Spells that fvcking kill people.

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MrWaeseL
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by MrWaeseL »

I meant that as a burn on the WotC boards btw, not as a reflection on your posting qualities :)
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Well, that too.
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by NineInchNall »

Wheeeeeee!

If only the wizzies in my groups would cast spells like these. :(

Instead they cast crap like magic missile, which makes me groan inside. That must be why they think the Fighter is a good class. *sigh* :bash:
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Zherog »

Wait - you play in my campaign?
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by User3 »

Yep, I play in the most prevalent campaign style: poorly made and poorly played characters unite!

*grumble*

I'll show 'em. Just wait until Natural Spell, my pretties. Then the Fighter's Artifact Axe won't be enough to let him keep up. Muwahahaha! Greater magic fang + barkskin + bite of the werecritter ftw!


(I'd delayed getting Natural Spell because I wanted to get the DM accustomed to my using Rashemi Elemental Summoning.)
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Judging__Eagle »

NineInchNall at [unixtime wrote:1172172109[/unixtime]]Wheeeeeee!

If only the wizzies in my groups would cast spells like these. :(

Instead they cast crap like magic missile, which makes me groan inside. That must be why they think the Fighter is a good class. *sigh* :bash:


Man, every single time I play a wizard.... ,or any other spell caster, at the gaming table; I upset everything.

Like, prepping Obscuring Mist since we`re a pretty melee and numbers heavy group, we can all wade into the mist and slug it out with our foes who may be better at ranged combat or outnumber us.

Or casting Enlarge person on a raging barbarian that made the GM at a Living Greyhawk game pretty much handwave our return trip since he realized that my 1st lvl wizard turned the 3rd lvl barbarian into a bloody monsteress (female half-orc barbarian, also, who ever said that girls don`t like to play dumb smashers).

It`s like the old saying goes:

`If your DM ain`t crying, your wizard ain`t trying`

Assuming an average or below average DM. Above average DMs have already seen what you`ve done, or can guess how to beat what you`ve done.
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by shau »

Good stuff, I don't suppose you would like to do something like this for clerics and druids?
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Man, clerics and Druids can already get a lot of similar effects.

Besides; any good roguish players knows that Archivists are where it's at.
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Cielingcat »

The only thing that Archivists have over Wizards is that they get a better HD and some special abilities, and the Archivist gets 5 spell slots without giving up 2 schools. However, the Archivist can only learn Divine spells (and Arcane ones that are also Divine), while the Wizard can learn any spells. Plus, the Archivist takes his base spells from the Cleric list, which is generally inferior to the Wizard list.

All in all, you generally want to be a Wizard unless your DM doesn't believe that Wizards can learn any spell.
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

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Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1172261960[/unixtime]]The only thing that Archivists have over Wizards is that they get a better HD and some special abilities, and the Archivist gets 5 spell slots without giving up 2 schools. However, the Archivist can only learn Divine spells (and Arcane ones that are also Divine), while the Wizard can learn any spells. Plus, the Archivist takes his base spells from the Cleric list, which is generally inferior to the Wizard list.

All in all, you generally want to be a Wizard unless your DM doesn't believe that Wizards can learn any spell.


Archivist can learn any spell ever made. Seriously.

They can learn any divine spell. A spell's divine or arcane-ness is set not by what list its on, but for lets say a scroll, on how its scribed. So you get a Warlock to scribe divine scrolls of whatever spell you want, and presto, divine version of any spell anywhere.
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Cielingcat »

Right, I forgot that part. Still, the spells the Wizard gets for free are much better than the Archivist's free ones. Which means that generally, the Archivist is better, but the Wizard manages to be superior in games with little down-time. Which means that the Archivist is actually better.
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1172309011[/unixtime]]
Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1172261960[/unixtime]]The only thing that Archivists have over Wizards is that they get a better HD and some special abilities, and the Archivist gets 5 spell slots without giving up 2 schools. However, the Archivist can only learn Divine spells (and Arcane ones that are also Divine), while the Wizard can learn any spells. Plus, the Archivist takes his base spells from the Cleric list, which is generally inferior to the Wizard list.

All in all, you generally want to be a Wizard unless your DM doesn't believe that Wizards can learn any spell.


Archivist can learn any spell ever made. Seriously.


They can learn any divine spell. A spell's divine or arcane-ness is set not by what list its on, but for lets say a scroll, on how its scribed. So you get a Warlock to scribe divine scrolls of whatever spell you want, and presto, divine version of any spell anywhere.


Yeah... so they're uhm, much better than wizards.

Get to start with some armour; better extra features; and no spell failure.

Plus, you can pretend to be a Paladin that's you know, effective.

I play a Druid-Paladin really. :D
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Username17 »

Uh... no. A Warlock can make a ridiculously easy check to make a scroll with a Divine Spell on it - but he has to mimic it off of a Divine spell list to do that. Which means that while a 12th level Warlock can quite easily spend XP to give you access to any spell that appears on any incredibly obscure Divine Spell List (such as the Adept List or the Death Delver List) - it still won't give you access to final rebuke no matter what you do or how you do it.

An Archivist can become as powerful as you need to be by pulling weird bullshit with Warlocks and Spell Scribing (you can even work with a Warlock to have him provide the spell while you provide the XP and Scribe Scroll feat) - but when you're that far into bullshit town the Wizard is still better than you because he can do the same thing off of non-arcane/divine scrolls made by Artificers. And he can get all the spells off of bullshit stand-alone Arcane Lists in addition (in case you wanted vampiric touch as a 2nd level spell from the Corrupt Avenger list).

Archivists can pull crazy bullshit. But a Cameleon or a Wizard can pull the same bullshit. Better. Archivists when played "as intended" are weak sauce (a small number of known spells off the Cleric and Druid lists is just like having a small number of spells off the Wizard/Sorcerer list except not as good). Archivists played "with all the crazy and the chocolate syrup" are still weaker than Wizards going into crazy town and running for public office.

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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1172345279[/unixtime]]An Archivist can become as powerful as you need to be by pulling weird bullshit with Warlocks and Spell Scribing (you can even work with a Warlock to have him provide the spell while you provide the XP and Scribe Scroll feat) - but when you're that far into bullshit town the Wizard is still better than you because he can do the same thing off of non-arcane/divine scrolls made by Artificers. And he can get all the spells off of bullshit stand-alone Arcane Lists in addition (in case you wanted vampiric touch as a 2nd level spell from the Corrupt Avenger list).
Bolding is mine.

I believe the Sage or recent FAq or Errata clarified the true naming status (divine, arcane, or neither) of Artificer scrolls.

Does anybody recall what that most recent ruling states?
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Username17 »

As of the latest rulings I've seen, an Artificer's scrolls were neither arcane nor divine. That means that an Archivist can't copy off of them and a Wizard can't cast off of them, but a Wizard can still learn from them and a Rogue can still cast them.

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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1172345279[/unixtime]]Uh... no. A Warlock can make a ridiculously easy check to make a scroll with a Divine Spell on it - but he has to mimic it off of a Divine spell list to do that. Which means that while a 12th level Warlock can quite easily spend XP to give you access to any spell that appears on any incredibly obscure Divine Spell List (such as the Adept List or the Death Delver List) - it still won't give you access to final rebuke no matter what you do or how you do it.

An Archivist can become as powerful as you need to be by pulling weird bullshit with Warlocks and Spell Scribing (you can even work with a Warlock to have him provide the spell while you provide the XP and Scribe Scroll feat) - but when you're that far into bullshit town the Wizard is still better than you because he can do the same thing off of non-arcane/divine scrolls made by Artificers. And he can get all the spells off of bullshit stand-alone Arcane Lists in addition (in case you wanted vampiric touch as a 2nd level spell from the Corrupt Avenger list).

Archivists can pull crazy bullshit. But a Cameleon or a Wizard can pull the same bullshit. Better. Archivists when played "as intended" are weak sauce (a small number of known spells off the Cleric and Druid lists is just like having a small number of spells off the Wizard/Sorcerer list except not as good). Archivists played "with all the crazy and the chocolate syrup" are still weaker than Wizards going into crazy town and running for public office.

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I'm confused, I thought arcane/divine was determined by the scribe. So even a wizard and cleric working together (as per the item creation rules) could create a divine scroll (cleric scribing) of a wizard spell that the wizard prepared/cast for the scribing process, and the cleric burns the xp.

Similarly, the Warlock can accomplish this feat by himself, because he gets to choose arcane/divine nature of his scrolls.
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by User3 »

Level 1
* wall of smoke (SpC)


======

Frank, what a great list! Thanks. Although I have a question about the 1st level spell you mentioned above (in bolding).

What are some good tactical uses of Wall of Smoke? I don't see it being quite a top-tier 1st level combat spell.



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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by RandomCasualty »

I was surprised flensing made the list. I've always considered it a really crap save or die spell.
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Username17 »

OK, time to defend some of the weirder spell choices:

wall of smoke. It's multi-purpose, interfering with vision and nauseating creatures who pass through it. The second use is the one which really makes it worth a 1st level spell slot, as it lacks any statement that it can't be placed right through someone's square the way wall of force does. So you can basically just drop it on someone and they have to make a fort save or be unable to cast spells or attack next turn. If you can then hold them in place (for example: grease) they will have to make the same save the next round. It's like a poor-man's shadow spray - but it's also lower level and can be used as a wall effect that negates ranged sneak attack.

flensing. Its effect is, on a round-by-round basis weak. 2d6 damage (save for half) is bullshit at any level, and is insulting at 15th level. 1d6 of Con and Charisma damage (save negates) are likewise small cheese - that won't kill much of anything. But as a DoT it isn't bad - the victim has to make another save each round whether they saved the previous round or not. That and you're 15th level, you will be able to maximize or extend this bad boy - and now you're looking at well over 12 points of damage to two stats.

And as we know, attributes are completely not correlated to creature power. 12 points of Con Damage will kill an Arcanoloth, and 10 points of Charisma damage will kill a Disenchanter. Flensing is very much a "fire-and-forget" spell that virtually demands that you then use your greater dimension door to up and leave battle and come back a minute later when your victim has taken a pile of damage to two stats. There's a lot of crazy bullshit that you can kill with that spell, making it a versatile death spell for the Archmage who fights crazy bullshit.

Similarly, the Warlock can accomplish this feat by himself, because he gets to choose arcane/divine nature of his scrolls.


Not exactly. He gets to make scrolls as a divine caster (making a divine scroll) or as an arcane caster (making an arcane scroll). He can't mimic an arcane spell-list and make a divine scroll. If he makes a scroll of time stop he can do it by making a DC 24 UMD to check to make an Arcane Scroll (using the Wizard list), or by making a DC 34 UMD check to make a Divine Scroll (using the Time Domain list) - but if he wants to make a scroll of final rebuke he has to make a DC 22 UMD check using the Wizard list because the spell doesn't appear on a Divine list that he can emulate.

There's a lot of flexibility there, but the Wizard does have more.

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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by User3 »

I am slightly confused about the spell Shadow Spray. The duration says 1 round per level, so does the 5ft radius of shadow just sit there and they have to make a fortitude save each round per level or be tekken juggled?
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

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Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1172517236[/unixtime]]I am slightly confused about the spell Shadow Spray. The duration says 1 round per level, so does the 5ft radius of shadow just sit there and they have to make a fortitude save each round per level or be tekken juggled?


Yep. Every round they make a save or they take strength damage and are dazed for 1 round. If they are dazed for one round, then next round they are likewise forced to make a save.

It's one of the best spells of any level actually. Spells like final rebuke are sometimes superior in that they are guaranteed to remove an opponent for at least one round, but if you factor in the fact that a shadow spray can tag multiple people it might easily cause the removal of more total combat actions than much higher level spells. If the spell was unchanged and 6th level it still would have made the list.

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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by IbanezNinja »

Wow that is super hardcore. I don't have my books with me, but could you use sculpt spell to control huge sections of the battle field?
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by User3 »

Nice selection of spells, Frank. I'll add some notes to some of the spells I feel are more memorable.

powerword pain (RotD) - This spell is considered to be mechanically broken at low levels. It gets lots of forum coverage across the net. And it peters out in efficacy as you rise in levels. But at low levels, it just outright kills via damage ... efficiently and quickly.

seething eyebain (BoVD) - More of a gambling spell due to its vulnerable delivery range and 1d6 CON loss. As a wizard, I don't think I'd want to use this often. The Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest (with more than a few Essentia invested) or Bind Vestige: Naberius feat helps here.

wall of smoke (SpC) - Genius call here, Frank. Lots of battlefield control combos here, especially with a bullrusher tank specialist in the party.

cloud of bewilderment (SpC) - More lingering battlefield nauseation hazards. This spell combos nicely with Sculpt Spell (feat or rod) to get it really big or really customized in shape.

lam's finger darts (BoVD) - Unlike its BoVD eye spell equivalent mentioned earlier, I love this spell. It's a no save spell, making it just a "die spell". With the Sudden Maximize feat, you can kill lots of enemies until significant SR comes onto the horizon. So if you wish to use this one a lot, keep your SR jacked high and have access to 1 of those 2 feats I mentioned above in the Eye spell.

phantasmal assailants (SpC) - Up to 16 damage in stat points (1/2 if saved). Unbelievable ... for a ranged 2nd level spell. A 5th level slot could run this spell with the Repeat Spell metamagic feat. I recommend a little boost to your Illusion spell DC to ensure all those saves get bombed.

shadowspray (SpC) - As Frank mentioned, this is the mac daddy of all 2nd level attack spells, even eclipsing that of Web and Glitterdust. It's a bonafide "must have" for a Beguiler's Adaptive Learning ability. And it Heightens and Sculpts well too (for those of you with those Metamagick feats).

flashburst (SpC) - Amazing range, AoE, and secondary effects for this 3rd level spell. It doesn't even state that creatures aren't blinded if their eyes are closed or shielded ... it's THAT penetrating!

great thunderclap (SpC) - Frank's theme of multiple detrimental effects on status condition is consistent here. Targets to this spell can be stunned, deafened, and/or made to fall prone. Yeah, it only lasts for a round, so your sneak attacker better hustle to do his job here. But in many cases, I'd much much rather have this spell than a Fireball or L.Bolt.

mesmerizing glare (SpC) - It "fascinates" multiple creatures, taking them out of combat. If you read pg. 301 of the DMG, some DMs have differing takes on what constitutes "potential threats" and "obvious threats". Your party has to tread carefully around fascinated characters to ensure they don't break free. Still, this spell can buy your party lots of prep time (for buffs or tactical repositioning). Note, it only has a somatic component, useful if the caster is silenced somehow.

nauseating breath (SpC) - A companion spell to Stinking Cloud. Also sculptable. The "nauseation" theme to this list continues. Very good.

shadow binding (SpC) - An Entangling spell in a sculpt-friendly zone of 10' radius burst that requires a DC 20 STR check or Esc. Artist check taken as a full-round. I like this spell, but I can see a lot of people not caring for it. Would combo nicely with a STR-drain spell (Enfeeblement, Shadow Spray) layered on top of it.

shivering touch (Cold Outside) - Gives this spell some range (Reach Spell feat perhaps) and some metamagick Maximization, and you've got the perfect anti-dragon spell.

vertigo field (PHB2) - More AoE, durationed Nauseation. Along with the added bonus of having partial effect immunity to your allies. In addition to nauseation, we have more deleterious effects. The 20' radius spread is also treated as difficult terrain and you have 20% miss chance when attacking. Those latter 2 effects you can't even avoid by saving against the spell! I like this one a lot.

call of stone - Uh ... where is this from?

finger of agony (Complete Mage) - Single target nauseation and small damage for 3 rounds. Meaning Extending it can have a nice payoff since saving each round does not help you with next round's save attempt.

iceweb (Cold Outside) - I dunno if this Web-spell variant is worth another +2 levels. Anybody?

-------

More later ... back to work!



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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by erik »

Dragon Breath seems like it might belong in this list for its mass paralysis option.

[edit]Then again, the crappy waiting 1d4 rounds and pathetic 15' cone are pretty shitty. I somehow missed that the paralysis is only 1d6 rounds, and assumed it was 1 rnd/caster level.

It's still an okay way to set someone up for a coup de grace, but it's not as nice as I misremembered.[/edit]
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Re: Spells that fvcking kill people.

Post by Iaimeki »

What book is call of stone from? Also, is there any chance you might be willing to list some of the good buffs (as opposed to attack and utility spells) available for sorcerers and wizards?
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