What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

[The_Hanged_Man]

1084472940[/unixtime]]

1084408268[/unixtime]] Here, 7 down or so

Apparently, it's part of the half-assed new multiclass w/ a monk philosophy. I don't get it personally, but there you go.

Why is everyone ooing and ahing at the example that Finch made? I see nothing impressive or enlightening about it whatsoeve....

I don't know either, except IIRC most people thought TWF and Flurry didn't stack. Why you'd want to add an even worse BAB to get a few more wacks is beyond me.

[RandomCasualty]

Another main problem is that the monk's theme seems to be someone that's designed as a disruptor of enemy forces, and he doesn't do this well based on how the rules work.

Basicalyl when you look at the monk, awesome saves, medium HP and attack, and fast speed, you think of that flanker unit in wargames that runs by the frontliners and tries to destroy artillery and archers. And I think that's what the monk's designed to do.

A barbarian or fighter beats him, as it should, but he should be good at killing archers and casters. Unfortunately, he sucks at this. Mostly because the 5' step rules let archers and wizards totally abuse people without reach. For the monk to work, he's gotta get some abilities to overcome those limitations.

For instance, he should create penalties to casters trying to cast defensively against him, and the ability to AoO someone even if they 5' step away from him.

And monks should be the only ones who can tumble. It doesn't really even have to be a skill anymore, you can just give them it as a class ability at some relativley early level like 3-6 where they don't draw AoOs by moving anymore. But, the monk should feel special in that only he can move by huge lines of troops unscathed.

The monk is designed as the guy who runs around back and takes out the casters and the archers, and he has to do that well for the concept to work.

[Username17]

The monk is designed as the guy who runs around back and takes out the casters and the archers, and he has to do that well for the concept to work.

No he isn't - and that's the problem. He's designed from the standpoint of a very specific character concept, with all of the game role stuff put in as a kludge afterwards.

The Monk ends up being the guy who runs after archers and tries in vain to suppress them, mostly because he sucks at everythig else more. But he wasn't designed to do that, and there's no real reason he should be forced into that combat role if you were redesigning the class from the ground.

The Monk's collection of combat abilities make no sense as a cohesive whole at all - and pretending like they do just gives you tunnel vision. For the Monk concept to work he first has to have one.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

The Monk is designed to take out arcane casters, though. The combination of dimension door, tumble, SR, good saves, and all that does work towards getting through mooks to attack a caster.

The problem is most people's casters quickly evolved beyond "sit back and cast fireball," which IMO was supposed to be the archetype. Instead, you have polymorphed melee killers, save or die, and so on, which make the monk useless.

And yeah, I agree w/ Frank - no monk has ever taken out a proper archer.

[RandomCasualty]

1084834694[/unixtime]]
No he isn't - and that's the problem. He's designed from the standpoint of a very specific character concept, with all of the game role stuff put in as a kludge afterwards.

Well, no, I doubt he was built with that concept in mind, but based on the abilities he has, he fits into that role. Obviously as I said before, he doesn't do it well, but looking at good saves, super fast speed, and tumble skill, along with stuff like stunning blow which is great versus low fort save stuff, the monk seems like he should make a great flanker trooper. Also given the fact that he's the only one who fills that role seems to suggest that he should fill it.

I'm not saying he couldn't use improvement in this area though, because he definitely could.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

The Monk cannot not suck in D&D as it is currently written, and even in OA, because the Monk cannot get the level of mechanical support they'd need to not suck. Some people, when playing a Monk want to be the really fast, really nimble guy whose purpose is to take out the ranged combat masters. Some people see the monk as the really buff Last Dragon/DBZ/Fist of the North Star character, throwing around Ki energy and death attacks and in general weilding Real Ultimate Power. Some people see the Monk as Kwai Shang Caine, wandering from town to town, relying as much on social and survival skills as martial arts to get by. Others want the guy who can kill anyone and anything just by virtue of him being the kung-fu master and thus more disciplined and skilled than everyone else(But then, these people don't want a new monk class, they just want to be 5 to 8 levels above everyone else) Still others want the Monk as the guy who can totally flip out and kill all the mooks and not even care.(Well, here the current monk acts pretty close to their expectations at least, what with more attacks at less bonus. But then most people don't really consider the ability to pwnz0r mooks to be very impressive).

The problem is that if you try to address all these visions together, you wind up with the scattershot, schizophrenic monk class we have now. To address this properly, you either need to make half a dozen monk classes, or you make the class so modular that you can choose the "Wanderer" ability set, or the "Skirmisher" ability set, or the "Ki Master" ability set and focus that way (There's little difference between the two though.) This would require stealing too much thunder from other classes though, so it'll never happen. (WotC would rather dedicate those six pages to more spells or fighter bonus feats than monk fighting styles.)

-Desdan

[The_Hanged_Man]

Desdan, I like the thinking. That would require modular classes, though, and WotC obviously isn't going that way. They like publishing PrC's - that sell books.

[User3]

1084897335[/unixtime]]Desdan, I like the thinking. That would require modular classes, though, and WotC obviously isn't going that way. They like publishing PrC's - that sell books.

Well, PrCs are great for very specific abilities that you can't get out of modular classes (Eldritch master's "Mastered name," for example). However, those could just be given as feats... Hmm...

-Catharz Godsfoot

[The_Hanged_Man]

I hate 1-level PrC's. Anything that only has one level worth of benefit shouldnt' be a PrC, it should be an ability that anyone can take w/ a feat or something.

[RandomCasualty]

1084897335[/unixtime]]Desdan, I like the thinking. That would require modular classes, though, and WotC obviously isn't going that way. They like publishing PrC's - that sell books.

Yeah, mass PrCs sucks, and it encourages anyone with access to Kazaa (just about everyone) to not buy another splatbook ever again.

After all, if all you're going to use is 2-3 pages out of your book, you might as well just download it and print those two or three pages.

[Username17]

1084918391[/unixtime]]I hate 1-level PrC's. Anything that only has one level worth of benefit shouldnt' be a PrC, it should be an ability that anyone can take w/ a feat or something.

Why?

There's no tangible reason why you should take a standard class which gives a selectable bonus ability which can be had as a specific ability that can only be taken once instead of taking the solitary level of a one-level class which gives the same ability.

Conceptually and actually, those are the same. Thus, there's no particular reason to choose one over the other except consistency.

-Username17

[Essence]

Some people, when playing a Monk want to be the really fast, really nimble guy whose purpose is to take out the ranged combat masters. Some people see the monk as the really buff Last Dragon/DBZ/Fist of the North Star character, throwing around Ki energy and death attacks and in general weilding Real Ultimate Power. Some people see the Monk as Kwai Shang Caine, wandering from town to town, relying as much on social and survival skills as martial arts to get by. Others want the guy who can kill anyone and anything just by virtue of him being the kung-fu master and thus more disciplined and skilled than everyone else(But then, these people don't want a new monk class, they just want to be 5 to 8 levels above everyone else) Still others want the Monk as the guy who can totally flip out and kill all the mooks and not even care.

All that is true, but -- I don't care what other people want the Monk to be. I, of all people, am willing to make six or seven more base classes to handle all of the various types of Monk that exist. So the question is, if you assume that the Monk is supposed to be strictly the mook-slayer, and forget all of the other things that people want the Monk to be -- is what I have so far working?

[RandomCasualty]

A 1 level PrC sucks because it's a free +2 bonus to any number of saves, and it's needlessly complex for character design.

The more classes you have, the more pages you've got to look up to check hit dice, skill list, BaB, saves, etc.

If at all possible you should try to do something with a minimum number of classes and simply use feats. If the only reason you're taking a class is so you can get an ability, that ability might as well just be a feat.

The only reason you need a PrC is if it acts like a quasi-gestalt PrC (like the MyTh), the class focuses alot on skills, or you want to ensure people have low hit dice or BaB to use the abilities.

It's what keeps the core fighter class down. For some reason we feel like advanced feats can't give great abilities, but that somehow it becomes okay if we put it in a PrC. It's the half brained design paradigm that led us to classes like the Frenzied berserker.

[Lago_AM3P]

I'm not digging it.

But partially because my problem is that the monk in my mind should literally be like the Incredible Hulk. Able to shrug off huge amounts of damage and spell effects while punching through walls.

Obviously, our views are irreconcilable.

[Username17]

I'm baffled at how 2 Quivering Palms is supposed to help you chew through mooks at tenth level.

If that was your intention, shouldn't all of their palms be quivering all the time (possibly forcing people to make multiple saves, only actually resulting in death if they fail more than one)? Then people with crap Saves will die all the time and the character can get to more mook whacking.

But as written, Quivering Palm is a chance to end a major combat once or twice per day - which has nothing at all to do with being a mook slayer. So if what you intend is the mook slayer - you've got to go back to the drawing board on that seriously.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1084933476[/unixtime]]
But partially because my problem is that the monk in my mind should literally be like the Incredible Hulk. Able to shrug off huge amounts of damage and spell effects while punching through walls.

Obviously, our views are irreconcilable.

Yeah, I see the incredible hulk more as a barbarian than anything.

[Essence]

Lago -- like I said, I'll happily make up a class for your desires. It just won't be called the Monk. Are nominative issues that important?

Imagine, for example, a class called "Budokai" with a Fighter BAB, all high saves, 2+Int skills with the Fighter's skill list plus Balance and Tumble. The Budokai's fists and skin can be enchanted as weapons and armor respectively. His fists start dealing 1d8 damage (at Medium size), and every four levels, he gains one effective size category for all rolls that his unarmed strikes relate to, including damage, disarms, etc. He gains threat range and/or crit multiplier like the Monk does as per page 2 of this thread. He gains Evasion and Mettle at 1st level, SR 10+lvl at 9th level, DR like a Barbarian. He has a natural armor bonus to AC equal to his Charisma, and a dodge bonus to AC equal to his Wisdom. He can't ever wear armor or wield a weapon, or he loses all class features until he stops doing so.

Obviously, he has a few other class features -- perhaps something like Rage, or a Sohei's Ki Frenzy, and perhaps something like the Oathsworn (Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed) 's Crushing Blow or something.

Does that better fit your vision of what you want?
Would you consider a class like that non-sucky? Why or why not?

[User3]

1084934341[/unixtime]]
Imagine, for example, a class called "Budokai" with a Fighter BAB, all high saves, 2+Int skills with the Fighter's skill list plus Balance and Tumble. The Budokai's fists and skin can be enchanted as weapons and armor respectively. His fists start dealing 1d8 damage (at Medium size), and every four levels, he gains one effective size category for all rolls that his unarmed strikes relate to, including damage, disarms, etc. He gains threat range and/or crit multiplier like the Monk does as per page 2 of this thread. He gains Evasion and Mettle at 1st level, SR 10+lvl at 9th level, DR like a Barbarian. He has a natural armor bonus to AC equal to his Charisma, and a dodge bonus to AC equal to his Wisdom. He can't ever wear armor or wield a weapon, or he loses all class features until he stops doing so.

Wow. The ultimate one-level dip!

[Essence]

Ok, move Mettle and Evasion to 2nd or 3rd level. It doesn't really matter. The point is that a Monk doesn't have to be the only unarmed combatant, and if Lago wants a Hulk monk while I want a Nakago monk and someone else wants a mookslayer Bruce Lee monk, it's not a problem.

[The_Hanged_Man]

1084927785[/unixtime]]

1084918391[/unixtime]]I hate 1-level PrC's. Anything that only has one level worth of benefit shouldnt' be a PrC, it should be an ability that anyone can take w/ a feat or something.

Why?

There's no tangible reason why you should take a standard class which gives a selectable bonus ability which can be had as a specific ability that can only be taken once instead of taking the solitary level of a one-level class which gives the same ability.

Conceptually and actually, those are the same. Thus, there's no particular reason to choose one over the other except consistency.

-Username17

You don't think consistency is worth something?

There is a tangible reason. Instead of having a hundred PrC's to keep track of, you could have a dozen or 20 classes with modular abilities.

In particular, I think of the Cavalier, the Duellist, the Exotic Weapon Master, or really any of the CW PrC's. Why do they even exist? Cavalier should just be a series of feats. Duellist should just be a seires of feats. Weapon Master is nothing but a series of feats. Frenzied Berserker, besides being silly, is just an amped an specialized Barbarian.

Why have all these stupid PrC's?

[Username17]

There is a tangible reason. Instead of having a hundred PrC's to keep track of, you could have a dozen or 20 classes with modular abilities.

... And hundreds of modular abilities.

Either one will work exactly the same. You just have to pick one and go with it.

Why have all these stupid PrC's?

Why have a bunch of stupid modular abilities?

So that you can represent different characters! In principle, there is no special reason why you should represent different characters with different classes or with different modular abilities, either one works the same because it is the same.

Some people really like putting "Snow Man Slayer" as their character class. Some people like putting "Snow Man Slayer" under their list of special abilities. However, once it's been transfered to your character sheet there's no difference where you wrote it down!

Lately I've been thinking that there shouldn't even be different classes, and you should just select abilities every time you gain them to best match your character conception. That's not actually different from just printing a crap load of classes, just a way I think the whole thing would make sense to me. Getting indignant about people who want to have character classes be fixed and numerous is, however, completely poitnless.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

The advantage of modular abilities (like feats) is that they don't come with a separate BaB, skill list and saving throws.

Modular abilities are much simpler in this sense.

And I agree with Hanged man. Fighters don't even need PrCs, at all.

[The_Hanged_Man]

1084943042[/unixtime]]Getting indignant about people who want to have character classes be fixed and numerous is, however, completely poitnless.

I'm not indignant, just annoyed. The existance of PrC's that are only good for one level is pointless. That's what I'm ranting about.

I agree w/ the class problem. There is a huge difference between having a lot of different character classes, and having a lot of different character abilities. The problem w/ having mucho PrC's is complexity. A feat or ability is just one mechanic. It lets you do one thing, like get an extra attack, or cast a spell, or move differently, or attack differently. That's relatively easy to analyze and balance.

Each PrC isn't just one mechanic, but several combined together. If you get sucky attacks, good skills, good skill list, odd feats, and an ability or two, plus spells in varying numbers and strengths . . . you've got to analyzie a lot of different aspects of the character to see how the gestalt works.

IMO, that's the reason so many PrC's are wacky. Usually, not because they're overpowered; very few are too powerful. Most suck. The reason, IMO, is that it's too hard to tell if a combination of BAB + HD + Skills + Abilities + Magic is going to break, so you err on the side of weakness.

There already are modular classes in D&D, they're just called arcane casters. Their powers are "spells." It's relatively easy to balance arcane spells, because you have the same baseline to compare them to: how much does the spell increase an otherwise weak PC's power?

[Username17]

It's relatively easy to balance arcane spells,

It is?

Let's consider for a moment a Wizard who fills his spell book with:

Comprehend Languages
Endure Elements
Incite
Guiding Light
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Protection from Evil
Summon Monster I

Bull's Strength
Resist Elements
Stone Bones
Summon Monster II

Amenuensis
Gentle Repose
Hold Person
Wind Wall

Dimensional Anchor
Iron Bones
Summon Monster IV
Wall of Good

Animate Dead
Dismissal
Sending
Stone Shape

Geas
Greater Dispelling
True Seeing
Undeath to Death

Energy Immunity
Ethereal Jaunt
Greater Scrying
Plane Shift

Create Greater Undead
Dimensional Lock
Discern Location
Symbol of Death

Astral Projection
Gate

That's all the spells you get from 1st through 17th level, assuming a starting Intelligence of 17. Most of these spells aren't bad, and the character is actually packing multiple spells which routinely make peoples' "Most Broken Spells Ever" lists.

So what's wrong with it? It is definitionally massively underpowered to an astonishing degree, but why?

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

You misunderstand me. You still need to spend some time figuring out whether spells are balanced. But it's easier to look at a spell and tell if it's right, then to look at a spell, and an ability, and BAB, and HD, and skills, and feats, and decide that the whole mess is balanced.

* * *'

You've got some spells there I don't recognize, but I'd say three things destroy that list.

First, it has a lot of situational spells, and not many general use spells. 8th level's particiularly bad IMO. Dimensional Lock, Discern Location, Create Greater Undead and Symbol of Death can all be cool spells, in the right situation, but how often can those be used in the average adventure?

Second, for a small list it doubles up a lot. Plane shift, Etherealness, and Astral Projection are all cool spells, and I'd like all three, but that's 30% of the useful (7th-9th) spells for this guy, 40% if you count Gate. They do very similar things. Don't bother telling me that they go to differnet planes in different ways w/ different effects; I know that. But essentially this guy's a planar travel specialist.

Third, it's missing the iconic spells. Magic missile, Enervation, Contingency, Limited Wish, Scorching Ray, and so on - the "good" spells.

And the "broken" spells are so broken that they now suck, since no one except Skip or Andy is going to let him do a Gate NEP vacation.