Kaers are the way to go

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User3
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by User3 »

Assasin wizards are remarkably successful right up until they hit a trap. I mean, wouldn't you hire a simple commoner to walk around and pretend to be all powerful so the any scry and die bastard out there will fall into a trap? I know I would. Sounds like a good source of swag, since that assasin mage has to be at least 9th level. And in short order you will run out of the stupid mages. Only the tricky ones who don't try BS like scry and die will be left. You don't even have to kill that mage, just knock him unconcious. Then Baneful Polymorph him and leave him in a Private Sanctum room wth some food and let him die of old age. Its the only 100% way to kill a DnD guy.

Think like a spy, or a Shadowrun character. Misdirection is the key to a long-lived mage. The world would never even hear my name and associate it with magery until I had reached the point that I was immune to Scry.

Check out the book called Spellfire. It actually runs this scenario. I think like 9 mages from apprentice to archmage get axed over the course of the novel.
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Sir Neil
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by Sir Neil »

K, if mages are superheroes, wouldn't Gandalf and Professor McGonagall have to wear revealing spandex?
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

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Desdan_Mervolam at [unixtime wrote:1086304561[/unixtime]]Jeebus Crow, People! Watch yer damned quote tags! Is that so hard? :screams:

-Desdan


Taken care of. Sorry for the disturbance, folks.

Game On,
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Username17
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by Username17 »

Commoners pretending to be you doesn't actually fool Scry and Die. You search for "The Wizard who slew the Glamdring Basilisk" and then they make a Will Save with a bonus, and this keeps happening until you win.

That's how it works. Think like a soldier, because it's a war with hundreds of sides.

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Lago_AM3P
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Actually, I could see that kind of subdividing existing for wizards, but for CLERICS (especially godless ones), wouldn't the cycle of kill-or-be-killed basically end up as all clerics being good-aligned?

Seriously. There is absolutely nothing stopping evil clerics of Hextor, Gruumsh, and Wee Jas from stabbing each other in the crotch; hell, clerics of Hextor are expected to do so to get ahead.

However, good clerics can't go apeshit on other good clerics. Even if dwarves have hated elves for hundreds of years, if both of the deities are good aligned (and so are their clerics), Gaxx the dwarven hierophant can't do anything about his seething hate for Syndel the elven high priestess. Ever. Since they're both good aligned, even the best-coordinated attack ends up in suicide.

Evil clerics don't have this restriction, however. In fact, evil clerics gain a lot more from killing evil clerics of other deities and have no reason ever to even partially contemplate a truce. If one of Lolth's priestesses has a choice of either killing one of Gruumsh's or Yondalla's--but only one--her priestess is going to go after Gruumsh's. She may be able to appeal to the halfling deity's mercy, love of man, hatred of violence, whatever, and live to see another day; even if the chance is very small, it beats the hell out of blowing all of your mojo and still having the evil orc shaman wait for you to get home, spell-depleted.

When you consider the fact that good priests can't hurt other good clerics and it's in the evil cleric's best interests to hurt other evil clerics, a few generations of this hyper-conflict will make it so that the vast majority of holymen are good-aligned and only monolithic, brooding evil exists.

So in D&D, evil cowers from the forces of good like a pansy, and it's their own damn fault. Bastards can't help themselves.
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by Username17 »

Actually, I could see that kind of subdividing existing for wizards, but for CLERICS (especially godless ones), wouldn't the cycle of kill-or-be-killed basically end up as all clerics being good-aligned?


Evil Clerics have access to Barghests and Good Clerics don't. Thus, in principle there is nothing stopping evil from coming back again and again (barring Trap the Soul, but according to the BoVD that's an [Evil] spell and Good Clerics can't even use it or allow it to be used on their behalf), while Good Clerics have a 50% or higher chance of being done away with permanently every time the other side nails them.

Since the game has defined preventing your opponents from just undoing all of your progess with True Res as a tactic available only to the forces of Evil, I don't really think it matters how much infighting they perform. Evil killing evil, or in fact experiencing death under any circumstances, is largely cosmetic. But when good guys die it has a good chance of being for real.

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User3
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by User3 »

SRD wrote:Scrying
Divination (Scrying)
Level: Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M/DF, F
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: See text
Effect Magical sensor
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.

Knowledge Will Save Modifier

None1 +10
Secondhand (you have heard of the subject) +5
Firsthand (you have met the subject) +0
Familiar (you know the subject well) –5
1 You must have some sort of connection to a creature you have no knowledge of.

Connection Will Save Modifier
Likeness or picture –2
Possession or garment –4
Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. –10
If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and the subject’s immediate surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject). If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet.
As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.
If the save succeeds, you can’t attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours.


Scrying is much harder than simply saying "I want the guy who killed my brother?" You need a connection(as defined in the above text). Otherwise, Scry would be the perfect divination. ("Show the archmage who would give me his spell book if I just asked?" or "show me the last person who lied to me?" or "Show me the non-wizard standing next to the completely unguarded Rod of the Archmagi?"

You have to have a connection, or have heard about the guy. you can't just scry randomly. Also, even if you heard that K of the Black Robe killed the Dragon of Western Reach, and someone described what I looked like, you still have only one chance a day to find me. Add in my good Will save, my Non-detection, and my possible spell resistance, and its going to take a lonf time before you find me. If I have Detect scrying on(a spell that lasts 24 hours, I have a chance to scry and die in return, and most likely I'll have a round to repair. If I sleep in a Rope Trick, then you can't teleport into it. Seems like a pretty good defense.

So just walk around and tell everyone that the commoner next to you killed the Dragon of Western Reach, maybe even distribute broadsheets withn his likeness. Give him some fancypants wizard clothes, and your trap is set. Assasin mage barbeque.
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by Username17 »

Um... second hand knowledge is really easy to get. You just have to talk to anyone who has ever met the subject. Really, it's laughably easy, and they get a whopping +5 to their Will Save. Now you may have to try again, but whatever.

This isn't difficult or anything. Actually, I would submit that if noone has met the guy, you probably don't even feel the need to go after them. I mean, noone has met the guy!

Scry and Die only has difficulty when trying to avenge the assassination of Alyara, not when killing Alyara in the first place. The fact that it has limitations at all only encourages scry and die assassination - because all you have to do is wear a hood and you'll probably get away with it.

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User3
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by User3 »

Right, that's why mages(and adventurers) are superheroes. Getting into a public office, even if you do it by axing the old king, means that people know you and ax you in return with a scry and die.

Except the ancient sorcerer king(15th level), who basically is so powerful(casts Mindblank or the like) that scry and die can't work on him.

I don't see why other powerful nobles can't enchant permanent Forbiddance on their castle, thus preventing the scry and die casters from usurping the nation every ten minutes.

Basically, adventurers don't do random attacks on strangers because there is a moment when the bear gets you.
-------------------------

Evil may have barghests, but only the good care enough to Raise their own. The evil are like "and I should bring Steve the totally evil back from the dead so that he can become my rival because...."

Good also has those spells from the Exalted book that changes alignment. Who needs to kill his enemies when you can turn them instead?
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a literal reading of the Feed (Su) ability mean that the barghest has to kill the good cleric with his own bare hands to kill the opponent forever?

But nonetheless, there's no reason stopping the forces of good from taking a few months off to stick a knife in the back of every barghest. Given their relative power, they're probably not strong enough to stop a genocide and probably not numerous enough to recover when the forces of good realize that the only thing stopping them from finally winning teh war is to murderalize all of them.
User3
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Re: Kaers are the way to go

Post by User3 »

All creatures exist in infinite numbers on the planes, so that's right out, even if the Barghest wasn't also an extraplanar creature. There will always be an infinite number of Half-fiend things out there. Sad but true.
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