The Level Progression System Using Pie

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Brobdingnagian
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The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Brobdingnagian »

That's right, not pi, but pie. You see, my younger brother didn't quite grasp the concept of how power increases in D&D.

He asked me, "Can't two level fives match a single level 10?"

To which I responded, "No."

"Why not?"

Myself and JE went through a long, tedious process trying to explain to him how it wasn't equal, to no effect. Then I had an idea.

You see, my brother has this strange obsession with pie. Not an unhealthy obsession, simply somewhat strange. So I thought I knew a way to use that to my advantage.

"Okay, it works like this. First level is one whole pie. Second level is two pies. So how many pies are third and fourth level?"

"Three and four."

"No. Third level is four pies, and fourth level is eight pies."

"What?"

"See, at each level, the number of pies you had at last level doubles. So at fifth level, you have sixteen pies, at sixth, you have thirty-two, at seventh you have sixty-four, at eighth you have one hundred twenty-eight, at ninth you have two hundred fifty-six, and at tenth you have five hundred twelve."

"But why?"

"Because each time you gain a level, you don't just gain hit points. If you did, then you wouldn't get more pies, just bigger pies. Instead you also get a whole whack of new abilities, which is why there's such a huge gap in the number of pies between two levels."

"Oh, okay. I get it now."

So, yeah. Granted, it's not entirely accurate, but it's a good way of getting the message across. If you ever find yourself in such a situation, feel free to substitute the pies for chocolate bars, sticks of gum, joints, or theme parks, whatever suits your needs best.
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Cielingcat
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Cielingcat »

It would be perfectly accurate if you doubled the pies every second level, since the CR system tells us that every time you double the number of monsters, you increase the CR by 2.
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Judging__Eagle
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Hmm, that works.

We were using the Fibonacci sequence (starting at the second number, so we had 1*, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8 .... ; *: (ignored)) and it seemed close enough at the time.
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MrWaeseL
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by MrWaeseL »

How old is your brother?
Brobdingnagian
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Brobdingnagian »

18.
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tzor
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by tzor »

:confused: I like your argument, but it's got to be wrong ... somehow. It violates the grand unified multiclassing theory ... I think.

Basically if you are a X/Class character and you gain a level, you should be the same CR equivalent whether you take the level X+1 of the Class or you take the first level of some other class. Therefore the pies for each level as must be the same, otherwise the multiclasser would be at a distinct CR disadvantage.

So why is 2 CR X < 1 CR 2X? Set theory. Basically two characters of the same level have a lot of features that effectively overlap each other. If you take effective power as an area then you have to add the area of each character and then subtract the area of the overlap. When people gain levels they always add new features which in theory should never "overlap" with their existing features (just add to them).

So in theory a 5th level cleric + a 5th level fighter < 10th level whatever, a 5th level cleric / 5th level fighter should be = to a 10th level whatever.

So it's not you get more pies, but that the pies overlap on the table.
Brobdingnagian
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Brobdingnagian »

A good point and well worth remembering.
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Cielingcat
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Cielingcat »

Most people solve that problem by simply having abilities scale, so that if you're a 5th level Fighter you get 5th level abilities, but if you're a Fighter 5/Cleric 5, you're getting 10th level abilities.

D&D doesn't do that though.
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MrWaeseL
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by MrWaeseL »

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1177476213[/unixtime]]18.


Did he...fall on his head?
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JonSetanta
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by JonSetanta »

Well, multiclassing seems to go against your theory. Seems a character resembling anything like a Fighter/Mage actually loses power in comparison to other single-classed of their same level.
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Catharz
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Catharz »

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1177548327[/unixtime]]Well, multiclassing seems to go against your theory. Seems a character resembling anything like a Fighter/Mage actually loses power in comparison to other single-classed of their same level.


Right. A wizard 2 is worth 2. A fighter 2 is worth 2. A wizard 1/fighter 1 is worth 1+1 = 2.

A wizard 3 is worth 4. A fighter 3 is worth 4. A wizard 2/fighter 1 is worth 2+1 = 3.

A wizard 5 is worth 16. A fighter 5 is worth 16. A fighter 3/wizard 2 is worth 4+2 = 6. This accurately represents multiclass-based sucking to the extent that it accurately represents a class's power.
Brobdingnagian
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Brobdingnagian »

No, he didn't fall on his head. Though there was this one time we actually broke a rock on his head with no apparent damage to him...

But whatever. What Catharz said.
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Judging__Eagle
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Hmm, using pies tied to individual classes levels, then adding them up to see a characters total number of Pies works.


It also explains why the "Monster PC" with 5 Hit Dice is really, really hard to play at anything past level 6.

He's already got 16 Pies from Monster HD, but only 1 from his first Class level.

So, he's got 17 Pies, but everyone else has 32. If he can use his pies well, it won't be noticable, since he's got 'special' monster pies that do abnormal things, but whatever.

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Catharz
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Re: The Level Progression System Using Pie

Post by Catharz »

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1177596108[/unixtime]]Hmm, using pies tied to individual classes levels, then adding them up to see a characters total number of Pies works.


It also explains why the "Monster PC" with 5 Hit Dice is really, really hard to play at anything past level 6.

He's already got 16 Pies from Monster HD, but only 1 from his first Class level.

So, he's got 17 Pies, but everyone else has 32. If he can use his pies well, it won't be noticable, since he's got 'special' monster pies that do abnormal things, but whatever.

Remember that while (for the most part) barbarian, bard, wizard, cleric, summoner, and druid are all different sets of pies, barbarian, monk, fighter, knight, samurai, kuo-toan moniter, death knight, and channeler are all the same set of pies.

So, for the most part, a pure warrior multiclass still has level appropriate pies, and a channeler multiclass does too.

If you assume that gargoyle acts as a warrior class, a gargoyle 5/(OR barbarian monk channeler) 1 should have all his pies.

A gargoyle with a single level of fighter gets full weapons an armor proficiency and a free reroll once per round (because he doesn't have other swift actions), plus saves & BAB +1 & skills. Overall, the gargoyle compares favorably to a fighter 6. He lacks many of the tactical options, but he also gets flight.

Similarly, you could take a one-level dip and hop right into Death Knight.
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