Making Polymorph as a set of bonuses: comparing notes.

[Username17]

First of all, I do not want to get this thread bogged down in a set of recriminations about whether bonuses are too large for a fourth level spell, or too big compared to some spell that clerics get, or any of that. I honestly don't think that spell levels are a meaningful way of handing out power, and I really honestly do not think that a 17th level character should get any less for a 4th level spell than a 9th level spell.

What this is for, is to check up with people who have used Polymorph effects as written, and to compare notes about which forms broke the game and which forms did not. So if you had a hissy fit and didn't let people transform into stuff, I don't really care about that either. I only want to hear about real playtest stuff.

Note also that I'm discounting the fact that some of these forms are only available if your wizard is a lesser tiefling or using PAO, or enhance wildshape, or whatever. If a form was possible at all, I want to know whether it was broken in your game.

For comparison, let's consider that the character Polymorphing is medium sized, and has all physical attributes of 12. You can have a character better or worse than that, but let's assume that for the moment. Here are various incarnations of popular monsters under different rules revisions and their effects:

+1 size
+11 Strength
+2 Dex
+7 natural armor
+5 Fortitude Saves
This form may have granted darkvision 90' or Regeneration 5. If you played it this way, please specify.

+1 size
+5 Dex
+2 Con
+4 Natural Armor
5 frickin attacks.
rend.
scent
+10' movement, climb speed

+1 size
+24 strength
+1 Dex
+5 fort save
+12 natural armor
Depending upon your definition of "natural", this form may have provided Trample, Darkvision, Rock Catching/Throwing, or even Fast Healing 3. If it did in your game, please specify.

+1 size
+19 strength
-3 dex
+4 fort saves
+8 natty armor
+10 ft. movement

+1 size
+15 strength
+3 dex
+3 fort save
+11 natty armor
+10 ft. movement

+1 size
+13 strength
+7 dex
+4 fort saves
+19 natty armor
90 foot flight speed
Depending upon your DM's definition of natural, you may or may not have gottenimmunity to electricity, cold, and petrification; resistance 20 to fire and acid; +4 saves against poison; lowlight and darkvision; SR 30; fast healing 10 or even something else entirely - if so, please specify.

+1 size
+9 strength
+3 dex
+4 fort saves
+18 natty armor
8 attacks per round!
Improved Grab
Constrict
Depending upon your DM's interpretation of "natural", you may have also gained: Immunity to Poison and Electricity; Cold, Fore, and Acid resistance 20; darkvision; SR 25, and possibly other abilities as well. If so, please specify.

+1 size
+24 strength
+1 dex
+11 constitution
+12 natty armor
+10' movement
trample
rock-throwing
targettable as giant

+1 size
+24 strength
+1 dex
+11 constitution
+12 natty armor
+10' movement
trample
rock-throwing
targettable as giant
Light armor proficiency, greatsword proficiency

+6 strength
+1 dex
+4 con
Improved Grab
Druid spellcasting as a 16th level druid!
80 foot fly speed.
+10' normal speed.
bonus proficiency in the composite longbow.
Depending upon what you think separated parts revert to oringal form means, you may have poison. If so, please specify.

+1 Size
+11 strength
+2 Dex
+11 Con
+5 natty armor
targettable as giant
depending upon your DM's interpretation of attacks from limbs, you may get 3 attacks and a rend. Or maybe not, please specify.

+2 sizes
+17 strength
-4 dex
+9 Con
+13 natural armor
trample
double damage against objects
targettable as plant
depending upon your DM's interpretation of attacks from limbs, you may get 2 slams. Or maybe not, please specify.

+2 sizes
+17 strength
-4 dex
+9 Con
+13 natural armor
trample
double damage against objects
Immunity to mind affecting effects
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, polymorph, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits.
Don't need to sleep.
depending upon your DM's interpretation of attacks from limbs, you may get 2 slams. Or maybe not, please specify

+1 size
+19 strength
-3 dex
+9 Con
+8 natural armor
Rock Throwing
targettable as giant.

+1 size
+19 strength
-3 dex
+9 Con
+8 natural armor
Rock Throwing
targettable as giant.
Immune to fire, Vulnerable to Cold
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons.
Proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor and with shields.

+1 size
+13 strength
+7 dex
+8 con
+19 natural armor
90 ft. fly speed
targettable as good outsider

+1 size
+13 strength
+7 dex
+8 con
+19 natural armor
90 ft. fly speed
targettable as good outsider
home plane = mount celestia for some reason
Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification.
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
Breaks DR as Good with any weapon.
Proficient with simple weapons and greatswords
Cast spells as a 17th level cleric!

And so on. If other forms have been used frequently in your game, please tell us about it, and make sure to mention whether the game broke or not.

-Username17

[User3]

Off topic-ish:

Polymorph plus Dismissal = Plane Shift?

Nice!

---------------

On topic-ish:

I have studiously avoided becoming an 8-head hydra. Eight attacks is just too much. At higher levels, you get more heads/attacks.

[RandomCasualty]

1085692101[/unixtime]]
And so on. If other forms have been used frequently in your game, please tell us about it, and make sure to mention whether the game broke or not.

What exactly do you mean by breaking the game in this context?

[Username17]

1085698422[/unixtime]]

1085692101[/unixtime]]
And so on. If other forms have been used frequently in your game, please tell us about it, and make sure to mention whether the game broke or not.

What exactly do you mean by breaking the game in this context?

When it was used, did the game become too easy/too boring for other players/ or in any other way severely less enjoyable because people were using this particular form shifting combo in it.

That's what I mean. I don't actually give a rat's ass if people felt that the spell was abstractly too large, I'm concerned if the game actually became no fun for one or more players because of the power disparities brought about by the spell by itself.

-Username17

[Sma]

Any of the 3 natural attack forms in 5-10th level games, the fighters felt a bit shortchanged by that.
After that there mostly were enough slots available to buff everyone. We tend to to play rather cooperatively where everyone gets a buff if there´s one to go around, but at the lower end of the spectrum the casters (including me) had/have way too much fun going nuts.

My main gripe with this spell is that it´s too versatile, you memorize it and are set for lot´s of situations.

I honestly do not care if it provides real ultimate power, seeing as you tend to fight against a replenishable resource. So raising it by one level and making it affect one person per CL would settle the whole thing for me.
Everyone gets buffed , everyone is happy.

Just so you get some input

Sma

[RandomCasualty]

Well, a bonus around +20 to strength will make the game no fun to play for any combat character that doesn't have it, and will probably make the game too easy. After all a +10 to hit and a +15 to damage is above and beyond. With power attack, that's a +35 damage per swing... that's damn insane power wise, and just a pointless power up. It also makes polymorph a must take spell.

Now the DM can always arbitrarily raise the CRs of the opponents to compensate, but doing this is a slippery slope, because that just means the PCs level faster, and then they get even stronger and the DM has to inflate even more.

Another aspect that makes polymorph not fun is the fact that you're choosing a race because you want to be it. I mean your character is a dwarf and you want to play the typical Gimli, scottish pirate style dwarf... or maybe you want to play a paladin like Gallahad... or a ranger like Aragorn. Now, it totally destroys the character concept when you have to fight in the form of a giant to be competetive. That's just not fun to people. Many players want to be David, and not Goliath.

I would argue any system that has polymorph bonuses so large you must have to not suck is not fun because it utterly destroys any character concept that actually wants to be themselves. You should be able to pass up being polymorphed and not shoot yourself in the foot by doing so. Because really, most people flavor wise do not want to turn into a giant every battle.

[Josh_Kablack]

3.0 T&B (almost) Astral Deva, largely as planetar, but higher flight speed and easier time passing for unaltered human.

Depending upon your DM's definition of natural, you may or may not have gotten:
immunity to electricity, cold, and petrification; NO
resistance 20 to fire and acid; NO
+4 saves against poison; YES
lowlight and darkvision; YES
SR 30; NO
fast healing 10 NO
or even something else entirely - if so, please specify.

In play not quite game breaking, but severely bent, especially with the unlimited duration of 3.0 Poly Other combined with followers and other henchment. Might possibly have been truly broken if other issues ( simulacrum, skill bonus items, divination, movement stacking, planar binding) were not placing greater stress on the system.

[Username17]

So far it looks like a +10 strength and a +6 dex with a hefty fly speed and the ability to see in the dark wouldn't make the game come crashig down as long as noone got any extra attacks out of the deal.

Any anecdotal evidence to the contrary?

-Username17

[User3]

The most game-breaking Polymorph ever used in a game I have played in was a Kelvezu. +11 Str, +21 Dex, +6 Con, +15 nat AC, Poison (ya, allowed poison) 1d6/1d6 Con, +8d6 SAD.

[Sma]

1085723837[/unixtime]]
Now the DM can always arbitrarily raise the CRs of the opponents to compensate, but doing this is a slippery slope, because that just means the PCs level faster, and then they get even stronger and the DM has to inflate even more.

But then he isn´t forced to hand out extra XP, is he ? They´ll fight stronger or simply more stuff, have fun doing so, and don´t moan about not getting enough XP. Well we always moan but thats something different.

Another aspect that makes polymorph not fun is the fact that you're choosing a race because you want to be it. I mean your character is a dwarf and you want to play the typical Gimli, scottish pirate style dwarf... or maybe you want to play a paladin like Gallahad... or a ranger like Aragorn. Now, it totally destroys the character concept when you have to fight in the form of a giant to be competetive. That's just not fun to people. Many players want to be David, and not Goliath.

I definetly see your point, it´s just my experience that this issue hasn´t come up yet. You the fighters still were competitive, as in able to hold their ground and smack stuff, and had fun smacking even more stuff when polymorphed. There even is some kind of pride in not polymorphing. As it is a big power up most of the time, you can show off your prowess by effectively handicapping yourself. Now this has little to do with Franks original question, but I wanted to show where I´m coming from. If at the end of these discussions there is a kinder version of polymorph, I´m all for it.

Sma

[MrWaeseL]

I've played a troll, using 3.0 Polymorph, getting regeneration and drakvision. I was pretty powerful, but on-par with the fighter.

[RandomCasualty]

1085739104[/unixtime]]Now this has little to do with Franks original question, but I wanted to show where I´m coming from. If at the end of these discussions there is a kinder version of polymorph, I´m all for it.

Well, I think it has a lot to do wtih his original question, because he's not really interested in how well balanced the spell is, as far as the question "should a 4th level spell grant these bonuses." but he's more interested in if the spell's existence makes the game no fun for some people.

And the question "Does everyone want to use it?" is a big concerns when you create a spell that grants bonuses so high it is a must take. This raises a few issues. First, is it fun to be so reliant upon the party wizard? Second, do you really want to become a giant every major combat, or would you prefer to be yourself? Is it fun being outperformed by everyone else who becomes a giant when you choose to have a character concept that doesnt' involve polymorphing? In the name of fun, that's an important question, whenever you have something so important, from the ability to raise the dead to invisibility.

Now, I can't obviously speak for all PCs here, but IMO when I create a character, I'd prefer to leave them more or less in the same form that I created them and not turn into some firbolg. And to me, being forced numerically to polymorph into a firbolg every combat just isn't fun.

[Sma]

I couldn´t agree more with your general points regarding spell design. I was simply providing my personal observations, on how poly and friends influenced the games I played in. so as we seem to be of the same opinion, lets just agree to agree

Sma