NPC CR

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NPC CR

Post by Username17 »

srd wrote:Duergar with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their level. Duergar with levels in PC classes have a CR equal to their character level +1


Goblins with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -2.


If you add a class level that doesn't directly play to a creature's strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its non-associated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster's CR by 1.
Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.


What this means is that a Human Commoner 12 is in fact CR 11. Interestingly, it means that an Ettin Warrior 10 is also somehow CR 11. Further, an Ogre Adept 4/Warrior 4/Aristocrat 4/Expert 4 is CR 11.

The stacking rules for NPC levels and CR are dumbtastic.

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »


SRD wrote:If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.
Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.



Check the bolds again. NPC classes are always unassociated, thus always account as half CR.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Username17 »

Check the second bold and then check what actually happens to 1 hit die creatures (Drow, Duerar, Goblins, etc.) It can be interpretted from that single piece of text you quoted to mean either that the levels are all non-associated forever, or that the levels are non-associated until the levels equal the base hit dice.

However, the second interpretation is clearly what they mean, since that's what they actually do when they apply NPC classes to Duergar and Drow and what not in the Monster Manual. When there's two valid interpretations, you should look to the examples provided. The examples provided are that a Drow Commoner 12 is CR 12. Therefore a Human Commoner 12 is CR 11.

Dumb, but true.

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »

Your examples seem like exceptions to the general rule of NPC levels being always non-associated, and not examples at all.

Kobolds, orcs, elves, gnomes, dwarves, planetouched, and all the other 1 HD creatures and humanoids that trade out their base HD do not have any additional CR rules in their descriptions, and the general rule always applies unless a rule in a specific description contradicts it. Drow and Deep Gnomes and deep dwarves are exceptions, as it those rules pallied to all elves, dwarves, or gnomes it would say so in the overall description that talks about the shared traits of the subtype.

Drow and Deep Gnomes and deep dwarves all have magical abilties based on character level, so that explains why they have some wacky and different CR rules(not a good estimate of CR, but thats a different issue). If I cared enough to keep searching, I could probably find a few more races with magical abilties based on level that have wacky CR rules.

Your argument is like saying "All feats require the prereqs!!! It says so in the feat rules!" when someone tries to point out the rules for Ranger Bonus feats. That's how all DnD rules are handled. General rule wins, unless a specific rule in a description overrides.

But Goblins flat boggle the mind as to why they have their own unique CR rules different from any other race. Looks like legacy crap from 3.0 to me.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Username17 »

But Goblins flat boggle the mind as to why they have their own unique CR rules different from any other race. Looks like legacy crap from 3.0 to me.


Goblins are a CR -1 creature, which means that a 15th level Goblin Druid is for some reason CR 14. When applied to the standard NPC CR rules, this means that they end up being CR = Level -2 when an NPC class.

This is how it is supposed to be read. Really. Your claim that the rule that NPC classes are unassociated overrides the rule that taking more unassociated levels than your base hit dice is no more valid than the claim that the rule that taking unassociated levels in excess of your base hit dice are associate overrides the rule that an NPC class is unassociated. Either are a totally plausible reading of those two rules right next to each other.

But one reading allows you to extrapolate all the wanky classed monsters and the other doesn't. Which means, of course, that one reading is right and the other reading is wrong. How does it feel to be wrong?

Now as a side note, this system is about as useful for predicting power as consulting crotch fungus for omens. An Ogre withg 10 levels of Warrior comes out CR 11 (3 + 1/2 of 4 + 6), and an Ettin with 10 levels of Warrior comes out... CR 11 (6 + 1/2 of 10). Guess which one is better in absolutely every meaningful way?

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »

I find it very hard to misinterpret the general rule “NPC class levels are always unassociated.” If the levels were “always unassociated,” then it’d never be applied as associated(at the 1 to 1 rate when your unassociated levels exceeded you HD, or when the class has abilities defined as associated).

Thus, an Ogre with 10 warrior levels CR 7(base CR 2 plus 5), and an Ettin CR 11(base CR 6 + 5). The system works.

Your three “examples” (not including the one I found) are exceptions to the rule that allow certain monsters to be calculated differently; my 10+ examples trump.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Username17 »

I find it very hard to misinterpret the general rule “NPC class levels are always unassociated.”


Try the equally important rule "until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1."

One is specific to taking NPC classes, one is specific to taking more levels of a class than you have racial hit dice.

So which one is "more specific" when you are taking more levels on an NPC class than you have racial hit dice? You are inside both specific subsets, and a logical argument can be made either way.

But one of those ways is the way the Monster Manual actually uses to generate the CR of monsters whose NPC levels exceed their racial hit dice, and the other is not.

my 10+ examples trump


Really now... What examples would those be? The ones where it doesn't actually say anything at all and leaves it to the original text which can be interpretted validly either way?

Face it, you've got nothing. The only thing you have is that you want it to work one way and some of the creatures don't actually mention how they work. But all of the creatures which do have direct modifications (Goblins, Kobolds, Duergar, Drow, Svirfneblin, etc.) all have descriptions which are consistent with each other, but inconsistent with the way you want it to work.

So it doesn't work the way you want it to. This discussion is over.

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Josh_Kablack »

I don't think we've discussed the miraculously abusable Goblin exception enough though.

As written (although probably not as intended):

Goblin paladin 12 - CR 12
Goblin paladin 12/Warrior2 -Also CR 12
Goblin fighter 1 Vampire - CR 3
Goblin warrior 3 Vampire - CR 1

gotta love it
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Username17 »

You need at least 5 levels of something to be a Vampire. Then the modifier for Vampire kicks in at the end because it is an acquired template.

So a Goblin Warrior 5 Vampire is CR 5.

But good try. The fact that Goblins and Kobolds have a minus rating when an NPC class and a zero rating when a PC class is absolutely mysterious. It's like Andy Collins wasn't even talking to himself.

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »

Fighter 1s and Warrior 3s can't gain the vampire template in the RAW, although I do appreciate your point.

The stupid web site has the ridiculously broken Savage progressions, and your example could just use the Fiendish template or some other damn thing.

The goblin/kobold stuff seems more like editorial fob-up, and less like 3.5 compliant rules. We all know that WOTC is not famous for hiring qualified editors.

I've made my case for the magic using undergrounders(although as a method for gauging CR, it sucks). It also looks like editorial fob-up, although a little more understandable.

And I don't see any other way to interprete the sssociated/nonassociated issue. When a later statement qualifies a previous statement made in the same section, the qualifying statement prevails, just as general rules apply when specific rules don't contradict. The text could be better written for clarity, but that's another issue.

Gobbos made be clusterfobbed in the RAW, but orcs, elves, dwarves, and gnomes are just fine. Just those underground flavored versions are fobbed.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Username17 »

Look, the rule that when you have more levels of an unassociated level it turns into associated levels changes the god damned type of level it is. The rule that NPC classes are always unassociated doesn't change anything.

So by a strict reading of the rules, an Ogre with 6 levels of Warrior gains up to four levels of Warrior at 1 CR for every 2 levels. At that point, any further levels are now associated because there is a rule that it changes to associated and no rule that it doesn't change, nor is there any rule that it would change back.

That's the literal interpretation, and is consistent with the CRs of creatures in the book. Your rantings are just that - rantings.

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Essence »

There is no literal interpretation that is absolutely the case, Frank.

A) Before 100pm, the set of letters [x, y, z, p, q, r] is lowercase, after which it is uppercase (until dawn).

B) p is always lowercase.


These two rules don't make any kind of sense, and no literal reading can ever make sense of them. They are directly self-contradictory.


Now, my logic teacher would tell you that a rule that applies to a single entity 'p' has more weight regarding that entity than does a rule that applies to a set 'X' that 'p' is a part of. "I went to the party and all of my friends were there...but Frank wasn't there." You hear stuff like that all the time, and the entity-specific outweighs the group-specific.

Basically, there's arguments both ways, but you can't tell me that a "literal" reading is capable of having any meaning or application given the wording of the rules.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »

Frank's interpretation of the rules is right on. I think you probably just missed some of the text.

Anyway, CR rules are crazy and subjective: There aren't any rules for raising the CR with a pre-buffed party, and a Wizard 16 fully buffed is the same CR as a Wizard 16 with no spells memorized at all. Stacking templates in a certain ways can really make your PCs cry (Half-golem learnean hydra, etc).

The designers put a lot more work into making sure PCs aren't brokenly powerful (this is why LAs are so much higher than CRs). It might mean thay they're lazy, but really, its just a game and it would suck a lot more if the designers spent all their time trying to minutely balance thing instead of coming up with ideas.
That is was all 3.5 publications yet aside from Draconomicon and Dragon & Dungeon magazines, and the Expanded Psionics handbook (the exception to the rule) suck.

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Lago_AM3P »

It might mean thay they're lazy, but really, its just a game and it would suck a lot more if the designers spent all their time trying to minutely balance thing instead of coming up with ideas.


This quote and the thinking behind it seriously ticks me off.

I've really been wanting to play a holy-fist fighter for a really long time. I've been trying to play a cleric who expertly fights with fists for damn near 3 years; some of my first posts on the Nifty Message Boards is in regards to this.

That said also, I play with a lot of DMs who think that just because WotC gets their oily hands around a character archetype with their latest quota-filling PrC they (and by extension, me) can never ever improve upon it or heaven forbid write a new one. Imagine my glee when I found out that my primary DM was going to run the complete piece of crap Sacred Fist in his game and completely jettison my own work JUST BECAUSE WOTC'S SACRED FIST WAS PUBLISHED IN A DAMN BOOK.

I'm dead serious. The vast majority of people out there will only use something because it's PUBLISHED. This piece of shit policy where vomiting out new ideas all the time are more important than making good mechanics screws people over who are counting on WotC to release manna from heaven to make their character concept work.

So a pox on all of the staff who think that meeting their quota for archetypes is more important than making these archetypes actually fun for people who want to play them. You are all dead wrong and this is one of the few times I seriously, seriously resent the people who make this game.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1086860636[/unixtime]]
This quote and the thinking behind it seriously ticks me off.


Don't get me wrong: I totally agree in the PC department. Perhaps I didn't explain myself wrong enough.

My biggest problem with the way WotC does things is how they make a PrC, feat, or whatever, and then two book later revise it... With NO errata, NO update of the original material, NO product support. It dosen't matter if the original was balanced or not. Re-releasing it (without updating previous material too) just to fill up a new tome is insipid.

This is my problem with the constant re-balancing efforts: Get it right the first time or release errata.

I understand the desire to use only "official" stuff, especially in the Min-Max/Powergame-y croud (although I personally tend to run heavily house-ruled campaigns).

However, getting to my original point, I don't see a huge need to balance the NPC stuff. I can tell about how challanging an encounter was for the PCs, and give treasure accordingly. CR is just a guideline.
I don't care if all dragons are about 2 CRs ahead of everyone else. I can give my PCs more experience due to the greater difficulty of the battle, or make sure that the dragon's hoard is primarily stuff that the Dragon can't use (but PCs can).

My point is that CRs are just to variable to put too mch effort into balancing them. D&D isn't a computer game.

But I'm apparently really long winded :blush:

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Falgund »

I read it like this :

A) After the letter a, the set of letters [x, y, z, p, q, r] is lowercase, else they are uppercase. (If you add a class level that doesn't directly play to a creature's strength the class level is considered nonassociated)

B) p is always lowercase. (Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.)

C) After 100pm and until dawn, all letters are uppercase. (until one of its non-associated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated.)


With C) having more weigth than B), which itself have more weight than A).
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Essence »

Except that that's not what is written. Changing the rules to match your interpretation isn't a valuable thing to do; we are forced to work within, and attempt to make sense of, the RAW.

The RAW has two rules, neither of which is explicitly given more weight than the other, and both of which are mutually contradictory.

The only question is how you decide to read them. It's obvious by looking at the books that Frank's interpretation is the one the writers intended -- it's just not the literal meaning of the rules as Frank tried to claim.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Essence at [unixtime wrote:1086889392[/unixtime]]Frank's interpretation is the one the writers intended -- it's just not the literal meaning of the rules as Frank tried to claim.


:freakedout:

OMG!!!

Frank's been replaced with an imposter.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by rapanui »

"So a pox on all of the staff who think that meeting their quota for archetypes is more important than making these archetypes actually fun for people who want to play them. You are all dead wrong and this is one of the few times I seriously, seriously resent the people who make this game."

I completely and totally sympathize with this. However, worse than the people that write the fecal books, is the people who take them as Holy Gospel of Truth. The WotC publishes is so unbalanced sometimes, you have to wonder if ANYONE read over it more than once.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Username17 »

Frank's interpretation is the one the writers intended -- it's just not the literal meaning of the rules as Frank tried to claim.


It's a literal interpretation. You can make all those statements true simultaneously in the way I described.

NPC classes are always non-associated.
Further levels are considered associated after you match your racial hit dice.

So it's a non-associated level that is considered associated. That's what it literally says. The one changes what it is, the other changes how it is considered for the purposes of raising CR. So it can go ahead and be a non-associated level, it still raises CR by 1 because it is still considered associated for that purpose.

I don't write 'em, I just read 'em.

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »


Frank wrote:NPC classes are always non-associated.
Further levels are considered associated after you match your racial hit dice.


If it was written like that, I would agree.

Its not.

It's written like this:
SRD wrote:
Associated Class Levels
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.
Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.
Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.
A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.
Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated


If last line were written in the Associated section, you might have an argument. Its not. Its written in the only section where it talks about Non. Ass. classes turning into Ass. classes. A paragraph is a simple order of operations like an logical argument. Each line changes the argument, and a later line clarifies general information in a former line, and takes precedence if it actually conflicts

If there were monsters that cast spells as Adepts and the the text were in the Associated section, it might be an actual conflict, except for fact that the order of operations which makes that the last line take precedence.

If a few monsters have their own CR text that takes precedence in that case, then it is a simple general to specific order of operations, in the same way that Fly spell supercedes the rule that humans only have a 30' land movement.

There is not place in the whole game where this is not true.

Reading the text and atttempting to say that the somehow the word "always" has changed its meaning is totally bogus. Shame on you.

-------------------

I don't even have to add that by misinterpreting the rules, you are somehow believing that designer intent is for a 12th level commoner with 12th level NPC Equipment be a CR 11 guy, and an Ogre/War 10 and an Ettin/War 10 the same CR.

Designer intent is seldom "let's make something that doesn't work at all!"

There are enough typos and legacy 3.0 crap in 3.5 to look at all your monster examples and see editor failure.
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »

I'm totally typing that in Word next time. Doh!
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by Username17 »

Designer intent is seldom "let's make something that doesn't work at all!"


Don't even try that line of bullshit. This is Andy Collins we are talking about.

According to him, the "all expenses paid free trip to the negative energy plane, no save" is design intent.

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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Don't forget the miniscule xp cost, though - that makes it balanced. Right?
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Re: Prodigal Skill Use

Post by User3 »

Lago_AM3P wrote:I've really been wanting to play a holy-fist fighter for a really long time. I've been trying to play a cleric who expertly fights with fists for damn near 3 years;

Is OA's Shaman any good?
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