Druid Cheese: Layering Alter Self, Wildshape, & Shapechange

[User3]

Okay, I nabbed this quote from Frank from another thread on this page.

...and it's why the Druid can turn into an animal, then buff herself, then turn into an elemental creature and keep all the buffs. Upon Wildshaping into an Elemental he gets all the feats, and then he can Shapechange into some kind of real creature like a Marilith for actual combat.

Now, this is truely amazing to me, since I just rolled up a 13th level Human Druid character who will be playing a campaign that will go Epic. The Druid's A Thousand Faces ability now allows me to *Alter Self* at will.

So my queries go something like this:

1. Just how exactly do the mechanics for "layering" Alter Self, Wildshape, & the Shapechange spell work regarding sequence of activation?

2. If this is all legal (which I believe you, Frank), what kind of insane cheese can you work with this layering effect, from a combinatorial standpoint and using Skip's recent Polymorph musings at the WotC web-site?

3. Does all this layering get kiboshed when a Druid wildshapes into a Plant (at 12th level) and tries to use A Thousand Faces? Or does the ability to wildshape into a freakin' bi-pedal Vine Horror *and then* layer Alter Self/Changeshape remain legal and therefore somehow abuseable?

--

Thanks!

[Username17]

Not quite. The druid's thousand faces ability only allows you to gain the benefits while in your normal form. Which means that Alter Self layering only works if Alter Self is the lowest level of the transformation.

What does that mean? It means that you transform into a Dwarf and an elf before you wildshape into anything, because that gives you extra weapon and armor proficiencies.

1. Just how exactly do the mechanics for "layering" Alter Self, Wildshape, & the Shapechange spell work regarding sequence of activation?

Your "form" is that of the most recent transformation. Every ability granted by every previous level of form changing is still in effect unless a subsequent round of form changing would remove it. Note that the list of abilities you get and the list of abilities you keep are totally different, and can be massively exploited (note that weapon proficiencies always accumulate, while vision always goes away for some reason).

The Druid Alter Self can only be turned on when you are in your normal form, but it stays on after you transform into another form (for example, by the change enacted by the ability itself). Shapechange can trigger a new form at any time the spell is active as a free action. Unlike other form changing, it replaces itself. This means that if you shapechange into a Fire Giant (gaining heavy armor proficiency for some reason), and then take a free action to transform into an iron golem, you lose the heavy armor proficiency. OTOH, if you shapechange into a Fire Giant, and then polymorph any object into an iron golem, you keep the heavy armor proficiency.

2. If this is all legal (which I believe you, Frank), what kind of insane cheese can you work with this layering effect, from a combinatorial standpoint and using Skip's recent Polymorph musings at the WotC web-site?

Weapon and armor proficiencies stack. Spell-based bonuses stack. You can gain all the benefits of the "animal buffs" (Nature's Favor and such), while having all the armor and weapon proficiencies out of Alter Self, while shapechanged into an entirely separate combat form such as an Iron Golem.

Iron Golem + resizing Dragonhide Magical Armor + Magical resizing Dwarven Waraxe + Magical resizing Darkwood Shield is completely hillarious. And by hillarious I mean that your armor class is in the sixties and your attack bonus is high enough to hit yourself.

3. Does all this layering get kiboshed when a Druid wildshapes into a Plant (at 12th level) and tries to use A Thousand Faces? Or does the ability to wildshape into a freakin' bi-pedal Vine Horror *and then* layer Alter Self/Changeshape remain legal and therefore somehow abuseable?

You have to put up the Alter Self first, so the only thing you can hand up to the plant form is continuing spell effects or abilties that the Plant form doesn't get rid of.

So you could, for example, Alter Self yourself into a Dark Creeper to pick up some sneak attack and weapon proficiency, and then Wildshape yourself into an animal and then cast Nature's Favor and/or Nature's Avatar on yourself, and then Plant Wildshape into a Vine Horror.

That would work.

But you can't Plant Wildshape yourself into something and then Alter Self yourself into something else with the thousand faces ability because it only works in your normal form.

[User3]

Holy Jesus and a Half.

That is some good stuff, Frank.

I was under the impression that the occassional build where the Druid could dip into a PrC (like Contemplative) was worth the cost. But now I doubt that. The wildshape progression and Thousand Faces class features are way too mandatory. Straight Druid is just plain smart ... and sick ... ALL THE TIME.

Regarding my original post (and the quote of yours), I assume the feat acquisition you are talking about is just for the Air and Fire elementals. Those are the only ones that give racial feats from what I recall.

Also - Skip's recent shenanigans with Polymorph clarification (snort) implies that equipment resizes. I'm not sure if that implies weapons and armor, does it? Somehow I'm under the impression that equipment, weapons, and armor are all separate entities. Damn me for not having books handy or SRD download capability.

[Wrenfield]

You get a huge payoff as a Druid taking the Otherworldly feat in the PGtF. It makes you a Native Outsider. Which then makes your "Thousand Faces" ability apply to 5HD and lower Outsiders forms - such as a Lesser Xorn, Xill, Ravid, Rast, etc. Alter Selfing into Ravid form gives gives you a +15 Natural Armor bonus and 60' Fly (Perfect) locomotion. And I am assuming, all armor and weapon proficiencies since its an Outsider (odd though, because it does not use them).

Then follow Frank's suggested progression into: Wildshape Animal (cast buffs) -> Wildshape Vine Horror (for all the Plant defenses and VH class abilities).

And at 13th level, you can literally be like this all day long. Which is just wacky. Indeed, Druids are the Mack Daddy of the adventuring world.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Good god, I'm glad my players haven't figured all thisn out yet.

I'll keep all this in mind when I re-write Polymorph. any advice?

[Username17]

Regarding my original post (and the quote of yours), I assume the feat acquisition you are talking about is just for the Air and Fire elementals. Those are the only ones that give racial feats from what I recall.

Actualy no. Druidic Elemental Wildshape is an exception to the normal rules of polymorphing in that you gain all the Extraordinary, Supernatural, and Spell-like Abilities and all the feats.

Since you never ever lose feats when you change shape, naturally you'll want to invest in the "extra wildshape" feat so that you can pick up: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave (large earth or water elemental), Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobiity, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse (large fire elemental), Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack (large air elemental) as quickly as possible.

Then you can cycle into whatever your actual combat form is going to be (elemental wildshape doesn't change type and is therefore a somewhat crappy thing to stop at, you want to end up as a plant or construct if at all possible), confident in the fact that you just spent 3 elemental wildshapes to pick up 10 feats which pretty much last all day.

Now, as for the question of picking up Prestige Domains: The 3.5 druid gets basically no class features after 16th level. All you get is extra uses of wildshape which can be gotten cheaper and faster from taking the Extra Wildshape feat. So once you pick up Elemental Wildshape at all (level 16), then you'll want to bail on the class as quickly as possible so long as you keep getting spellcaster levels (because the only meaningful ability of Druids past 16th level is uses/duration of Shapechange, which is a function of caster level).

If only there was a way to get access to Persistent Divine Power with 4 levels of prestige classes....

Special Note: None of the basic elementals even have Spell-like abilities, so the claim that Elemental Wildshape allows you to become things of Type "Elemental" is extremely strong (why else would they even talk about what happens to the forms Spell-like abilities if it was restricted to a class that didn't have any?). Consider the lowly Immoth, who has the ability to "prepare spells" in such a way as they can be cast quickened later on. It's a Spell-like ability which you do get. Those quickened spells can then be cast on the fly while you are busily beating the crap out of people with your far too massive attacks - it also has some pimp feats and can replace the water elemental in the wildshape chain.

-Username17

[User3]

Since you never ever lose feats when you change shape, naturally you'll want to invest in the "extra wildshape" feat so that you can pick up: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave (large earth or water elemental), Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobiity, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse (large fire elemental), Combat Reflexes, Flyby Attack (large air elemental) as quickly as possible.

Uh --- I don't think so. Do you have a page reference somewhere stating you don't lose feats when you sequentially wildshape?

that's an insane amount of feats to acquire for 3-4 wildshape usages.

[MrWaeseL]

1085755079[/unixtime]]You get a huge payoff as a Druid taking the Otherworldly feat in the PGtF. It makes you a Native Outsider. Which then makes your "Thousand Faces" ability apply to 5HD and lower Outsiders forms - such as a Lesser Xorn, Xill, Ravid, Rast, etc. Alter Selfing into Ravid form gives gives you a +15 Natural Armor bonus and 60' Fly (Perfect) locomotion. And I am assuming, all armor and weapon proficiencies since its an Outsider (odd though, because it does not use them).

Then follow Frank's suggested progression into: Wildshape Animal (cast buffs) -> Wildshape Vine Horror (for all the Plant defenses and VH class abilities).

And at 13th level, you can literally be like this all day long. Which is just wacky. Indeed, Druids are the Mack Daddy of the adventuring world.

You're altering into en outsider for the proficiencies, but you already have them from the otherwordly feat.

[Wrenfield]

So you could, for example, Alter Self yourself into a Dark Creeper to pick up some sneak attack and weapon proficiency, and then Wildshape yourself into an animal and then cast Nature's Favor and/or Nature's Avatar on yourself, and then Plant Wildshape into a Vine Horror.

I wish you *could* get the Dark Creeper's sneak attack! Although per the Alter Self description in the 3.5 PHB, you don't gain any extraordinary special attacks. And it looks like the Creeper's SA is (Ex).

Uh --- I don't think so. Do you have a page reference somewhere stating you don't lose feats when you sequentially wildshape?

Hm. Good question. I can't find that reference either. Perhaps Frank will divulge his source.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Unless they specifically say you DO lose the feats somewhere, I'd say Frank has a decent case, whether it says you do not lose the feats or not.

Granted, I think it's due to some dumb loophole that really shold have been fixed before the game hit the shelves, but it's still there, and we all have to deal, either by allowing it, or house ruling it.

[da_chicken]

I've always been of the opinion that "Same Effect with Differing Results" and "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant" (PH p172) means that multiple uses of shapeshifting abilities doesn't let you chain feats and abilities.

But I don't care enough about it to debate things with Frank. I don't play with him, and I have better things to do.

[User3]

She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.

"...the wild shape" is that particular shape, not any Wildshape she may take after that. One you change forms, you loose the bonus feats.

I also don't think that this passage indicates that only female Druids gain the feats.

-Catharz

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Well, I do.

[Username17]

"...the wild shape" is that particular shape, not any Wildshape she may take after that. One you change forms, you loose the bonus feats.

By that logic, Thousand Faces doesn't work at all, because once you use it, you aren't in your normal form anymore and you can't benefit from it.

You keep the feats until the duration runs out. You are maintaining the wildshape effect until the duration expires, not until some arbitrary other time. This is how absolutely every single game effect in D&D works, get used to it. If a spell effect is no longer targettable but its duration hasn't run out, it still has as much effect as it can (obviously Fox's Cunning will be a little pointless when you are dead, but if you come back to life or your body is Polymorph Any Objected into a creature before the duration runs out, that +4 intelligence bonus hasn't turned off).

This is basic D&D effect stuff, and I am totally puzzled why us adults even have to have this conversation any more. If the rules worked any other way, the Animate Object Spell would have an automatic duration of zero. Sheesh.

I've always been of the opinion that "Same Effect with Differing Results" and "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant" (PH p172) means that multiple uses of shapeshifting abilities doesn't let you chain feats and abilities.

Then your opinions are stupid. If it actually worked like that, casting a second polymorph effect on a creature who was polymorphed wouldn't function, because the primary would still be in effect. But we know that's not how it works. Why?

Because creatures in "Alternate Form" can be polymorphed!

Alternate Form is "as polymorph", so if they can be polymorphed, other polymorphed creatures can also polymorph. And how do we know that they can be?

Because they have the power to turn back once they are!

That power could not exist unless their form could be changed, and if their form can be changed, then form changing chaining can happen. And if form changing chaining can happen, you jolly well use the rules for what abilities come and go as listed here.

At least, if you are a masochist.

Keep in mind that I have been a proponent of simply dropping the entire notion of the replacement + dumpster diving for power school of form change altogether for many years, so your backhanded digs at me are in this case wholly unwarranted. If you just want a pissing contest, I'm good for that too.

-Username17

[User3]

By that logic, Thousand Faces doesn't work at all, because once you use it, you aren't in your normal form anymore and you can't benefit from it.

That does not make any sense, Frank. The rule statement that defines Thousand Faces in the PHB is talking about "access" into Thousand Faces/Alter Self. So terminating it once you are in it (to say, go back to Human form from Orc form) sends you back to your original state, thereby making you legal to re-enter Thousand Faces. It's pretty explicit, Frank. And not open to interpretation.

You keep the feats until the duration runs out. You are maintaining the wildshape effect until the duration expires, not until some arbitrary other time. This is how absolutely every single game effect in D&D works, get used to it. If a spell effect is no longer targettable but its duration hasn't run out, it still has as much effect as it can (obviously Fox's Cunning will be a little pointless when you are dead, but if you come back to life or your body is Polymorph Any Objected into a creature before the duration runs out, that +4 intelligence bonus hasn't turned off).

Eh ... that's a serious extrapolative assumption, Frank. Read this from the SRD:

"...At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity..."

You are claiming that sequential wildshaping "events" allow goody or feat stacking. Yet, when a wildshape event ends, it ends, and so do all the acquired goodies. So I'm not sure what you are talking about as far as feat retention goes.

[Username17]

Because the Wildshape event does not "end" when you change into something else.

If you wildshape into a bear, and then get polymorphed into a chipmunk, and then dispel the transformation into a chipmunk, you turn into... a bear. The bear wildshape hasn't ended, it's still going.

Now there's lots of bear abilities you lose when you get transformed into a chipmunk - all of the bear's natural weaponry, for example.

But you don't lose everything. According to Skip Williams, you don't lose anything you know (such as weapon proficiencies and feats), but do potentially gain feats. So when you chain it, you learn everything it says you learn along the way, and forget everything that it says you forget along the way.

And these should be the same list, but they are not. If you gain a feat (such as greatsword proficiency) for transforming into a giant, logic says that you should lose that feat if you transform into anything else. But according to Skippy, that's not what happens!

Don't bitch me out, bitch Skip out. He's the one who wrote up gain and loss lists that are not the same. As soon as that happens you can chain polymorph for additional effects. Obviously you shouldn't be able to, but you can according to Skip's Polymorph tirade.

-Username17

[da_chicken]

1086109943[/unixtime]]

I've always been of the opinion that "Same Effect with Differing Results" and "One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant" (PH p172) means that multiple uses of shapeshifting abilities doesn't let you chain feats and abilities.

Then your opinions are stupid.

OK.

If it actually worked like that, casting a second polymorph effect on a creature who was polymorphed wouldn't function, because the primary would still be in effect. But we know that's not how it works. Why?

Well, if you'd actually have read the sections I mention, you'd read that newer effects generally superscede older effects.

Obligatory SRD quote:
Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

[fbmf]

If anyone thanks this thread can be salvaged, I welcome you to start a new one, but Polymorph threads inevitably degenerate into shit around here pretty rapidly. Besides....