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Tome of Necromancy (Full)
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Orion
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For all assassins:

You WILL take Two-weapon fighting at level 6 or 9, so as to take advantage of full death attack. If for some reason you choose not to take TWF, consider Subtle Cut at level 9. You will get more than use than most out of the standard-action attacks.

Since your schtick is making one giant attack every two rounds, you can eliminate most feats that buff damage or grant extra attacks. And combat maneuvers are mostly irrelevant too. Consider taking feats which help you land that awesome death attack, like Blind-Fighting and Ghost Hunter.

Finally, Tome D&D has defensive feats tat are actually worth having. You can get Evasion from Lightning Reflexes, SR from Mage Slayer, etc.

For Ranged Assassins:

Pretty much all the ranged feats are awesome. PBS has a level 11 ability that can help you get more death attacks out faster.

For Melee Assassins:

Weapon Finesse is obvious. Less obvious is Murderous Intent, which grants AoOs against DEX-denied enemies. This lets you pop out a death attack every round in melee. Expert Tactician makes Death Attack easier to qualify for and more likely to land, though it's more of a low-level thing 'cause at high levels you shouldn't be having issues.
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Orion
Prince


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Weirder ideas:

Be a Demon! Invisibility? Extra Arms? Yes, Please! Teleport anf wings are also decent. Tieflings rock out, but Product of Infernal Dalliance isn't bad, when you cna abuse the natural weapons and full death attack.

Necromantic feats have already been recommended to which I add: play a ghoul. Free +DEX and a bite, and since you already have high CHA for the necro feats, take Enervating touch for a paralyze.

Kung-fu Ninjas: Zen Archery lets you apply touch spells through a crossbow bolt. So on top of Sniping someone for umpteen d6, add a ghoul or vampiric touch to the mix. At this point consider taking a level in Monk. With Willow Step and zen archery you can ignore DEX, pumping INT and WIS. For your style, get either Concealment and +4 Saves (poor man's HIPS) or Stun through weapons for ANOTHER SoD on every shot.

Energizer Bunny: Taking one level in Fire Mage or other Energy Mage classes gives you a potent ranged attack to snipe people with. The damage isn't spectacular compared to a full death attack, but this is great before you get it or as a ranged backup on a melee assassin. and hey, touch attack.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*mad cackle*

Thanks, Boolean.

The only thing that grits my teeth is how even though the character(s) will be levels 10-12, they still won't be able to get the level 11 abilities on [Combat] feats, which the makes the ranged feats more...iffy to use.

(As a side note, I do suggest that Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes could be dual-tagged with [General] and allowed to scale to level rather than BAB.)
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Demons are IMO the best part about these Tome series, but most Tome warriors such as Samurai will hand a full demon's ass to them.

They're more for style and adaptability as survivors than for straight-out winning 1v1 combat.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sigma999 wrote:
Demons are IMO the best part about these Tome series, but most Tome warriors such as Samurai will hand a full demon's ass to them.

They're more for style and adaptability as survivors than for straight-out winning 1v1 combat.


I dunno. When Koumei broke out the Meteor Ninja, I decided to see how it'd work with the Fiend classes/feats and wrote Belg, a Fiendish Brute 4/True Outsider 5/Meteor Ninja 7, with Fiendish Brute level strategically placed so he could take Large and Huge size feats as soon as they were available.

He's...somewhere around here, but I remember that with a BoG str-increasing item, he had a Str of 40. Combined with his Huge Size and the Meteor Ninja abilities, the numbers he could generate were damn pretty damn scary.

Edit: Noticed the qualifier "full". I agree with that, but the Fiend classes/feats get interesting results when mixed with other stuff.


Last edited by Maxus on Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, I do emphasize the FULL CLASS aspect of the dilemma. You must multiclass the fiend with something effective or it will remain just that... a walking bag of XP.

I suppose Tome of Battle would work but pretty much any warrior class that can increase options would suffice.
40 STR only goes so far; I suspect it was the Meteor Ninja abilities in itself that gave your build its power.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sigma999 wrote:
Yes, I do emphasize the FULL CLASS aspect of the dilemma. You must multiclass the fiend with something effective or it will remain just that... a walking bag of XP.

I suppose Tome of Battle would work but pretty much any warrior class that can increase options would suffice.
40 STR only goes so far; I suspect it was the Meteor Ninja abilities in itself that gave your build its power.


Well, Meteor Ninja abilities in combination with Fiendish levels mined for BAB, Physical Attribute increases, feats, and a Sphere, combine to make a good cat-and-mouse character. The 7 points of Natural Armor from 4 levels of Fiendish Brute aren't bad, either.

For the record, here's the Meteor Ninja.

Meteor Ninja
"Float like a butterfly, sting like an elephant"

Prerequisites:
Size: Large or larger
BAB: +5
Special: either 8 or more ranks in Hide, or the ability to become Invisible.

HD: d8
BAB: +3/4
Saves: Good Fort and Ref
Skill Points: 4+Int

1 Sneak Attack +1d6, Hide in Plain Sight
2 Shadow Clone Technique
3 Sneak Attack +2d6, Blend In
4 Aura of Silence, Assassin's Grasp
5 Sneak Attack +3d6, Always Invisible
6 Crushing Assassination, Who's Next?
7 Sneak Attack +4d6, Meteor Dance

Sneak Attack: As per the Rogue. If you already have Sneak Attack, it stacks.

Hide in Plain Sight: As per every other Prestige Class that has it.

Shadow Clone Technique: As a standard action, you may conjure up shadow clones, using "Mirror Image" as a Supernatural ability. You may do this once per day per class level with a caster level equal to your character level.

Blend In: As a mind-affecting effect, people forget that you are actually a giant, and forget that you don't belong where you are. As long as you are within 20' of at least 5 other people, you may cause all who see you to believe you are the same size as those other people and part of the group.

Aura of Silence: This supernatural ability can be activated at will. It causes Silence to extend in an aura, filling the squares you occupy and extending 5' further in each direction.

Assassin's Grasp: If you elect to grapple a flat-footed foe who is smaller than you, and succeed in the grapple attempt, you may cover their mouth to prevent them from making noise, and hide them against your body. If you are hidden, you remain hidden. Additionally, you may use your size to your advantage in strangling/crushing them. You deal normal unarmed damage, plus sneak attack, plus double your Strength bonus.
Additionally, you deal 2d6 damage per size category of difference.

Always Invisible: As a Supernatural ability, you may make yourself Invisible at will with a standard action. You become visible as soon as you attack someone, but may spend a swift action to hide in plain sight once this happens.

Crushing Assassination: You may, as a standard action, make a brutal attack against a flat-footed foe who is smaller than you. If you hit, the attack is automatically a critical hit, and the target is knocked prone. They are also hurled 5' for every 10 points of damage you deal. If they strike a wall, roll 1d6 for every 5' they are prevented from moving. If that is enough to destroy the wall, then it is destroyed and they continue to move. Otherwise, they take the damage.

Whether they make the full movement or not, the target then has to make a Fortitude save (DC is 10 + half your HD + your Str modifier) or be Stunned for 1d4 rounds.

Who's Next?: When you deliver a Crushing Assassination, the Assassin's Grasp or a killing blow, every foe who can see you must make a Will save (DC 10 + half your HD + your Cha modifier) or cower for one round and be unable to attack you for one minute. If they are already suffering from any fear effect, or fail the save by 5 or more, they panic for 5 rounds. If they are under a fear effect AND fail the save by 5 or more, they fall comatose from fear for 3 rounds, and wake up frightened.

Meteor Dance: You gain a limited form of flight, based on jumping. You gain a flight speed equal to your land speed, however this cannot be used to charge or run, and you must both start and end your movement on a solid surface.

If you use this flight to move into the square of a foe, then you may make a Jump check. Should this beat the attack roll they make for an Attack of Opportunity, you avoid the AoO entirely. Additionally, by leaping into their square (AoO hitting or otherwise), you slam your momentum-charged body into them, knocking them prone and delivering 3d6 damage per size category above Medium, plus double your Strength modifier.
-----------------------------------
So at Huge size with 40 Str, just Assassin's Grasp alone is doing...Unarmed/Natural Weapon damage (which can be considerable with Improved Natural Weapon/Attack), +4d6 Sneak Attack, +40 damage, plus another 4d6 because he's Huge and his target is likely Medium.
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thanks for the help. That got the Assassins sorted out.

As always, I'll put up any further questions here...
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, unanticipated drawback.

The guy who's going to actually run this is wondering why Assassins seem to go hand-in-hand with magic, and he's wondering if it's possible to take the spellcasting and give them something to replace it.

The only thing I can think of is "A ton of Bonus feats and maybe Full BAB".

I think the Bonus Feat progression would be mirroring when they got access to new spell levels, but I can't decide whether they should be able to choose Skill, Combat, both, or any feat they qualify for.
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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K
King


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
Okay, unanticipated drawback.

The guy who's going to actually run this is wondering why Assassins seem to go hand-in-hand with magic, and he's wondering if it's possible to take the spellcasting and give them something to replace it.

The only thing I can think of is "A ton of Bonus feats and maybe Full BAB".

I think the Bonus Feat progression would be mirroring when they got access to new spell levels, but I can't decide whether they should be able to choose Skill, Combat, both, or any feat they qualify for.


The Assasin only gets Illusion, Necromancy, and Divination spells. This means his ideal tactics are things like "cast improved invisibility, then attack". He can really do melee and spellcasting other then to create distractions.

There are some Necromancy spells that are "attack spells", but I don't see them as being very effective(Ray of Enfeeblement sucks, regardless of what some Paizonians think).
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

K wrote:
Maxus wrote:
Okay, unanticipated drawback.

The guy who's going to actually run this is wondering why Assassins seem to go hand-in-hand with magic, and he's wondering if it's possible to take the spellcasting and give them something to replace it.

The only thing I can think of is "A ton of Bonus feats and maybe Full BAB".

I think the Bonus Feat progression would be mirroring when they got access to new spell levels, but I can't decide whether they should be able to choose Skill, Combat, both, or any feat they qualify for.


The Assasin only gets Illusion, Necromancy, and Divination spells. This means his ideal tactics are things like "cast improved invisibility, then attack". He can really do melee and spellcasting other then to create distractions.

There are some Necromancy spells that are "attack spells", but I don't see them as being very effective(Ray of Enfeeblement sucks, regardless of what some Paizonians think).


Improved Invisibility was one of the first things I thought of when selecting spells for this Assassin trio. For the rest of the spells, I was looking at the Image series of spells with some variations here and there, figuring them to be a good way for an Assassin to fuck with a bunch of PCs.

"There he is!"...."No, wait, that was Silent Image..."..."There he is for real!"..."No, that was Major Image"

Though if I were playing a level 13 Assassin, I'd take a look at getting the Transmutation school for the Exotic Method bonus...

Also, anyone else find it strange that the Assassin gets the ability to do a Death Attack on each hit of a Full Attack action, before he actually gets the BAB to do more than one attack?
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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K
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:

Also, anyone else find it strange that the Assassin gets the ability to do a Death Attack on each hit of a Full Attack action, before he actually gets the BAB to do more than one attack?


Rapid Shot, TWF, haste...there are many ways to get multiple attacks in a full attack at that level.

Note also that Death Attack doesn't have a range on it, unlike sneak attack. Archer assassins are quite viable.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mmhmm. Point Blank Shot + Sniper is quite the combination for an Assassin, especially if he's abusing Hide in Plain Sight.

And some of the skill feats help you deny Dex bonuses to people more.

Speaking of which.

Does Sniper extend other things? I mean, I noticed a potentially nice trick--If one took Master of Terror and got that 30-foot fear aura, one might be able to argue that Sniper extends it to 60 feet. Here's the relevant texts...

Master of Terror

You scare people so bad they follow you around hop-
ing you won’t hurt them.
Intimidate ranks:
0: Whenever you use Intimidate in combat, it affects everyone within 30 feet of you.
4: You gain followers. Your leadership score is equal to your ranks in Intimidate plus your Charisma modifier.
9: You gain a cohort who enjoys frightening your underlings almost as much as you do. A cohort is an intelligent and loyal creature with a CR at least 2 less than your character level. Cohorts gain levels when you do.
14: You gain the frightful presence ability. When you speak or attack, enemies within 30 feet of you must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/ 2 your character level + your Cha modifier) or become shaken for 5d6 rounds. An opponent that succeeds on its saving throw is immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours.
19: Your opponents take a -2 morale penalty to saving throws if they can see you and you are within medium range (based on your character level).

Sniper [Combat]
Your shooting is precise and dangerous.
+0: Your range increments are 50% longer than they would ordinarily be. Any benefit of being within 30’ of an opponent is retained out to 60’.
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Improved Invisibility is a must.
So is Silence.
You could outright bypass the opposed check mechanic unless your enemy has magical countermeasures, or a bucket of paint.

Teleport is nice to have, or at least Dimension Door, but then again pretty much anyone could benefit from it.
No need for Open Locks/Disable Device to remove obstacles; just skip past them.

I'd give up on the scaring idea for an assassin; scaring means interacting with the enemy without killing them, and if you're doing that, what's the point in stealth?
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FrankTrollman wrote:
Scaling feats were just a bad idea. I'm sorry I wrote them.
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SunTzuWarmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Just for the record, as long as we are talking about defenses, I currently play a Monk 1/Samurai 8

If someone tries to hit in melee:
Monk fighting style allows an AoO as a Trip (small monsters) or Disarm (big monsters) attempt
Monk fighting style allows 20% miss chance
AC 29 with Two Weapon Fighting (and no combat Expertise)

If someone tries to hit with spells
Samurai levels allow an AoO against the DC of the spell
Spell resistance
High saves
(also, high touch AC from monk, and 20% miss chance for touch spells)

"They're more for style and adaptability as survivors than for straight-out winning 1v1 combat."
WTF? Have you seen the samurai? I threw down a Kiai! for 120 damage (crit x3 weapon) last session to one-shot a CR 12 monster at level 9. Looking at the stats for monsters, that one-shots about half of them. I have 5 attacks in a round (2 BAB 2 TWF and a monk Fatal Strike), and 6 Kiai!s per day. This means in all reality that this character could dispatch 6 CR 12 creatures within a round (Spring Attack and Cleave are class abilities) on a lucky roll.

The samurai flat-out wins 1v1 combat.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SunTzuWarmaster wrote:
Just for the record, as long as we are talking about defenses, I currently play a Monk 1/Samurai 8

If someone tries to hit in melee:
Monk fighting style allows an AoO as a Trip (small monsters) or Disarm (big monsters) attempt
Monk fighting style allows 20% miss chance
AC 29 with Two Weapon Fighting (and no combat Expertise)

If someone tries to hit with spells
Samurai levels allow an AoO against the DC of the spell
Spell resistance
High saves
(also, high touch AC from monk, and 20% miss chance for touch spells)

"They're more for style and adaptability as survivors than for straight-out winning 1v1 combat."
WTF? Have you seen the samurai? I threw down a Kiai! for 120 damage (crit x3 weapon) last session to one-shot a CR 12 monster at level 9. Looking at the stats for monsters, that one-shots about half of them. I have 5 attacks in a round (2 BAB 2 TWF and a monk Fatal Strike), and 6 Kiai!s per day. This means in all reality that this character could dispatch 6 CR 12 creatures within a round (Spring Attack and Cleave are class abilities) on a lucky roll.

The samurai flat-out wins 1v1 combat.


Sig was talking about the Fiendish classes.
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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SunTzuWarmaster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Right then, carry on. I agree then.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sigma999 wrote:
Improved Invisibility is a must.
So is Silence.
You could outright bypass the opposed check mechanic unless your enemy has magical countermeasures, or a bucket of paint.

Teleport is nice to have, or at least Dimension Door, but then again pretty much anyone could benefit from it.
No need for Open Locks/Disable Device to remove obstacles; just skip past them.

I'd give up on the scaring idea for an assassin; scaring means interacting with the enemy without killing them, and if you're doing that, what's the point in stealth?


Improved Invisibility is available and grabbed. Silence isn't. It's a Bard/Cleric spell, otherwise they'd have it.

The teleportation spells would be awesome, but they can't get them because they're levels 10, 11, and 12, and they can only score a new school starting at level 13.
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Bone Rider
" "We can make it; we'll just have to ride all night. ."

The desire for a steed that will not tire or balk is instantly understandable by anyone who has ridden for even a short time. Still, while the dark arts can provide, there are few who are willing to take steps down that path. The Bone Rider is one who has chosen to sacrifice the luxury of acceptance for the power and convenience of using the raw power of death for transportation and war.

Prerequisites:
Feats: Mounted Combat
BAB: +3
Skills: Ride 7 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 3 ranks, Diplomacy 4 ranks
Special: Must have proficiency with all martial weapons.
Class Skills: The Bone Rider’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points/Level: 2 + Int modifier
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good

Level, Abilities:
1 Mount the Dead, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Spellcasting
2 Versatile Riding, Deadly Touch
3 Bonus Feat, Animate Dead
4 Speed of the Dead, Hunger of the Dead
5 Bonus Feat, Eternal Faithfulness


What's Animate Dead do? Is it at-will, a few times a day, added to his list of spells known, or something else?
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Seventh_Wing
NPC


Joined: 27 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Tome of Necromancy (Full) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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I'm about to start playing a ghost-flavored necromancer character any day now, and this class seemed to fit the concept I had in mind perfectly, but I don't entirely understand some of its abilities...

What exactly is the purpose of Revenge of the Fallen and Avenging Spirit? How do they work exactly?

Aren't 10 ranks in all knowledge skills a bit much? What about the 'undead can't attack you' ability? How well is this balanced compared to other PrCs?

Also, I don't quite get Usurp Death's Kingdom and Vengeance of the Dead. Just what is 'Necromantic Intelligence' anyway? How is it useful?

Would this class fit an unorthodox, cheerful necromancer whose primary concern is putting ghosts to rest and preserving their knowledge? If not, how could I adapt it to better fit the concept? Optimization is not that important for me, if that makes a difference.

(Sorry if these questions seem silly, I just never played something like this before.)

Thanks in advance. :)


Last edited by Seventh_Wing on Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Maxus
Overlord


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, a Necromantic Intelligence is a overmind which inhabits an area of great tragedy or whatever, controlling all the undead in the area for some reason or another.

Avenging Soul's purpose seems to be giving the party an extra friend, of the 'enemy of my enemy' variety--one not actually in their control, but the bad guys now have someone else gunning for them.

And, no, 10 ranks in Knowledges isn't too much. They're knowledges. Their only uniform use is PrC requirements--after that, it's up to the DM to make them useful.

The undead attacking them...Well, it's flat save, and an undead NPC made like a PC should be able to make it eventually. It's a good passive defense ability, but won't actually help them beat anything.

And, yes, I'd play Speaker For the Dead as a exorcism man. I'd suggest you read through the Tome of Necromancy before you do (up in the Frank and K Tome Thread sticky.)

Welcome to the Den.
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Seventh_Wing
NPC


Joined: 27 Dec 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
Well, a Necromantic Intelligence is a overmind which inhabits an area of great tragedy or whatever, controlling all the undead in the area for some reason or another.

But... how would you go about using it in an actual game?

Maxus wrote:
Avenging Soul's purpose seems to be giving the party an extra friend, of the 'enemy of my enemy' variety--one not actually in their control, but the bad guys now have someone else gunning for them.

Oh, I see. Hm... I'm not sure that would be very useful either, for this particular character (or campaign for that matter).

Would this PrC be good enough if I just removed Revenge of the Fallen, Avenging Soul, Usurp Death's Kingdom and Vengeance of the Dead? If not, any suggestions on what I could replace them with?

Maxus wrote:
And, no, 10 ranks in Knowledges isn't too much. They're knowledges. Their only uniform use is PrC requirements--after that, it's up to the DM to make them useful.

I guess you have a point there. :)

Maxus wrote:
The undead attacking them...Well, it's flat save, and an undead NPC made like a PC should be able to make it eventually. It's a good passive defense ability, but won't actually help them beat anything.

Now that I read it again, it does seem sort of fitting. You're right.

Maxus wrote:
And, yes, I'd play Speaker For the Dead as a exorcism man. I'd suggest you read through the Tome of Necromancy before you do (up in the Frank and K Tome Thread sticky.)

I flipped through it already (that's how I found this class in the first place!), but it seems a little heavy on the rules, and light on explanations of how these things actually work in a real game... The Revised Necromancy Handbook, on the other hand, is really useful that way. I will need to examine them both thoroughly.

But tell me, can a wizard necromancer maintain a few (1-4) really strong undead "bodyguards," or is undead control exclusively the domain of clerics and dread necromancers? Maybe with undead leadership instead of spells? I'm clueless.

EDIT: Are there any good choices available at level 7? It seems unlikely, but I thought I'd check just in case.

Maxus wrote:
Welcome to the Den.

Thank you! :)


Last edited by Seventh_Wing on Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:49 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Judging__Eagle
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Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Things with up to 14 hit-dice when made into undead?


I know that an Ettin and a Fire Giant skeleton are decent early on, of course, you need to kill either, but that's not impossible. I had a lvl 4 or 5 RoW Barbarian that would kill an Ettin in one round flat, but would be at like, 5 hit points.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Necromantic intelligences are basically there to be plot devices/open-air dungeons.

Quote:

In the area of a Necromantic Intelligence, the land is either shadowy during the day as dark clouds obscure the sky, or misty (treat as an obscuring mist, even though it may be composed of dust, ashes, or some other substance).

Any living creature killed in the area becomes an undead creature with a CR equal to its former CR (DM’s choice, unless the Necromantic Intelligence is Aspected) when the sun next sets. The most terrifying facet of a Necromantic Intelligence is that it has a purpose and a will, and it coordinates the undead that compose it. Assume that it is a creature that can see anything that any of its undead can see.

Often it will coordinate fiendishly clever tactics using masses of undead to fulfill its purpose. Like a ghost, if it should ever attain its purpose, it will be destroyed. Knowing this, some clever heroes have helped Necromantic Intelligences in an effort to destroy them. A legend lore or bardic knowledge check is often needed to discover an Intelligence’s purpose.


The Necromantic Intelligence commands the activities of a great number of undead of varying powers. As a rough guide, the Necromantic Intelligence controls undead with CRs equal to the levels of followers attractable by a character with a Leadership score of 35 or more (using the Epic Leadership rules). Challenging the entire Necromantic Intelligence is an EL 11 adventure.


It's there as an adventure--use your own creativity to work it into a game if you want it. Myself, I'm planning a game which contain a necromantic intelligence which is located on a field where three armies killed each other, almost to a man. Naturally, it's a spawning ground for zombies, skeletons, and such.

Now, thanks to the Necromantic Creation Feats, you can pick up some undead bodyguards.

Quote:


Necromantic Creation Feats
Any feat with the [Necromatic] tag is a necromantic creation feat. This means that it is merely one part of the dark tradition of necromancy; other means such as necromancy spells or other effects can create these undead, but this an easy path for the serious Necromancer.

One trait shared by these feats is that each feat has a separate control pool for the undead it creates. For example, if a necromancer has the Path of Blood feat and the A Feast Unknown feat, he may control up to his unmodified charisma modifier in vampires or vampire spawn in addition to controlling up to his unmodified charisma modifier in ghouls.

It is a move action to give commands any one undead creature. Any undead controlled by this feat cannot create undead or use the Spawn Undead ability. The rituals are inexpensive, but require the flesh and blood of intelligent creatures as well as living creatures or fresh corpses as subjects. Any additional costs or conditions are listed in the individual feat.

These rites take 1 hour per CR of the creature created, and can only be performed at night or in a location that has never been touched by the sun (such as a deep cave).

The maximum CR of an undead creature created with these rites is two less than the creator’s character level. Materials to create any undead always cost at least 25 gp per hit die. Creating undead by these method generally requires at least an hour.


Body Assemblage [Necromantic]

The discarded husks of life are nothing more than a building material to you.

Prerequisite: Caster Level 1, ability to cast 1st level spells of the Necromancy school.

Benefit: You may create skeletons and zombies that serve you alone. You automatically control up to your unmodified Charisma modifier in undead created by this feat, but no undead can have a CR greater than two less than your character level. Special: A first or second level character can create undead less than their own CR, but each undead creature counts as two for control purposes.

Whispers of the Otherworld [Necromantic]
You have learned the tricks of torturing a soul past the veil of life, and into the shadow of death.

Prerequisite: character level 4

Benefit: You may create incorporeal undead. In addition, any undead you create have a +2 to Initiative, +4 to Move Silently checks, and Lifesight as a Special Quality. You automatically control up to your Charisma modifier in undead created by this feat, but no undead can have a CR greater than two less than your character level.



There you go. Although I'd suggest changing the materials required to be slightly more benign. At least for the ghosts.

Personally, I've gotten to prefer the Tomes on the DnD wiki, if only because the table of contents make it easier to quickly locate things.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%28DnD_Other%29

There's a list of the materials needed to create specific published undead at the bottom.
_________________
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!


Last edited by Maxus on Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Draco_Argentum
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Tome of Necromancy (Full) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Seventh_Wing wrote:
Would this class fit an unorthodox, cheerful necromancer whose primary concern is putting ghosts to rest and preserving their knowledge? If not, how could I adapt it to better fit the concept? Optimization is not that important for me, if that makes a difference.


It would fit that to a tee. The class is based on the main character in the Necroscope series of novels. Harry Keoh pretty much goes around the place being nice to the dead and fighting vampires. The dead are nice to him in return. Good books.
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