenches?

C) Your link to the Monk analysis isn't there.
rapanui
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by rapanui »

Keep going. This resonates a lot with me on many levels. Not as a player, but as a DM that put a little too much faith in problematic system.
User3
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by User3 »

I suspect this is the link Lago meant to insert in his tale:

Why Monks?
Catharz
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Catharz »

I'm rapt.
User3
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by User3 »

I care, Lago - there you have a number of interested people higher than 0. Given the ginormously titanic size of this forum (a winning point, mind), you may say you've sparked a lot of interest.
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Leress »

I want to hear more, it takes me back to when I started playing Dnd.
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CalibronXXX
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by CalibronXXX »

Interesting. I can't really relate since my early Role-playing experience was free-form, and when I got my hands on D&D I instinctualy jumped into the power gamer mindset with both feet.

Didn't stop me from making my first character a Monk though; I share your desire to kick ass with my bare hands.
Amra
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Amra »

Another vote here for you to carry on... Interesting stuff and entirely different from my own experiences!
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Well, okay. Here's part II.

Damn, this thing is long. WTH, man?

So there I was. Mr. Leonwright the kickass monk was freezing his butt off while looking for the next adventure. I was beginning to discover that just because you imagined your character as a swashbuckling landstalker who had considerable experience in his background didn't mean that adventure would just come to you. Both me and my character explored the city (metagamedly, of course) to get a feel for our surroundings. Vintermor, despite being populated by weather and battle-hardened frontier people was surprisingly advanced. The sewer system was built in such a way so that the geothermal vents kept the city at a reasonable temperature--undoubtedly with magic--and Vintermor was relatively culturally tolerant. I became familiar with the overall layout of the city and learned where to get supplies. I especially scouted out the bad section of town. Since I was still OOC, I didn't expect to have to deal with dangers like muggers and murderers.

Still, after a few hours of this, I wished there WERE a couple of vagrants to beat up on. I hope you won't think of me a lesser man for leaning on the +whereis function and heading over to the primordal soup of role-playing plot generators: the seedy tavern. Joel sauntered over to the Bloody Dryad, a charming joint most noted for the roughness of the clientele and the imagery of crucified forest creatures carved into the walls. A badass joint for what I thought was a badass character.

My character, a blonde, clean-cut guy who screamed 'city-boy' was almost as out of place as a charming young bard named Alaeria. Both me the player and my character had no idea what she was doing here. Since we were the two biggest misfits in the joint, my not-very-shy monk went over to her and had a conversation. We hit it off, but to my character's dismay she already had a boyfriend, a sorceror by the name of Rayne. We became fast friends, since an antisocial adventurer is hardly an adventurer at all in the world of D&D and agreed to talk to each other later.

I took a break from the game for the day. Inuyasha and Cowboy Bebop were the mainstays of Cartoon Network that year and I watched the hell out of those shows. So the next day, since it was summer vacation, I got up real late and connected again. I had parked my character at an inn and went downstairs to continue my quest for adventuring partners. And lo and behold there was Alaeria, Rayne, and a stately looking paladin I had never seen before. He was clearly a friend of the two based by how they were sitting. Joel traded some good-natured barbs with Rayne just to show that he was cool and then sat down and had a serious discussion with Lothar.

Both my character and I liked these guys. A brief description of their characters is as follows:

Alaeria- A single-classed human bard who had a very sweet sort of innocence to her except for the fact that she liked to charm men into doing her bidding. Not with her magic, mind, just with her cuteness. She, being a D&D character, had a penchant for violence and hardship that only seemed to enhance this quality. I think she had the spells of charm person and silent image and I KNOW she had cure light wounds. The other spells are a mystery to me, lost in time.

Lothar- Lothar is a human paladin played close to type. Serious, dedicated, and prideful. But he had an innate sense of warmth to him and wasn't against creature comforts like sleeping in beds or drinking ale. He sort of insisted, in fact. If Alaeria was the brains of our operation then he was the heart. Like my character, he had sort of weaselled (or in his case, invited himself) into Alaeria and Rayne's somewhat private world. But he had such a fatherly, stately manner to him that no one cared. I don't remember his build too well. He was 2nd level when I met him and I don't remember if he had a fighter or ranger level in there. Regardless, he packed quite a punch in battle. Along with Daniel and Miria (later additions) he was the real contributer of butt-kicking for goodness for our ragtag band.

Rayne- A half-elf sorcerer. Unlike a lot of sorcerers, he was very mild-mannered and gentle. Rayne, more than even his girlfriend, didn't seem like much of the adventuring type except for his fascination--almost obsession--with dragons. Or rather, his dragon-heritage. This was his impetus to continue risking life and limb even though with his knowledge and his unoffensive charm he could be living a very comfortable life. One also got the feeling that he allowed Alaeria to convince him to take on things he normally wouldn't do on his own. He specialized in evocation spells, especially magic missile.

One of the many shady things going on in the city was the disappearances of the city's few homeless. Since the shelter and the sewers were the only places people could live through the night, the sewer was the obvious point of investigation. We pooled what meager information we had together and more-or-less came to the conclusion that a cult dedicated to the goddess of undead (not Wee Jas, a more sinister one in this mythology) were using human sacrifices. For what, that could not be made certain, as there were no signs or reports of undead.

The conversation and bonding lasted through the evening and none of our characters noticed a ratlike man in tattered robes departing the inn after listening to us for awhile. Except for our table, everyone had retired to their rooms for the night including the barkeep. We were about to, as well, when we noticed the floorboards buckling.

It seemed like a good idea to build the inn on higher ground, I suppose, to make it look more stately. The bad thing (which I'm sure the lowly NPC commoners who ran it didn't consider) was that three fiendish amalgams of human and rats could tunnel through and ambush people who were getting too close to their affairs. It was fortunate that they decided to attack now rather than later, when we would've been separated. But regardless, the time for contemplation was over. It was do or die.

There was definitely some supernatural element to the monsters. Rayne and Alaeria ran away screaming in fear at the first sight of them. Lothar held his ground and reached for his intentionally plain bastard sword. My monkly advantages seemed to be working well for me--I barely made the will save and unhooked my nunchakus. Convinced of my character's invincibility, I was about to charge into until Lothar--the more levelheaded one, used his free action to tell me to wait behind raised cover to make things easier.

So I stood by him while my other two compatriots were in the corner. Since we were blocking the path to our temporarily incapacitated friends, they had to get through us. They approached but couldn't get past Lothar's armor and cover nor my imagined expertise at dodging. Lothar's blade swung and struck first, nearly felling the beast in one. I, the player, was amazed at that kind of damage. Even at full power-attack, his chances of hitting were higher than mine ever hoped to be. And the damage wasn't even comparable. 1d10+8, at an average of 13.5 damage a round.

He rolled low, however, and I ironically took heart again. I had picked up the feats of power attack and cleave with my eye on great cleave. My plan was to invest in the great cleave / spring attack chain. I had imagined my character would one day become like that of Kasumi Kenshiro, a fearless martial artist who moved so fast that his enemies couldn't hit him and unleashed a flurry of attacks so fast and punishing that hordes of monsters would go down within seconds. Of course, as even an amateur D&D player could tell you, these two feat chains--especially when coupled with the low offensive output of a monk--were completely non-synergistic. But that thought hadn't even occured to me. To me, the book promised me speed and power.

It was my turn to take my attacks. I had a strength of 16, masterwork nunchakus, and a height bonus of +1 to attack. Of course, Lothar was to thank for that bonus, as I didn't even know it existed. My damage was a paltry 1d6+3. Yet I was second level and could power attack. And I also had cleave. And flurry of blows. The smart thing would've been to attack the wounded one and count on cleave. But that would not do. I was so amazed at the casual damage output Lothar applied that I felt I had to take a big risk. Knowingly or not, he was one of the first people to challenge how I felt about this game of D&D and my character and I had to prove that my choices weren't a mistake.

I took a flurry of blows and power attacked for +1 damage. I would've easily pumped more into if it I could. 1d6+4 damage. If this worked, things were looking up. The first attack missed by a long shot. But I had an extra attack--and it hit! I rolled well on damage and the monster fell. I used my cleave feat, posing something cool like holding the rope and crushing the creatures windpipe with the sakon and cracking his skull open with the ukon simultaneously after the first one fell down. Another minor miracle and my second attack hit. I almost caught up to Lothar!

The ratmonsters retaliated. They showed no sense of grief for the death of someone so like them, only the driven fury of a mad animal. They lashed out with claws, splitting their four attacks between the two of them. Even though their attack bonuses were low, they managed to score a hit on poor Joel. And I balked at the damage, admittedly well-rolled on its part. 7 hp? I was a monk and I had a constitution penalty, because that part seemed the least important to me. I just passed it off as my character having chronic asthma, never dreaming that it would come back to haunt me. Another attack like that and I would be going down.

Of course, the reinforcements came. Alaeria and Rayne's fear effects wore off and they came to aid their new comrades. The bard rushed towards me with a Cure Light Wounds. It was a low number, but it had already eliminated the chance of me getting killed by just one lucky roll--barring a critical hit of course. Rayne came forth with a magic missile. I think he was surprised more by how little it did than I even I was. I had played some Baldur's Gate on my PC and magic missile was a staple. You could always count on it. But in 3rd Edition? Rayne was 2nd level and he could've dumped all of his spell slots trying to kill with magic missile and had a good chance not to drop any of them.

Hero Lothar fought as before. Another sword swing, not power-attacked, and he effortlessly killed the assaulting rat-being. To my relief, he didn't have cleave, or the fight would've clearly been his. It was my turn and operating under the mentality as before, I did the power attack + flurry of blows thing. Both of my attacks missed, alas. The rat was lucky on the attacks, scoring two hits, but not so lucky on the damage. Even though Lothar was down by an equal amount of hp I overall had less. Alaeria came with another cure, bringing me nearly to full, and Rayne shot another reliable but puny magic missile. I couldn't tell you whether or not he was in the same state of denial that I was, or if it was because he had literally no other option.

Lothar rolled a natural 20, but no critical. Regardless, the rat died and we were the victors. Our battle of less than a minute had woken up the entire inn. Rightly so, the innkeeper said that we couldn't stay here until things had calmed down, as he feared for his patrons. We agreed, more mad at the ambushers than his rules, and decided that we had to complete the investigation as quickly as possible if this kind of thing was going to happen. Experience was handed out, but no loot. I was a 4th of a way to the next level. Since it was a relatively long session, our players decided to break it up and call it a day.

It was a good battle. Nobody died and it was very good experience. But the entire thing left a bad taste in my mouth. I was very lucky with what I did do. I was almost a noncontributer to the battle. But unlike Alaeria or Rayne, the one thing I could do just wasn't enough. I was second banana, practically a leech. I looked over to my player's handbook again, trying to figure out what went wrong. I was entitled to a second attack in 4 more levels. By then, I would have a speed of 50 feet and I would have an extra +2 to AC just by my levels and the dodge feat. I was going to have magical items that would boost my imagined superiority of monk AC so I could stand firm in battle like Lothar. And my fist dice was getting bigger.

I then looked ahead to level 20. I was entitled to an attack many times bigger in my eyes than any weapon ever printed. I would've gotten damage reduction that would've made those rats look like fools. Self-healing. An instant death attack. The ability to fall from the abyss and survive. To leap over entire buildings! And the holy grail of monkdom, SPELL RESISTANCE. Why, combined with that and my saves, I would be an invincible punisher of evil.

I then opened up Sword and Fist and looked at my expansion options. Pain Touch. That would've turned the tide of the battle had I gotten it. Of course, with my wisdom score I would have to put a point in it at level 4 and then picked up a +4 peripapt of wisdom before I could take it. And a ring of shocking blows. Why, if I had that, my damage output would've been phenomenal! And I eyed the (unerrata'd) Ninja of the Crescent Moon. The BAB bonus and the sneak attack and the other LITTLE options that to someone who didn't know the rules but would've definitely aided the conception off the character was appealing. But the spell resistance was so appealing to me that I thought I was just going to stay the course.

Regardless, going through all that did help me feel better and reaffirmed my faith in the game.I felt better again. All I would have to do was stick out these unsatisfying, no undignifying levels for awhile. I remembered a meme I had heard from somewhere. I had never seriously played a game before now but even I knew what it was: Disappointment now, power later. Wizards start off weak but end up the most powerful. I had just picked up a class that was a late bloomer. One day I would be standing firm against the hordes and be the one the party would give thanks to.

As I logged off and spent the rest of my day idly, I had no way of knowing that that last battle would be the high point of my career.

(edited because of intensely crappy Notepad formatting)
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Lago_AM3P »

By the way, back when D&D was new and we were all idiots, was I the only one going OMGOMGOMGOMG SPELL RESISTAAAAAAANCE FAPFAPFAPFAPFAAAAAAAP in regards to the monk?

I don't think anyone cares about spell resistance anymore. I mean, clerics get it at a lower level than monks and have a much better version of it to boot. Oh, well. That somehow didn't come up back then.
rapanui
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by rapanui »

I remember back in '01 looking at the monk class and thinking it was sweet. One of the players in my first 3e campaign ran a monk/rogue and only did anything remotely notable when he sneak attacked. I also pointed out the un-errated Ninja of the Crescent Moon to him, I think he took one level before the campaign ended. The main powerhouses were the Wizard (using every broken 3e spell in the book... foregoing Magic Missile for Sleep... he knew what he was doing, I did not) and the Elf Fighter (the elf was a high STR/ high DEX archer... he had a huge BAB, multiple attacks punishing attacks every round... he put the ranger and monk to shame).
shirak
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by shirak »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1183295145[/unixtime]]By the way, back when D&D was new and we were all idiots, was I the only one going OMGOMGOMGOMG SPELL RESISTAAAAAAANCE FAPFAPFAPFAPFAAAAAAAP in regards to the monk?


If anything, I did worse. The one thing I loved about 3rd was the Strength Domain. I had visions of Hercules when I first heard of that thing
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by RandomCasualty »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1183295145[/unixtime]]By the way, back when D&D was new and we were all idiots, was I the only one going OMGOMGOMGOMG SPELL RESISTAAAAAAANCE FAPFAPFAPFAPFAAAAAAAP in regards to the monk?

I don't think anyone cares about spell resistance anymore. I mean, clerics get it at a lower level than monks and have a much better version of it to boot. Oh, well. That somehow didn't come up back then.


Yeah, Hell back when I saw the monk, I was screaming "OMG overpowered!! look at all those abilities and 1d20 damage!"

I remember me and my friends speculating how they decided to make Martial arts uber to try to capture some of the popularity of the Matrix, which had just been released a little while ago.

I even think we banned the monk for a few campaigns because it was overpowered. So the monk was out, but 3.0 haste was in...

Yeah, we were morons back then :P
Catharz
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Catharz »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1183294030[/unixtime]]And I eyed the (unerrata'd) Ninja of the Crescent Moon. The BAB bonus and the sneak attack and the other LITTLE options that to someone who didn't know the rules but would've definitely aided the conception off the character was appealing. But the spell resistance was so appealing to me that I thought I was just going to stay the course.


I did the exact same thing! I never got to a high enough level to get that SR, either.
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erik
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by erik »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1183295145[/unixtime]]By the way, back when D&D was new and we were all idiots, was I the only one going OMGOMGOMGOMG SPELL RESISTAAAAAAANCE FAPFAPFAPFAPFAAAAAAAP in regards to the monk?


I don't think I ever liked monks in 3rd edition, though I did play with a party who had an extremely crappy high dex-high wisdom human monk with weapon finesse, who became an abomination as soon as our wizard got polymorph other in his pants. We had a stone giant monk, then later a solar monk (before the first of many polymorph erratas). Due to our "restart characters at level 1" policy, I was trying to measure up to a solar monk who had quivering palm (not that quivering palm is so hot, but just to emphasize the gap)... with a 7th level halfling rogue. Oy vey.

I remember trying an exercise for which 20th level class could best solo a great wyrm dragon (gold or red, don't remember) right after I got my monster manual, and my spell-fu was much weaker. At the time the cleric seemed like the winner and use of spell resistance on the cleric was part of the planned buffage (along with copious death knells on a herd of cattle).
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Iaimeki »

My very first D&D character (3rd edition, observe) involved levels of monk. However, at least I did have the sense to multiclass like 10 classes in 20 levels: I still sucked, but that's because all meleers suck at 20th-level. My second, entirely theoretical character, was a caster, after I started to get the inkling that casters dominate 3rd edition.
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tzor
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by tzor »

I am reminded of an old saying we used in the 1E days, "Monks suck at low levels but they get way better at high levels." When I started playing 3E I realized monks suck at low levels but ... on second thought monks just suck period.
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by User3 »

I actually played nothing but Clerics in 3e. Ok, no serious characters other than clerics. (My Expert/Gnomish Artificer was a blast to roleplay, and actually capable of doing stuff, but that was a silly campaign).

It started as me being the only person willing to play a Cleric (I really wanted to play Wizards, but *no one* else wanted to play clerics). And quickly i discovered the buff cleric. Of course, we had Bull's Strength that lasted "all day" (1hr/level) back then, and so i spent almost as much time buffing other party members as myself. But yeah, it was within a few weeks of switching over to 3e that i discovered one of the keys to power in 3.x. And because i was buffing everyone else, it took the DM a few weeks to notice it wasn't the party who pwned, it was me who pwned. Good times.
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by User3 »

La, i should really find my password and log in.

I also discovered knockdown/improved trip (pre-errata) on my own that same year. People were calling my fighter/rogue (in a separate short campaign) totally broken because of it. Its the last time I saw a fighter singlehandedly deal with a level+3 threat.

I also predicted Wizards were the path to true power at high levels, but never actually got to test the theory (someone else always wanted to play them, and I still believed in some semblance of party balance then). I do remember noticing that the change in mechanics (more HD, harder saves to make) made Save or Die and similar spells more threatening, and DD virtually worthless.

I just notice things about systems without meaning to - its not that i try to minmax intentionally, its that i notice stuff which is min/max-like, and feel remiss if i *don't* use it. I mean, who wants to intentionally hobble their character? The weird esoteric combos are usually beyond my patience to sort through everything and put together, but some things just scream out at you.
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by dbb »

Lago, I've really enjoyed -- maybe enjoyed isn't the right word, but you know what I mean -- reading this so far. I'm looking forward to reading more. In a lot of ways, it mirrors my unwritten "Why I Don't Play D&D Any More" post.

I think playing online tends to make people min-maxers -- or maybe it just drives people further if they were going in that direction already. You're playing under the auspices of DMs who (generally) don't know you and who (again generally) don't give a damn about you. You get encounters that somebody made up without any real notion of what characters would run into it. You get the loot the dice say you get, regardless of who needs help more. You're constantly thrown together with different groups of people that have vastly different ideas about what the appropriate power level is. If you create a character who isn't spectacularly great -- and sometimes even if you do -- you may well end up unable to affect the game in any meaningful way.

--d.
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by fbmf »

[TGFBS]
Moved to In The Trenches.
[/TGFBS]
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by JonSetanta »

OK you got my attention <_<;;
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by CalibronXXX »

This is really cool, any chance of a continuance?
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Re: Why I Am A Min-Maxxer

Post by Bigode »

Calibron at [unixtime wrote:1186672030[/unixtime]]This is really cool, any chance of a continuance?
Same here.
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