DnD Society: Wizards are superheroes.

[User3]

When a wizard casts a spell, you know two things:

1. A rough estimation of his power.

2. A rough estimation of the value of his spell book.

So, if you see a guy cast Wall of Fire(a spell with effects so obvious that you don't need a Spellcraft roll), you know that he can cast at least 4th level spells, meaning he's at least 7th level, and he has a spell book with 14+ spells of levels 1-4. (of course, he could take every feat as Spell Mastery, but lets assume he doesn't).

So, if you are another wizard or a guy with one rank in Spellcraft, you know the rough GP value of a rival wizard. Since we all know that poison or a sneak attack kills a wizard easier than most people, we can guess what happens next.



So, I think that wizards hide their identities, and their faces. They use pseudonyms, and invest in Batcaves and anti-divination magic. Otherwise, the first time they cast a spell in public, a small horde of people will try and kill them at the inn and run off with their spell book to sell on the open market, or to other wizards.

<The party walks into a tavern with their wizard.>
"So, who's that?"

"Oh, he's our party.....stable boy."

Fighters and rogues and the other classes aren't as flashy, or have as much built in swag. Unless you really watched a fighter guy and really knew about fighting, you'd never know if he was a piss-poor Warrior or an rich swag covered adventurer.

Unless he carried a flaming sword, of course.
<Cha-ching!>

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I really doubt that a horde of people would come running up to attack a wizard, that's just dumb to assume that would happen.

[Oberoni]

Your logic train in your opening post makes assumption after assumption, K. I sincerely doubt commoners are able to tell what level a spell is. I also bet they can't size up the size of a wizard's spellbook based on the flashiest spell he can cast.

Furthermore, I doubt that there first inclination upon seeing a man wield inhuman amounts of power is "I would like to kill and steal from that man." More likely, it's probably "I probably shouldn't screw with that man."

Wizards literally wield the powers of death and distruction--I doubt the average Joe wants to screw with that in order to make off with a heist.

And, finally, add in the fact that the wizard that is chucking around Walls of Fire might actually be a sorcerer with no spellbook at all, and you'll see why your proposition lacks weight.

[User3]

Commoner 1, no.

Rogue 1, yes. A rogue 1 is no Average Joe to fear and loath a little danger. He's even got the skill points to burn that a Spellcaft of 1 or 2 is not a hardship, and that should be enough to know roughly what a wizard is capable of at different levels.

As for the Sorcerer argument, thats the same as the Wizard with Spell Mastery feats. Sure, it could happen. Robbery is always risky.

[Oberoni]

1085497922[/unixtime]]Commoner 1, no.

Rogue 1, yes. A rogue 1 is no Average Joe to fear and loath a little danger. He's even got the skill points to burn that a Spellcaft of 1 or 2 is not a hardship

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

Rogues that do this are, from at least my humble experience, in the minority.

[Username17]

When a wizard casts a 4th level spell, you know he's going to be a tough nut to crack. You know that he's high enough level that he could be keeping all his swag in a Secret Chest where you won't get any of it. You know that he's high enough level to have firetraps or alarms that will go off if you mess with him, and you know he's high enough level to just straight up kill you with a dirty look.

You know for a fact that going after him will be very dangerous and you don't know that he has any money that you can actually have. In fact, you know for a fact that even if he has any money, he's powerful enough to have hidden it away from thieves in such a manner as to leave you out in the cold.

That's the bottom line. It's like deciding to rob the military base because those land mines they keep burying have got to be worth a fortune. People can do it, very rarely someone actually does. But military bases don't hide their identity, quite the opposite.

They usually put up signs that say "military base, lots of weapons, keep out" - and people do. Because they want to live, and there are safer ways to make a dishonest buck.

Most of the diamonds in the world are in the possession of people who aren't carrying rocket launchers on their back, and if you for whatever reason decide to go stealing diamonds, the guy with the rocket launcher is probably your last choice.

--

In addition, of course, people using high level effects doesn't mean that they are even people. With so many creatures available, if I saw someone transform into a troll and start rending people, I would probably assume that they were a Sirine or something rather than a spellcaster at all.

There are lots of true breeding speciies which cast spells. If you see someone casting spells, their chances of being a member of one of those species far outweighs their chances of being a player character class. There aren't enough 7th level druids to keep a population going, but there are enough Nymphs to keep a population going, because there is a population going. Nymphs, therefore, outnumber the number of elves who are 7th level druids by a whole lot.

Your claim that people would go "He's got a rocket launcher, therefore he might have phat loot, let's get him!" is completely unfounded and totally retarded. There is no logical reason to do that. Ever.

-Username17

[Sma]

Enter the Dwalin, Balin, Kili, Fili, Dori, Nor, Ori, Oin, Gloin, Bifor, Bofur, Bombur, Thorin and of course Mr. Baggins, and a certain Dragon, not to speak of your average adventuring group

But seriously attacking Wizards isn´t the way to make money, put those Skills to use get a wand of charm person and live of the free drinks their fighter friends put you up for.
After all if you weren´t after easy money you wouldn´t be a thief, would you?

Sma

edited for lack writing skill due to hands freezing off. It´s supposed to be summer round here, sheesh.

[User3]

Since DnD monsters can, for the most part, ignore genetics, there is no reason to believe that there is a massive population of Nymphs* in the world. There could only be 100 in the whole world, and no one would ever know. Same with all the other monsters. Only the humanoids have actual populations(orc hordes).

There could be only 60 Rocs in the whole world, and no one would notice, bother to count, or care. Same with Mimics, or Ropers, or any other number of the weird ones.

-------------------------

Wizards are an easy mark. Low HP, poor saves, no Spot or Sense Motive. A simple food poison, and then you rifle his clothes with a stick. Take 20 on your search roll for all those nasty traps. Anything obvious like a

And maybe he keeps his swag in a Secret Chest. you won't know until after he's dead.



*According to DnD lore, Nymphs mate with all other fey, producing the father's race(sometimes even other fey) or nymphs. What kind of genetics is that crap?

[Sma]

1085506430[/unixtime]]

Wizards are an easy mark. Low HP, poor saves, no Spot or Sense Motive. A simple food poison, and then you rifle his clothes with a stick.

So is the sleeping fighter, or nearly anyone you pull an ambush on. I don´t get your point.
If you are a high level Wizard and still are afraid of getting mugged in a dark alley, there is something wrong in my opinion. Maybe it´s time to Planar Bind yourself a bodyguard, or simply tell your familiar to keep a lookout.
If on the other hand you are afraid of someone following after your last display of magic, and then mugging you in an alley, well he followed you and your party out of the lair of that dragon, so being afraid is definetly an option.

The only consequence seems to be, that wizards don´t travel alone, but then who does ?

[User3]

My point is that unlike everyone else, you can almost immediately guess a wizards power by a single spell used in public.

No one else carries a level tag on their shirt. Can you tell the difference between a high level Expert(no equipment) vs a high level Rogue, or a Warrior vs a Fighter without pulling out metagame knowlege("that's too much damage, it must be a sneak attack" or "he just used combat expertise")?

To an outside observer, only a Wizard or other spellcaster is so clearly defined.

[Username17]

My point is that unlike everyone else, you can almost immediately guess a wizards power by a single spell used in public.

And based on the fact that even a CR 7 Oread can manifest Earthquake - that's just not true. If someone casts a spell in public the only thing that tells you is that they've cast a spell in public. That's it.

It tells you that if you are first level you should probably get the fuck out of the way, and that's really the end of it. It doesn't tell you what they are, what kind of treasure they have, what side they are on or anything else. It just tells you that they have a spell.

Period.

-Username17

[Maj]

If common people can identify fourth level spells as fourth level spells than why on earth is there a trained-only skill called Spellcraft?

[Sma]

Even if you leave the non-pc races out of the picture, all it tells you is the minimum level of your soon to be enemy, wouldn´t you simply hate it if that total stranger you witnessed conjuring up a fiery wall, was in fact elmisters big brother on his day off ?

What you are describing is a hotshot thief, going off uninformed. Which, while possible, is going to make him a cautionary tale sooner or later. Its about on par with Fighters running into caves without getting some intel first.

You describe it as if those things happen in a vacuum, but in my experience they tend not to. You don´t walk through the wilderness and see a lone wizard casting Wall of Stone, and then proceed to poison him, for no other reason as to get his spellbook. For all you know he could be a Cleric with the spell domain or some multiclassed obscenity from some thread off these very boards. Seeing him cast one spell and thinking "I can take him ! Easy as pie" doesn´t strike me as the wisest course of action. And if he´s casting anything above level 6 he´s out of the league of easy pickings. If you´re high enough in level to take on Wizards of that kind of power, there should be easier moneymaking schemes around for you, like poisoning that orc camp and taking their money.

And if that´s not enough, why not use that Sleight of Hand the class is famous for and simply take his book, what´s he gonna do ? If he comes after you alone you know he´s got no friends, and if he brings some friends you might get away with your life if you only took his spellbook, without getting blood all over you. And before you say, dead men can´t talk, they tend to in D&D.

Greetings,

Sma

[User3]

Maj,
Common people can have Spellcraft. Even one rank should be enough to see the effects of a blatantly powerful spell and guess the relative power.

Frank,
I don't have the write-up for the Oread, but I assume its Earthquake ability is a spell-like or supernatural. The presence or absence of Somatic, Verbal, and Material/Focus components should be a good guess that its not a spellcaster. Shouldn't even require a Spellcraft roll.

Sma,
Dead men tell no tales. Unless you have a body. Without a body, a True Ressurrection or two Wishes are required.

Even if you juice a clericomancer of the ju-ju god, casting a Wall of Fire still means you've got swag. Good swag.

Pick pocket is for chumps. No wizard is going to let you live after you steal his livelyhood. why would you let someone live just to cast divinations and find you later?

[Username17]

Sometimes you have good ideas, like the Rogue Bonus Feat thing.

This is not one of those good ideas. The difference between a silent stilled spell and a spell-like ability is not at all apparent unless you make a spellcraft check to determine that that's what is going on.

The spellcraft DC is 23 - so even if some first level character gets some cross classed ranks, they still have exactly no chance whatsoever of figuring this out.

It's like watching someone perform an 8 die sneak attack - that has meaning to a 12th level adventurer, but to absolutely everyone else it's just some guy demonstrating that he can kick your ass and do things you don't even understand.

Which means that the chances of you picking a fight with them while sober are basically nill. Their capabilities are literally beyond your capacity to evaluate, so you would never ever go after them. You simply have no way of knowing what they may or may not have.

It's like running through a mine field when you know with absolute certainty that the mines can blow you to pieces and also know with absolute certainty that you don't have the first notion of how they work, where they might be located, or whether they track you down or not. All you saw is some guy walk into a field and explode into chunks of meat paste - if you have no idea how mines work, are you really telling me that you are going to jump in because whatever made that explosion is possibly worth a lot of money?

That is literally the dumbest thing I have read all month, and I just read part III of Skip's ever-increasingly house ruled description of how he thinks Polymorph works.

-Username17

[User3]

Frank,
I always know when you've come up empty in an argument. You get insulting.

If you were thinking clearly, you would have just said "Well, that's true, but pretty much metagame thinking."

[Username17]

No it's not true. It's like saying "Aren't you afraid people are goign to run into our minefield naked and steal them? We pay a lot of money for those things, so they would prbably expect to be able to sell them back to us if they survived."

It's a complete nonsequitor.

Normal and low-level people:

1> Can't be expected to know what power levels of magical power use mean.

2> Can't be expected to actually succeed in bumping off people who have such magical power.

3> Have no capacity of actually making any money off of doing it.

Remember, adventurers routinely kil bandits and take their magical doodads. People who whack adventurers get ganked themselves by the only people who actually have the money and inclination to own these magic items - which are adventurers.

It's a completely ass random assertion you've made, and absolutely everyone is against you in this because you are completely wrong.

-Username17

[Sma]

1085521330[/unixtime]]
Sma,
Dead men tell no tales. Unless you have a body. Without a body, a True Ressurrection or two Wishes are required.

Even if you juice a clericomancer of the ju-ju god, casting a Wall of Fire still means you've got swag. Good swag.

Pick pocket is for chumps. No wizard is going to let you live after you steal his livelyhood. why would you let someone live just to cast divinations and find you later?

Completely destroying the body, still better hope that stranger burning lots of landscape didn´t have any friends.

Yes, I probably have swag, nice shiny swag, swag that I might have taken from someone. And you still don´t know whether Im a Wizard, Cleric or Walking Freakshow. All you know is my minimum level. Casting that wall of fire might as well been fingerstretching. Where does the Rouge in question take the certainty of taking me down before I get my next spell off ?

How exactly is the wizard going after you now that he has no spells ? Might take him a while to get up to speed, and until then you´ll be far gone. You were taking some sort of precautions against potential failure, weren´t you ? Because if you weren´t, why are you going after wizards, anyway ? Why not go after some weaker stuff, and face no risk instead ? How about those tottering fools coming back from the den of dozy derros. Seems llike a much simpler and safer plan. But you´re not after safe are you ?

Sma

[Oberoni]

So K, you're assuming that a majority of rogues drop a cross-class point into Spellcraft?

And you're assuming one point not only lets you know about the 10 levels of magic, but it lets you roughly pinpoint where any given flash spell falls on that spectrum?

...interesting assumptions.

[MrWaeseL]

You weren't really being serious, right K?

[User3]

One rank of Spellcraft and an Int of 10 and no other bonuses means that some of the time, you can precisely identify up to a 6th level spell based solely on observed casting. Now "identify" has always been undefined in Spellcraft skill, but most people play it that you now the level, effects, range, etc of the spell as if you wer looking at the spell description. (A human level 1 Commoner an 18 Int, 2 ranks, the Skill Focus feat, and the Magical Aptitude feat can identify spells up to 11th level spells some of the time. ("Oh that....that's an Epic spell, Ruin, duration blah blah blah...").

And as a person living in a world of magic and demons, I think a few ranks in Spellcraft helps everyone.

Basically, I think people are pissing themselves over the fact that they fear that their DM has been making normal people into pushovers to feed their egos, because based on the rules of the system, normal people can be extemely dangerous. High level is not required.

[Sma]

I´m not debating that, given the right circumstances, normal people can be dangerous.

What I was saying is, that in no way would any sane person attack the Wizard for his spellbook, because they now 'know' how powerful he is.

Sma

[Username17]

You really could dig up those landmines, and if you somehow didn't die, then you could go find a buyer.

Of course, the people who have an interest in landmines would probably shoot you for having dug up their land mines, rendering the entire enterprise meaningless.

Honestly, how many people attempt to loot mine fields? Mine field looting is actually less dangerous and stupid than wizard hunting, because the mine fields aren't also actively attempting to screw you, they are inanimate and built to be movable.

Normal people can run into land mines and attempt to steal those expensive anti-personelle explosives under the ground, but they don't. It's stupid and the potential rewards really don't entice much of anyone.

And that's exactly the same damn thing as people chasing after wizards just because they figured out that the wizard cast a powerful spell. Exactly the same thing in all ways.

-Username17

[User3]

You landmine analogy is weak. Wizards are far easier to find, kill, and otherwise deal with. They are just humans, despite their access to a few interesting effects.

Assuming that a weak person who tries to sell swag will be immediately killed out of hand is also rather dumb.

Basically your arguments are based on emotion and not logic. End of argument.

[Sma]

1085594347[/unixtime]]
Basically your arguments are based on emotion and not logic. End of argument.

Good, cause I´m utterly lost on what you´re trying to sell.

Sma