It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

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Neeek
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Neeek »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1120753649[/unixtime]]
Neeek wrote:none of the blasts I *could* get are worth losing Flight, Invis, or an AoE attack spell (that doesn't count as an attack spell for Invis) to me.


If you cast a spell with an area effect, and that are includes a foe, that counts as an attack for the purposes of Invisibility.




Ah. You are correct. My mistake.
Carcharoth
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Carcharoth »

I'm working on a build, but I'm running into some stumbling blocks.

I'm pondering levels of Scout, Barbarian, Ranger, and Dervish at the moment (although Dervish could definitely change). Does Dervish Dance works if used as part of a charge? If so, it could produce a pounce-like effect, which would be neato for wilderness warrior jaguar dude.


I really don't want to overdo Scout - probably capping it at level 4 so I don't take any more than 1 BAB hit, but I like its abilities and skills. I'm also stuck between wanting to use a Glaive (reach, 2 handed Power Attacking goodness, nice with Spring Attack, and fits the Aztec spear-warrior motif) or TWF with some Tiger Claws. Is there such a thing as a claw-bracer like weapon that isn't Exotic? I want something to occupy the 5 foot range in case of close fighting.

Feats I'm looking at are the Spring Attack chain, Power Attack, Leap Attack, and maybe Brachiation if I can squeeze an extra feat in somewhere, which I doubt. The idea is to stealth through the woods / trees, leap out of nowhere and slash something up. It's noteworthy that Dervish3 gives Spring Attack for free, and Scout4 has a bonus feat.

I guess I'm asking for help with the details of a build. Filling wilderness skills and mobile melee is the goal.
dbb
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by dbb »

If you're looking for Pounce, why not stick in some levels of Singh Rager? The original flavor won't fit at all, of course, but the general idea works just as well for "Leopard-Inspired Fighter Guys" as for "Lion-Inspired Fighter Guys".

Granted, getting Pounce will suck up 4 levels, and you may not have that many to spare in the build, but I think it might be worth considering. I forget what its skill list looks like, though.

--d.
Carcharoth
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Carcharoth »

Singh Rager - I've heard this, but not in a long time. Is this in OA? Also, if I time the Scout levels right, I can make up for some lost skill points by taking a level or 2 of Scout (8+ Int skill points, and one hell of a skill list) last.

Edit: Yep, OA, found it. That works really quite nicely, actually, and I wouldn't need Barbarian levels since they get Rage. The BAB requirement is steep - 7. I like the lion-themed stuff, and could easily see jaguar transference. I'll see what I can do with this.

Double edit: Their skill list isn't bad, but they're 2+int skill points. Definitely more Scout / Ranger levels will be needed to balance that out, or a naturally high Int.
dbb
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by dbb »

Oh, yikes, I'd forgotten that it wanted BAB +7. That's kind of a kick in the head, since it means you don't get to start the game with the ability that you actually want out of the class. Assuming I haven't gotten confused on this score also -- my books are at home. And I will be also in a couple of hours, so I can poke around for more stuff once I get there.

--d.
Wrenfield
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Wrenfield »

Carcharoth,

Go the Psychic Warrior route for "swift action" Pounce ability. Go Ranger for wilderness skills.

Start at:

Psychic Warrior 2 / Ranger 3

... then take ...

War Mind 3 / Horizon Walker 2

***

This will give you tons of Pounce opportunities, while still allowing you to get a significant amount of Rangerly skills. Continue the interlacing of War Mind and Horizon Walker levels until you decide if and when Dervish becomes your desired path.

At 10th level, BAB is +9. You should be able to max out Survival to be the party tracker. You could even take a level of Barbarian later along with a level of Horizon Walker that eliminates post-Rage fatigue.

Hope that helps.
Neeek
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Neeek »

Wrenfield at [unixtime wrote:1120806873[/unixtime]]Carcharoth,

Go the Psychic Warrior route for "swift action" Pounce ability. Go Ranger for wilderness skills.

Start at:

Psychic Warrior 2 / Ranger 3

... then take ...

War Mind 3 / Horizon Walker 2


Slightly confused. Where exactly does the Pounce ability come in? It's a 2nd level power(both of them, actually, Hustle and Lion's Charge both work), which requires either 4th level Warmind or a 4th level Psychic Warrior. Some combination of 5 levels of Barb, Ranger and Fighter plus 5 of Warmind would work, with Educated and Wild Talent. You'd get a bunch of cool abilities and full BAB all the way.
MrWaeseL
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by MrWaeseL »

So...anyone want to comment on my draft on page 3? I was thinking of switching lingering damage with perfect TWF so I have two extra feats.
Username17
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Username17 »

From a purely min/max standpoint, there is no reason to ever take Perfect TWF as a bonus feat when you can take Perfect MWF. It does the same thing, but if you happen to end up transformed into a centimani or equipped with armor spikes or whatever, you get to use those as well with no penalties.

Two Weapon Fighting has literally no advantages over multiweapon fighting. The first allows you one secondary weapon, the other allows you one or more secondary weapon(s).

-Username17
MrWaeseL
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by MrWaeseL »

Yeah, you're right. Good catch.
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Essence
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Essence »

Can someone front me the information on Precocious Apprentice, or whatever feat it is that gives you a 2nd level spell slot? Could I use that with Hexblade to get into Divine Crusader at 7th level instead of 8th?

Thanks!
Kirin_Corrigan
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Kirin_Corrigan »

Can be taken only as a first level character.

Prereqs: arcane caster level 1st, spellcasting stat (Int or Cha) 15

Benefit: Choose a 2nd level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd level spell slot you can use only to cast that spell (you must succeed on DC 8 Caster Level check to cast the spell). When you become able to cast 2nd level spells you may prepare any 2nd level spell in the extra slot.

---
Unfortunately, the above info is of no use if you plan to go for Hexblade, since «Through 3rd level, a Hexblade has no caster level.» (CW, page 8, right above table 1-2).
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Essence
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Essence »

That's totally retarded. What if your character's apprenticeship happens after 1st level? You suddenly can't be precocious anymore?

It should be "You can only take this feat before or upon gaining your first *caster* level."

In fact, I'm going to assume that Frank will allow that.

That means that, off the cuff, I'm looking at:

Human (Weapon Focus: Greatclub)
Barbarian 1 (Power Attack)
Barbarian 2
Hexblade 1/Barbarian 2 (Cleave)
Hexblade 2/Barbarian 2
Hexblade 3/Barbarian 2
Hexblade 4/Barbarian 2 (Precocious Apprentice)
Hexblade 5/Barbarian 2 (Improved Bull Rush)
Divine Crusader 1/Hexblade 5/Barbarian 2
Divine Crusader 2/Hexblade 5/Barbarian 2 (Three Mountains)
Geomancer 1/Divine Crusader 2/Hexblade 5/Barbarian 2

Str 15
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 13
Wis 6
Cha 18



If for some reason Frank doesn't like the Precocious Apprentice thing, I'll offer up an even-more-off-the-cuff
Human Wizard 1/Swashbucker 3/Barbarian 4/Divine Crusader 2

Str: 15
Dex: 13
Con: 13
Int: 18
Wis: 6
Cha: 12

And I'll go the 'angry drunken son of a recently-sacrificed nobleman' route.

I'm sure there's some problems with these ideas, but I haven't really had the time to investigate fully. :(
dbb
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by dbb »

It's a shame Soldier of Light only gets the awful 4-level caster progression, otherwise it would be a perfect fit -- +5 BAB and 4 ranks in knowledge/religion gets you in the door, and 3 levels gets you Turn Undead, 2nd-level divine spells, Divine Grace, and full BAB.

--d.
Username17
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Username17 »

Personally, I find the precocious apprentice feat to be retarded. It's very powerful at 1st level, but very quickly you'll stop noticing that you ever had it. That spell doesn't scale, the only purpose for it would be to qualify for PrCs early, and if PrCs had balanced prereqs that would probably be bad. Of course, PrC prereqs are usually just a bunch of stupid in a pile, and the author of the feat says that it doesn't qualify you for anything, making everyone scratch their head and ask just what the hell it is supposed to do.

As to why you aren't supposed to take such a feat after 1st level... it's because many authors think that your class means a whole lot more than it does. Also the authors can't get their head out of their ass as to how important 1st level is supposed to be. Sometimes it's considered just another level, and sometimes your first level is supposed to by itself represent the first 30 years of your Elf's life.

Now, would I let you do this hairbrained scheme? Sure. It's all based around hexblade for some reason, so it sounds like you need all the help that you can get just to not suck. The Divine Crusader was made into a generic divine class for 3.5 so poorly that it brings tears to the eyes (you get half-assed celestial resistances regardless of your alignment), and the Hex Blade is just bad.

But OK. What you are asking for is shoes after choosing to walk the path that Andy Collins covered with his broken beer bottles. It seems senselessly cruel to deny you that.

-Username17
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Kirin_Corrigan »

Essence wrote:That's totally retarded. What if your character's apprenticeship happens after 1st level? You suddenly can't be precocious anymore?


Exactly. It means just that.

It makes sense as 1st level only feat since it matters only when you're an extremely low level character.

As far as the game goes, the DM can tweak/change any rule so it's not a problem if the feat doesn't work exactly the way you like... No need to get all up in arms.

Ok, so you want PA to qualify for Geomancer. That's puzzling to say the least since the PrC didn't change at all from its MotW incarnation: it was ugly then, it's ugly now.

OTOH, I'm positive you'll slap Geo levels on top of DC levels to improve your divine spellcasting (because it's the only meaningful thing to do). Well, in that case your Hex CL will be grounded to "2" forevermore, and since you need to make a Hex CL check of 8 to cast that PA extra spell, you end up with a 25% failure chance right out of the box. No one in his right mind should accept the chance to fail 1 casting out of 4 for his 1/day 2nd level spell at level 10+.

But don't let that stop you. Just get all uppity again and assume/impose that the feat will work the way you like... That's the right thing to do. :bored:

Wouldn't it be better to ask the DM if he could change the Geomancer prereqs, instead? Hell, that's one ugly PrC. Maybe Frank can let you qualify with Arcane and Divine CL 2 or something. That way you wouldn't waste a precious feat slot on something completely useless for you build...
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Murtak
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Murtak »


Essence wrote:Geomancer 1/Divine Crusader 2/Hexblade 5/Barbarian 2

I'm sure there's some problems with these ideas, but I haven't really had the time to investigate fully. :(

Well, for one thing that build has three rather mediocre classes in it ...
I mean Hexblade by itself is not all that great, I never considered very limited 9th level spells from a class that grants cleric BAB to be all that hot, and the Geomancer is pretty crappy even when applied to a full spellcasting class - which you aren't going to be doing.

I am not quite sure what abilities you would like your character to have, but I am sure there is some easier way to gain them. Looking over your class levels you gain cha to saves, decent fortitude and will saves, crappy skills, rage, not-quite-full BAB and some minor spellcasting.

If "no alignments" extends to "disregard exaltedness" you could go Barbarian 2 / fighter 2 / ranger 2 / Champion of Gwynharwyf 4 and end up with better HPs, better saves, better skills, more rage, more BAB and spellcasting that is a tiny bit worse - in exchange for which you will have a couple of feats.

Or you could go Cleric 6 / Prestige Paladin 3 and then continue in some class that grants full spellcasting - or, if you want to preserve your BAB, in a class like the Hospitaler or Fist of Raziel. You are again down a tiny bit of BAB, you have cha to saves and you do not have rage. You do however have full turning and nearly full clerical spellcasting.

If you would like your character to have other abilities I am sure I or someone else can find a way to incorporate them. As is your character seems rather weak compared to the rest of the party.
Murtak
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by User3 »

Actually, Geomancer would allow you to use your Divine Crusader caster level to cast your 2nd level Hexblade spell starting at level 3 (character level 12). But that still leaves open the question of why either Geomancer or Hexblade are in this build at all. Both of them together allow you to apply your massively superior Divine Crusader casting rules to your Hexblade spellslots.

But Hexblade spellslots are craptastic. They are as numerous as Ranger spellslots, and are filled with worse spells. Entangle is pretty sweet at any level, and the Hexblade Curses just aren't.

So I have to ask... why?

-Username17
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Murtak
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Murtak »


Essence wrote:If I end up a player, for example, I'm pondering a Bbn5/Rngr2/Divine Crusader3, a warrior recently turned faithful to Manik, the god of human sacrifice and purification through pain.

I have no clue if you actually want to cast spells. If not, Barbarian 2 / Hexblade 3 / Warrior of Darkness 5 seems to fit your character concept nicely. You might want to ask Frank to modify the level 5 and 8 abilities though.
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Kirin_Corrigan »

Frank wrote:Actually, Geomancer would allow you to use your Divine Crusader caster level to cast your 2nd level Hexblade spell starting at level 3 (character level 12).


You can surely rule it that way if you want, but by the book Spell Versatility lists any and all options for "mix & matching" arcane/divine parameters, and Caster Level is not on the list.
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Essence
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Essence »


Really, what I want is this:

  • A decent BAB, preferably no worse than a Rogue of my character level
  • The ability to cast minor divine spells, which will preferably ramp up as quickly as possible (as my character becomes more 'in' with Manik). The arcane spells from Hexblade are just there so I can get...
  • The whole "beast-man" flavor such as is provided by Geomancer or a few other select PrCs. Singh Rager would be good, but I'd like more "you actually have the physical attributes of a bunch of animals" kind of stuff.


Really, it's based around Hexblade because Hexblade is the only way I can find to get into Divine Crusader ASAP while still having a 2nd level Arcane slot available to wedge into Geomancer. Geomancer really is there for the drift. The spell versatility thing won't ever catch up with my spell levels (since I'm getting a new spell level at every Geomancer level), and the Ley Line thing, while it's more kewl flavor, isn't that fun. I just like the idea of being a sprint-and-pouncing, antler-headed, chameleon-skinned, elephant-footed, club-wielding psychopath dedicated to creating enough suffering to sustain Manik while He helps decide the fate of the world.
dbb
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by dbb »

Do you need to actually get abilities from the "having animal attributes" flavor? Or, maybe more precisely, do you need to get abilities that you cannot get as a regular character and then just handwave as being due to your animal attributes?

For instance, if someone wanted to be an antler-headed fighter who occasionally stabbed people with his antlers instead of hitting them with his sword, I would completely allow him to just take Improved Unarmed Strike and let the flavor text be "I grew a set of horns." Having the skin of a chameleon can just be the ability to have a large Hide check. And so on -- unless you want some specific abilities that aren't available to normal PCs and are available to Geomancers, you don't need Geomancer to do this.

Divine Crusader casting ramps up very quickly, but unfortunately it isn't otherwise all that great. You could just be a cleric, and then you'd have regular cleric spellcasting ability and the BAB of a rogue. Or you could do something wild with one of the "divine agent" prestige classes, because you don't want to sink 20 levels into Paladin when you could get almost the same spellcasting from 10 levels of Holy Liberator or Blackguard or Soldier of Light or whatever. If you don't want to play a Cleric, that's pretty much what I'd actually advise.

--d.
Neeek
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Neeek »

If all you want is the drift abilities, making a PrC and handwaving the pre-reqs should be really easy. Something like full BAB/(+2/+0/+2) Saves/d12 hp/Drift as Geomancer of same level(possibly double the number of drift abilities)/ IUS(or some natural weapon thing or Improved Natural Attack) at first level. Entry at level 5 with Barb/Fighter/Ranger levels for the first five or something.

I don't think anyone here is going to claim that is overpowered, and it gets you what you want both faster, and with a lot less wasted junk than the "real" build.

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Essence
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Essence »

Really, ideally, I'd like to be able to take Divine Crusader and just replace all of it's class features with the Geomancer's Drift abiliites. That would take me back to the Barbarian 5/Ranger 2/Divine Crusader 3 build, but with exactly the flavor and abilities I want.
Kirin_Corrigan
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Re: It Ends In Darkness - Character Concepts

Post by Kirin_Corrigan »

A that point he's better off with Druid 6 / Master of Many Forms 4, and then go straight to MoMF 10. It would make for a fun character, actually.
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