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New Frank & K Tome pdf
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Meikle641
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I meant as a substitute for Word, is all.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Kantian Paladin's cool, I like the focus on auras. I never used a 3e paladin though, but I dig the auras. Is there an Arcane equivalent of the Kantian Paladin? Ranger though... I don't see any reason why that class shouldn't just be absorbed into Fighter if you just want to bow and sword, or druid if you want an animal pal.

I also enjoy the format of the Tome Mage with spheres of magic, easy to grasp and thematic.

The designs that have been the most inspiration for my own heartbreaking are...

-Fighter
-Monk
-Thief Acrobat
-Mage (Spheres)

I could see Fighter's "You get a shitload of combat feats" and Monk's stances being melded together for a "pick two from the list of cool shit you do" fighting man.


Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Same here. The Tome Fighter sorta allows you to play the Stealthy Woodland Bow-Using Warrior, and lets you play a dual-wielding fencer, and a heavily-armored door opener...As well as the weird weapon specialist and so on.

I softened up on the class when I realized that.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Tome Fighter is sadly not a class suited to newbie type players that can't read the book and remember all the right feats to invoke at the right times.

So I'd keep the Ranger in for all the reasons you'd keep the Barbarian and Monk in. A "simple mode" class.

However, I'd also say that that's what's going on in all the class entries. I think that in general the game should be more candid about things like that.
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codeGlaze
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Going off the rails a bit...
If you were going to treat the fighter as a chassis class, why not treat monks, rangers, barbarians, cavaliers... what-have-you as kits or pre-built fighters? New mechanics are simply new possibilities for any fighter to pick from.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Treating melee guys as simple mode hurts the game badly. Point blank combat is too narrow of a concept to survive without DM softballs, cc/movement powers of your own--which undercuts the simple aspect, since ideally you still want to be able to divide and conquer before charging in--or someone else setting up the pain train for you via actual powers that do more than roll damage dice. Well, either that or be a tome barbarian and just math people to death in the most boring way imaginable, but in my experience the whole makes every damn saving throw thing renders the class a hard sell. I'll even go so far as to say that making a proper face roll class is one area where I think ppl could steal from WoW without ruining everything forever--properly tweaked, a bow ranger or mystic archer type could contribute to fights in a risk averse manner without demanding the right to do so much damage that they can mulch a giant each full attack.
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RadiantPhoenix
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Meikle641 wrote:
Why not use Open Office?

It still has the problem of doing things I don't entirely understand without me noticing, and which I can only figure out how to reverse with "undo" or by reverting to an older version.

Because the source for a LaTeX file is legible plaintext, it doesn't have that problem.

Also, the many things Lokathor mentioned.
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Lokathor
Duke


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Whipstitch wrote:
Treating melee guys as simple mode hurts the game badly.


Well not all melee guys should be simple mode, and not all simple modes should be melee guys, clearly.

What I'm saying though is that there's already simple-mode and complex-mode melee guys and caster guys. What needs to happen is to have them be more clearly labeled as to what is what. To a beginning player it's not nearly so obvious that the Sorcerer is an "experts only" class while the Cleric is the "anyone can do this" class. These are the kinds of things that should have an OOC paragraph or two about them.
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Bihlbo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
What needs to happen is to have them be more clearly labeled as to what is what. To a beginning player it's not nearly so obvious that the Sorcerer is an "experts only" class while the Cleric is the "anyone can do this" class. These are the kinds of things that should have an OOC paragraph or two about them.

You ready to get to writing? Or are you asking someone else to do that for you?


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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

codeGlaze wrote:
Going off the rails a bit...
If you were going to treat the fighter as a chassis class, why not treat monks, rangers, barbarians, cavaliers... what-have-you as kits or pre-built fighters? New mechanics are simply new possibilities for any fighter to pick from.


Here's a quick shot at it. I mashed together samurai, fighter, knight into the monk style format:



Fighter

Hit Die: d10
Base Attack Bonus: Full
Good Saving Throws: Any 2 of your choice
Skill Points: 6+Int
Class Skills: A lot
Alignment:
Proficiencies: Simple and Martial Weapons, All armor, all shields

Bonus Feat: The Fighter begins with one bonus Combat feat

Lvl1
Weapons Training (Ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and using a new weapon is easy and fun. By practicing with a weapon he is not proficient with for a day, a Fighter may permanently gain proficiency with that weapon by succeeding at an Intelligence check DC 10 (you may not take 10 on this check).

lvl1
Combat Focus (Ex): A fighter is at his best when the chips are down and everything is going to Baator in a handbasket. When the world is on fire, a fighter keeps his head better than anyone. If the fighter is in a situation that is stressful and/or dangerous enough that he would normally be unable to "take 10" on skill checks, he may spend a swift action to gain Combat Focus. A Fighter may end his Combat Focus at any time to reroll any die roll he makes, and if not used it ends on its own after a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus.

Fighting Style (Ex): At level 1 the fighter gains two Fighting styles, and at levels 3, 5, and 7, the Fighter learns an additional Fighting Style. Each Fighting style requires a Swift Action to activate, lasts one round, and is usable at will. Each Fighting Style provides two bonuses from the Fighting Style Abilities:

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Combat Superiority (Ex): Once per day, a Fighter of sixth level or higher may activate a Fighting Style and extend its duration to 1 round/level rather than 1 round. Activating this Fighting Style is still a Swift Action. Other Fighting Styles may be activated during this period, though their duration is normally going to be only 1 round.


Improved Delay (Ex): A Fighter of 7th level may delay his action in one round without compromising his Initiative in the next round. In addition, a Fighter may interrupt another action with his delayed action like it was a readied action (though he does not have to announce his intentions before hand).


Array of Stunts (Ex): A 13th level Fighter may take one extra Immediate Action between his turns without sacrificing a Swift action during his next turn.

Master Fighting Style (Su): At levels 9, 11, and 13, the Fighter learns a Master Fighting Style. Each Master Fighting style requires a Swift Action to activate, lasts one round, and is usable at will. When a Fighter gains a new Master Fighting Style, he may replace one of his Fighting Styles with a different Fighting Style.
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Greater Combat Focus (Ex): At 15th level, a Fighter may voluntarily expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to suppress any status effect or ongoing spell effect on himself for his Base Attack Bonus in rounds.

Grand Master Fighting Style (Su): At levels 15, 17, and 19, the Monk learns a Grand Master Fighting Style. Each Grand Master Fighting style requires a Swift Action to activate, lasts one round, and is usable at will. Each Grand Master Fighting Style must have a name (see Naming Your Fighting Style), and provides two bonuses from the Grand Master Fighting Style Abilities. When a Monk gains a new Grand Master Fighting Style, he may replace one of his Fighting Styles or Master Fighting Style with a different Style of the same type.
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Combat Supremacy: Once per day, a Fighter of 18th level or higher may activate a Fighting Style, Master Fighting Style, or Grand Master Fighting Style and extend its duration to 1 round/level rather than 1 round. Activating this style is still a Swift Action. Other styles may be activated during this period, though their duration is normally going to be only 1 round.

Intense Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may take an extra Swift Action each round (in addition to the extra Immediate Action he can take from Array of Stunts).

Supreme Combat Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to take 20 on any die roll. He must elect to use Supreme Combat Focus before rolling the die.


----------

The following would become combat feats:
-Monk's wis-to-AC and unarmed strikes
-Ancestral weapons
-Barbarian rage, maybe?


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Lokathor
Duke


Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bihlbo wrote:
Lokathor wrote:
What needs to happen is to have them be more clearly labeled as to what is what. To a beginning player it's not nearly so obvious that the Sorcerer is an "experts only" class while the Cleric is the "anyone can do this" class. These are the kinds of things that should have an OOC paragraph or two about them.

You ready to get to writing? Or are you asking someone else to do that for you?


I'm saying this should be yet another requirement that classes must meet to be accepted into the Big Book Of Tome Stuff. The same way that they have to have a skill list and a name and stuff.

But also yes, I do perform minor additions and edits to things that I typeset, if necessary. The trick is getting people to agree that such changes will be merged back into the larger work.
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codeGlaze
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I could see a quick "tips/how to play" and/or "this class is this complicated" blurb working out pretty well.
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Whipstitch
Prince


Joined: 29 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:

Well not all melee guys should be simple mode, and not all simple modes should be melee guys, clearly.


I can get behind that goal in theory, but in practice I'm rather skeptical that melee characters won't require at least a moderate level of system mastery to be played well virtually by default, like with say, rogues, for example.

I'm willing to admit that I'm biased on this though--I tend to prefer classes that have a bit more going on other the hood than the average "I waste it with my crossbow" goon, so I get sort of bummed out when a concept I like virtually runs itself in play. You really can't please everyone.
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Sigil
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think it would be acceptable, for a Tome variant of D&D, to expect all players to have either a moderate level of system proficiency or to be at least moderately dedicated to gaining said mastery. Let's face it, the Tome is only ever likely to be played by people who are already into this sort of thing, or by people introduced to it directly. That is the target audience.

The Tome PDF should enable a DM who is already familiar with the Tomes to introduce a group to it with a comprehensive document that serves as an easily readable comprehensive rules set, ideally.

A class that is completely beginner friendly would likely be the exception, a good one, and that's what you'd want to note for players.

Edit: As an aside, who all has actually said they'd like to start working on another revision? So far I have codeGlaze, Lokathor, and myself.

Another Edit: Anyone else feel the Tome grapple rules feel slightly... incomplete? I like the simplicity of the options present, but it feels like "hold down" is somewhat vague as to what actually happens, and doesn't really cover all aspects of a traditional wrasslin' match. You go straight to pin your opponent, he can do nothing. Should there be another thread for discussing the editing/changing/inclusion of specific Tome rules/classes/things?


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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sigil wrote:
Edit: As an aside, who all has actually said they'd like to start working on another revision? So far I have codeGlaze, Lokathor, and myself.


Do we have a challenger for the spoilered part of my sig?
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Sigil
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ha, well, it's definitely relevant, but not totally ridiculous. The PDF is already the work of Denners, and I can attest that both I and Aktariel worked on it together, at the same time, and actually helped each other with shit. The real problem is we can expect any work to be very, very, slow.
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zeruslord
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd be willing to put some time in. I've used LaTeX quite a bit for homework and stuff, but not for anything on this scale.

Is there currently an awesometome repo set up anywhere? I don't think we want to try to have four+ people trying to collaborate by emailing stuff back and forth, and I don't see any reason this can't just be open source on Github or something.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sigil wrote:
I think it would be acceptable, for a Tome variant of D&D, to expect all players to have either a moderate level of system proficiency or to be at least moderately dedicated to gaining said mastery. Let's face it, the Tome is only ever likely to be played by people who are already into this sort of thing, or by people introduced to it directly. That is the target audience.


Wrong sir. I would go so far as to say twice wrong even.

These days I play roleplaying games almost exclusively with individuals that have minimal to none Tabletop RPG experience. They have no system mastery in any d20 game, and are just learning each time I get a new player regardless of what system I use (After Sundown, Earthdawn 3e, SR4, DnD3.5+Tome, Basic Fantasy RPG, ADnD2e).

If I'm going to go to the trouble of getting a player able to play an RPG I'm at least going to teach them the best form of an RPG available to me. A game that I'd be interested in running for them. A completed Tome result needs to be perfectly capable of bringing a player with no understanding of the game into the fold. This could be a special chapter at the start with the rest of the book as a references style, it could be introduction sections at the beginning of each chapter, it could even be something else that you think of, but it has to be there. There's no actual page-count limits, we've got no excuse.

System Mastery should be a nice thing to have, but it should not be required to simply operate the game. The very reason that both Polymorph and Grapple got stabbed and replaced with different rules compared to the SRD is because they allowed for too much system mastery shenanigans at the expense of the average player.
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Bihlbo
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
Sigil wrote:
I think it would be acceptable, for a Tome variant of D&D, to expect all players to have either a moderate level of system proficiency or to be at least moderately dedicated to gaining said mastery. Let's face it, the Tome is only ever likely to be played by people who are already into this sort of thing, or by people introduced to it directly. That is the target audience.


Wrong sir. I would go so far as to say twice wrong even.


Wrong, sir. Tomes, as written, is exactly as Sigil states. You told him he was wrong then proceeded to point out all the additional stuff that needs to be written in order to prove him wrong. Razz

Let me try to be constructive, calling people "wrong" seems needlessly inflammatory. Lokathor, I like the design ideas you have that will change Tome from what it is to something that could be used as a whole contained OGL game, like an alternative to Pathfinder, Conan rpg, or some of the other popular ones. That's a great idea, and I'd be on board to help if I can.

The main thing I have against Tome is that in order to use it you have to finish it. Most of it consists of essays on how the game could be run and why, instead of how the game you're playing is going to be run. So you can drop the 3e PH on the table, a printout of Tome, and another printout of your houserules that tell players how you're going to run the game and which of the options in Tome you choose to use. But that's not ideal. Someone wiser than myself once told me: Your houserules need to consist of one resource (so include errata in your houserules), and should be as short as possible so players have reliable rules and only one place to check for changes. I rather like that as a design goal for Tome.

To that end I've started and stopped a couple of times at turning Tome into something far more usable. Much of it can just be cut out and put into a "Tome of Caverns" document for DMs. To make it easier to use, portions of the SRD should be included to create one whole section for every race option, all equipment magic and mundane, and all feat options - it's cumbersome to tell players "Here's the armor, go to the SRD for weapons and scrolls but not wonderous items..." etc.

Who's steering this boat and making a list of what rope needs pulled? Crowd sourcing works best when the people willing to work know what tasks have or have not been done.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bihlbo wrote:
Lokathor wrote:
Sigil wrote:
I think it would be acceptable, for a Tome variant of D&D, to expect all players to have either a moderate level of system proficiency or to be at least moderately dedicated to gaining said mastery. Let's face it, the Tome is only ever likely to be played by people who are already into this sort of thing, or by people introduced to it directly. That is the target audience.


Wrong sir. I would go so far as to say twice wrong even.


Wrong, sir. Tomes, as written, is exactly as Sigil states. You told him he was wrong then proceeded to point out all the additional stuff that needs to be written in order to prove him wrong.


But it's not acceptable to expect all players to be former DnD3.5 players and then stop there. That is what's wrong.

"the Tome is only ever likely to be played by people who are already into this sort of thing" is arguably wrong, but not very clearly so since "ever likely" is pretty vague. Example: My brother doesn't play 3.5, but he'll play Tome. He never played non-Tome, but as soon as he looked at Tome he essentially said "well that's total bullshit, why is this stuff new? Why didn't the game have this to start with? Who would ever want to play the game without killer barbarians and fire mages?"; that's an anecdote though and doesn't by itself alter the chances of others on the whole.

Quote:
calling people "wrong" seems needlessly inflammatory

Here at The Den that's about as mild a statement as you're gonna see most of the time when one person thinks another is inaccurate.

Quote:
Your houserules need to consist of one resource (so include errata in your houserules), and should be as short as possible so players have reliable rules and only one place to check for changes. I rather like that as a design goal for Tome.

Yeah that's why I began to make the SRD into a PDF in the first place. It was step 1 in the goal of "be able to make any houserules changes have a complete playable document for them". Going from that, you could make a "Complete E6" book or a "Complete Tomes" book or whatever.
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Sigil
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Let me clarify my position a little bit.

Lokathor wrote:
These days I play roleplaying games almost exclusively with individuals that have minimal to none Tabletop RPG experience.


This is pretty much one of two situations I meant. The two primary groups of people that are going to play the Tome, even with a comprehensive pdf are:
    1 - People who already play TTRPGs and somehow stumbled onto the Tomes.
    2 - New players being directly mentored by a DM running Tome


I find it hard to imagine that any single person to date has ever played the Tomes as their first TTRPG without being directly introduced to it, but I suppose it's possible. My point is that we shouldn't overly worry if the PDF doesn't cater directly to the my-first-rpg demographic.

Lokathor wrote:
A completed Tome result needs to be perfectly capable of bringing a player with no understanding of the game into the fold.


Agreed. A Complete Tome should enable someone who reads the book in toto to understand and play or run the game without needing to consult a separate resource. But the same thing applies to the core rulebook trifecta of PHB, DMG, and MM. Without being helped along by someone who already knows the game, it's hard. This will always be the case with d20. Anything we can do to make it easier is good, obviously.

Lokathor wrote:
System Mastery should be a nice thing to have, but it should not be required to simply operate the game.


The Tome as designed by players with system mastery of 3/3.5 D&D for players that had system mastery of 3/3.5 D&D to include the things that were known through said system master into the system by default. What I meant when I said "A class that is completely beginner friendly would likely be the exception, a good one, and that's what you'd want to note for players" is that because the greatest number of players playing Tome are either experienced already or are being mentored, you should not be overly concerned about including lots of classes and options that area "easy" to play like the barbarian. I disagree that we need to make sure that there is a "simple" class of each variety (melee, spellcaster, sneak fuck) for brand new players. If you happen to have easy to play classes that's fine, and you could just make a note in the introductory paragraph to the chapter that "new players may have an easier time playing classes X, Y, and Z".

Lokathor wrote:
Yeah that's why I began to make the SRD into a PDF in the first place. It was step 1 in the goal of "be able to make any houserules changes have a complete playable document for them". Going from that, you could make a "Complete E6" book or a "Complete Tomes" book or whatever.


This is the same reason I took the time to make a version of the SRD combat chapter that included the Tome rules in place of the OGL ones. It's also the reason I formatted plenty of things in latex that never got into the final PDF, like a Races chapter that included both the Tome exotic races and the OGL races. And the reason why I designed a weapon system that adhered to the Tome advice about weapon sizes.

I think we agree on more things than you think we do, and that those things that we disagree on are matters of opinion, and for the most part not of design. None of the relatively minor things we disagree on would preclude sharing work and working on the same document.

Bhilbo wrote:
Let me try to be constructive, calling people "wrong" seems needlessly inflammatory.


Stating you think someone is wrong isn't particularly inflammatory, it might even be the nicest thing any one has said to me on the Den.

Bhilbo wrote:
To that end I've started and stopped a couple of times at turning Tome into something far more usable.


What did you complete, anything not already in the PDF?
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Bihlbo
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sigil wrote:
Bhilbo wrote:
Let me try to be constructive, calling people "wrong" seems needlessly inflammatory.

Stating you think someone is wrong isn't particularly inflammatory, it might even be the nicest thing any one has said to me on the Den.

I was hoping my comment would be read as tongue-in-cheek, but that was probably a dumb idea since this is printed words.

Sigil wrote:
Bhilbo wrote:
To that end I've started and stopped a couple of times at turning Tome into something far more usable.

What did you complete, anything not already in the PDF?

I did one of the things I mentioned above. I cut out most of the stuff that doesn't benefit a player and compiled that into a separate document. I made a section for weapons. I made full write-ups for the OGL races and those in Tome, conforming to the original style instead of with the referential perspective in Tome (e.g. "this is a dark elf that you want to play"). But, I lost the work with a dead hard drive.
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OgreBattle
Prince


Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 4829

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Judging__Eagle wrote:
Btw, I'm printing this off in 4x4 pages per page, double-sided of the "large" version of the rules.

http://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/list

From there.

It's 83 pages, according to the print window, down from the 332 monstrosity, and 42 when printed double sided.

Perhaps the question is "how many pages does it take to make D&D a fun game for everyone who participates?".

I'm going to print off a few copies for some other people that I know, and who game, as well.

They already know that I play "non-standard" D&D, and that one of the heaviest RPers that they know loves the material. After all, surprise, surprise, rules that don't intentionally give an organic character the shaft is liked by someone who makes organic characters.


So is this the newest collected PDF?
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Sigil
Knight


Joined: 17 Jan 2013
Posts: 338

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For now, yeah, thats still the newest PDF. Me, Lokathor, CodeGlaze, and TarkisFlux are slowly building a new more complete one, but the progress is slow as were starting from the ground up, reformatting most of the content and adding in sections that were never formatted before.
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Krusk
Knight


Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 487

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sigil wrote:
For now, yeah, thats still the newest PDF. Me, Lokathor, CodeGlaze, and TarkisFlux are slowly building a new more complete one, but the progress is slow as were starting from the ground up, reformatting most of the content and adding in sections that were never formatted before.


Hows that coming?
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