What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083911093[/unixtime]]Having Multiple attacks at a lower attack bonus is just bad design.


That depends. The D&D way is bad; others might not be.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083911093[/unixtime]]If we lived in a world with no bonuses at all, it could be made balanced. But it still wouldn't be a good idea because then you've got two completely different character styles directly competing for the same class role. That's bad, because logically one of them will necessarily perform the job better and the other will be worse.

* * *

Take the Sorcerer and the Wizard - their role is exactly the same, and the Wizard is better. [snippity] That's unavoidable.

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It's definitely avoidable. For all the fuss about more/less spells/day and so on, the Sorcerer and Wizard are functionally identical in that they cast from the same spell list, although in different ways. They get the same bang for the same buck - the fireball does the same mediocre damage whether a sorcerer or wizard casts it. If Sorcerer spells actually had different effects, well, things would be different.

A monk (w/ lots of low BAB attacks) and a fighter (w/ less higher-BAB attacks) aren't very comparable to Sorcerer and Wizard. A flurry attack is effective against different opponents than a fighter's straight iterative attack. currently, though, the difference isn't that great, so it doesn't matter much.

However, a flurry could be very different from a straight iterative attack. It is conceptually possible to make the flurry different, but equal, to the fighter - to the point that which is better depends on the campaign.

For example you could get 4 extra attacks at highest (mediocre) BAB, but only do 1/4 normal damage. You could flurry at normal damage, but get occasional single attacks w/ a +10 for damage. You could make monk attacks do something like 1d6 +2d6 against low-armor creatures, but otherwise act just like normal attacks.

I'm not saying any of those are good idead (just made them up right now, actually). The point is, if the damage dealing schtick is actually different from the fighters, you can get a separate but equal result - and adjust it down if you want fighters to still be a little better.

* * *

There also are problems w/ giving the Monk status attacks as the balance. First, it's unsatisfying. Nobody brags about the time they made the BBEG fatigued or nauseated, when the barbarian's talking about the round it did 200 points of damage. Second, it makes monk combat extremelty variable, b/c of the vast range of immunity and resistance to status changes. It's going to be much worse than rogues. Third, the mechanics are more complicated and time consuming than straight damage. Finally, status changes generally don't scale that well. A trip is a trip is a trip. At low levels, trips suck. At high levels, wizards can just stay prone.

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

Nobody brags about the time they made the BBEG fatigued or nauseated


That's just plain not true. I brag all the time about the time my wizard went 3 months of regular playing and gained several levels without inflicting a single solitary point of damage. A record which was unfortunately broken when I found myself performing a coup de grace on a temporarily unconcious fish man.

I brag about the time I held a Beholder in check by creating a whole bunch of illusionary combatants (while the rest of the party spent a few rounds filling it with arrows). I brag about the time I cast grease on a Hill Giant and then everybody dog piled it. I brag about the time I used color spray on an Ettin twice while the rest of the party hacked it down.

I brag because my delaying tactics won us the battle. I don't remember how many points of damage our dwarven barbarian did with her axe, and neither does anyone else. It was a lot of damage, but if the monsters had been fighting back properly we would have taken casualties - and because of my actions they weren't and we didn't.

People brag because they do noteworthy things which make the group win - not just because they did or did not generate large numbers.

Having two different characters who's method of combat is to generate large amounts of damage is always ultimately going to be unsatisfying. One character is going to be better at it and it's going to frustrating being the other guy. Not everyone is willing to be the guy who blinds and distracts instead of cutting people's heads off. But some people are, and there's absolutely no reason why we shouldn't work that in.

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

You're talking about clever tactics. Great stuff, but if you do it every fight, you're just the guy who never kills anything.

* * *

With few exceptions, everybody's method of combat is to generate large amounts of damage. Clerics? Damage. Druids? Damage. Rogues? Damage. Barbarians? Damage. Wizards and Bards, sometimes, can get away with not killing things as their main combat technique.

So is it unsatisfying to play a Rogue when somebody else plays a Paladin? No. Both do massive damage, but in such different ways that both feel happy game to game.

Monks could be that way. Their damage dealing could be very different than a fighters, instead of a variant. Everybody's happy.

IMO, your status monk is a PrC. It's a variant that'll be interesting to play for a while, but not for the whole schtick. What's wrong with that?
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

Wizards and Bards, sometimes, can get away with not killing things as their main combat technique.


And there's no non-magical equivalent.

Rogues and Paladins both need magic weapons, so really their essential make-up is identical. They get magic weapons and hand out damage. The Fighter, Barbarian, and Ranger do the same thing. They get magic weapons and do damage.

The Monk doesn't get magic weapons, which puts it at an unbalancable point relative to the others for the purposes of just handing out damage.

But it could be the non-magical version of the wizard - that could be balanced and entertaining.

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

A non-magical wizard? I'll need a block and tackle to suspend disbelief for that one.

OK. First, there's lots of non-magical ways to inflict condition changes. Besides the weird attacks, Diplomacy can instantly change NPC reaction. W/ no save. Seems pretty powerful to me.

Second, conditions are, what, 2nd level spells, tops. Blindness? Deafness? Fatigue? Paralyze? Level drain is a 4th level spell - and it's the top of the condition food chain. So. How is this going to work? You have a collection of sucky effects, unless you modify them to be uber somehow.

I can see this working as a prestige class, w/ some abilities stacking w/ a monk, some new abilities. I don't see this as a viable way
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Wrenfield »

You're talking about clever tactics. Great stuff, but if you do it every fight, you're just the guy who never kills anything. wrote:


Actually, Frank's spellcaster tactics show the typical modus operandi of arguably the most effective form of primary arcane spellcaster - that of the Battlefield Control specialist. It's the way I've been playing my Wizards ever since 3.0 came out.

In a typical 4-person party, you have 3 characters (Rogue, Fighter, Cleric) who's primary combat schtick is dealing heaps of damage. It does not really behoove a party to have a 4th member doing just that. The 4th member is there to facilitate, augment, direct, and maneuver his teammates into being the best damage-producers they can be. He's there to partition the battlefield into tactically advantageous (for his party) bottlenecks and kill-zones. He's there to delay the enemy, obfuscate their senses, and disable their "sure death" mechanisms to help protect his teammates and castrate the opposition simultaneously. He commonly uses figments and conjuration spells like Web, Wall of Stone, Solid Fog, Grease, Evard's Black Tentacles to achieve his objectives. And he uses them in combinations, to confuse his enemies as to what's real and what's not. He also uses spells like Teleport, Benign Transposition, & Greater Slide (latter 2 from MiniHB) to facilitate battlefield movement. He frequently uses divinations to foretell enemy contact, and buff his allies prior to "Round 1", so he can wade in immediately without wasting actions on casting Bull's Strength and whatnot.

And he rarely ever casts damage-oriented crap like Magic Missile, Fireball, etc. Because he doesn't need to. Hardly ever.

As far as your assessment goes that you are "just the guy that never kills anyone". That's absolutely true. Conversely, you are empowering your other 3 character mates into more efficiently killing those people for you.

And you get the great side effect of having your entire party love you to death for making them look like Superstars.
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Is that really fun every game? I've seen people have fun doing stuff like that, as a diversion from normal butt-kicking, but I've never seen that be the only combat thing a PC is good at.

I'm not knocking non-damage spellcasters. But to design a class whose whole schtick is a small subcategory of what other classes do . . . and have it be a subcategory few people want to do . . . and then to make the class replicate the weakest aspects of that minor subcategory . . . seems a little unproductive.
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by RandomCasualty »

Nobody said the monk has to be unable to damage people too, it's just that he does status conditions the best. Instead of killing something by hacking it to peices like the barbarian, he trips it, blinds it and then kicks it while its down.
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Essence »

Frank wrote:But it still wouldn't be a good idea because then you've got two completely different character styles directly competing for the same class role. That's bad, because logically one of them will necessarily perform the job better and the other will be worse.


So, by that definition, we should only have one class for every potential party role. The barbarian vs. the fighter is exactly this problem, because they perform the same roles in different methods (one is stable and constant, the other goes in bouts of usefulness and bouts of medocrity).

Which is the sorcerer, and which is the wizard?


In other words, I don't buy it.
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

Is that really fun every game?


Yes.

So, by that definition, we should only have one class for every potential party role.


Your argument makes no sense, and I cannot really argue against it therefore.

Their shouldn't ever be characters who are equipment dependent and non-equipment dependent in the same role. You realy can't balance that. It's why having "spells known" can never be balanced against people who can just add spells into a spell book.

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

That's very true. Equipment is a hard balance b/c it's unique ot each campaign.
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by User3 »

Lago, I doubt this will convince you, but it certainly makes me more happy playing Monks in D&D...

Acording to Customer service (ya, I know what you're going to say),
Darrin wrote:Yes, monks gain the benefits from gauntlets under the 3.5 rules.


This was in response to my question,

Catharz wrote:In version 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons, does a Monk gain full benefit -Flurry, improved damage, etc- from wearing enchanted Gauntlets as they are, according to their description, treated exactly as unarmed strikes?


I'm not saying this actually means I'm right, or he is right =P
But I'm certainly going to pretend that we are!

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

That's what happens when you ask leading questions.

If instead you had asked "The 3.0 FAQ explicitly denies the use of the gauntlet to Monks for purposes of unarmed damage and flurry, but it has not been transfered into the 3.5 book or 3.5 FAQ, are we to assume that this is an oversight? If so, what way?"

...you almost certainly would have gotten a different answer.

Asking questions which to custserv, which as far as I can tell don't even have access to books while answering e-mail, which only present one side of an argument, garner meaningless answers.

Really.

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Essence »

Frank Trollman wrote:When you multiclass the monk into character classes which do have weapons and armor as integral portions of their growth - you start paying through the nose out of your fighter levels.

So you can have as many "monk" classes as you want, and as many "Fighter" classes as you want - but they don't really mix well. And because they don't mix well - there's no fair way to have them compete for the same party role.



You've added something minor to the list of things that needs to change to make Monks not suck, but once that thing is changed, the rest of your assertion goes away.

Translated, you're saying "Monks need to multiclass with Fighter-types better to not suck". If they are built in a way to be more multiclass-friendly with Fighter-types, then they're allowed to be damage-whores too, right?

If you bring the Monk's AC and damage up to the level of the Fighter in a character-level-dependent manner, the Monk can easily slip a few levels of Fighter in for Weapon Spec, increased HP, a fourth base attack, and three or four bonus feats -- and the Fighter can slip a few levels of Monk in for armorless AC, a decent attack if he's caught with no weapon, immunity from the first non-spell ranged attack flung at him each round, and Evasion.

At which point, the only thing you pay when you take a level of Monk is one point of BAB -- which might piss you off by delaying your next attack, but you get an additional attack right now, so what's the issue?

Does that work?
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

If they are built in a way to be more multiclass-friendly with Fighter-types, then they're allowed to be damage-whores too, right?


If they were multiclass friendly with Fighters, they'd be Fighters.

If the armor and damage of an unarmed monk was simply competitive with a Fighter in a character level dependent fashion, then the only practical difference is just that a Monk gets to save some money.

"You get a pile of gold pieces" does not normally a class make. And that's the territory you are attempting to shunt the Monk into. "Like a Fighter but with more cash in pocket at the expense of actual abilities". That sucks.

If you want it to not be a function of found weaponry and armor, it can't fill the same role as the character who is. Not if you want it to have a class schtick other than "gives you flat cash prizes" - which is a crappy and underwhelming schtick for a class to have.

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

Interesting note: you could have a gryphon in the party who had the same basic damage dealing role as a Fighter, so long as he couldn't use equipment at all.

In that case you are going the Vow of Poverty route, which has the potential to be balanced against having equipment in the usual way. You'd just slap on a racial template, get your character level related abilties and never worry about equipment ever.

That woud work fine.

What doesn't work is having characters have the "ability" to not need specific mandatory pieces of equipment, thereby "saving money". See, all the equipment comes from the DM, who is the final arbiter of what stuff you get and what stuff you can buy. So your gross monetary value and total found equipment is a variable which is at the whim of another person.

So adding a flat number to that is a futile exercise. If you get a +2 sword "for free", there is a way in which that's saving you 8315 gp, but in a much more important way that doesn't mean anything because the DM can simply throw out one more Girallon and one less level 6 NPC Fighter with a +2 sword and keep the party in exactly the same relative place. And since that level 6 NPC Fighter basically gets thrown in there to equip one of the party fighters - the DM will almost certainly do that.

When your total amount of magical items is being set by your party's perceived need for them, which it is, the ability to have a reduced actual and perceived need for magical items is a meaningless ability.

So in conclusion:

Behirs are more playable than Monks.

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Essence »

Frank wrote:If they were multiclass friendly with Fighters, they'd be Fighters.


Sure, assuming you mysteriously allow feats into your game that allow you to sacrifice BAB in order to gain immunity to poison and disease, spell resistance, etc. I don't, primarily because I think asking someone to sacrifice a point of BAB as a cost for a feat is really stupid.
But asking someone to sacrifice a point of BAB for a level's worth of Monk saves, speed, and class features certainly isn't. That's why Monks aren't Fighters -- but nothing keeps them from being easily multiclassable with them.


Frank wrote:If the armor and damage of an unarmed monk was simply competitive with a Fighter in a character level dependent fashion, then


Somewhere, Frank, you missed the whole thing about Monks needing to pay for enchantments on their fists and pants. Once you get that concept into your equation, the last two posts you've made are void, because the Monk isn't saving any appreciable amount of money.



Frank wrote:the only practical difference is just that a Monk gets to save some money.


Well, you know, there's also those little differences like, say, 5 points of BAB, flurry, immunity to poison and disease, spell resistance, running really fast, not getting bonus feats every level, and all that.


So, knowing that:
[*]The monk’s fists are enchantable as weapons
[*]The monk’s pants are enchantable as armor
[*]Quivering Palm’s DC is 10+1/2 character level+Wisdom
[*]Quivering Palm can be used once per five class levels per day
[*]Diamond Soul is based on character level rather than class level
[*]The monk gains a +1 Natural Armor bonus to AC at each level that it gains a dodge bonus to AC, and these bonuses advance by character level rather than by class level.
[*]The monk’s increased unarmed damage die is based on character level rather than class level
[*]The monk gains his choice of a threat range of 19-20 at 6th level, advancing to 18-20 and 12th and 17-20 at 18th, OR a crit multiplier of x3 at 6th level, advancing to x4 at 12th and x5 at 18th.
[*]Feats exist that allow the monk to use it’s flurry with non-monk weapons, maintain it’s class features excepting the AC-enhancing ones while wearing light armor, and while using a shield. (And these feats are available as Fighter bonus feats or as Monk bonus feats)

…does the Monk still suck?

If so, why?



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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

…does the Monk still suck?


Yes.

The Fighter's Sword is enchantable. Or he can find a new sword that just happens to be as good or better as anything he could have enchanted.

If you are putting forth a Monk who can only compete by having his fists enchanted, then you are making a character who is only balanced if the Fighter never finds a good sword. And since the Fighter is going to find a good sword, it sucks.

Unless the Monk somehow gets to cheaply enchant his fists to the extent that any Fighter could possibly find - in which case he's obviously broken, neh?

The only way this could be balanced is if the Monk were able to enchant his fists and find new ones. Possibly by having Monks be able to use a kind of "weapon" that made their unarmed strikes better. Like the "Fists" of Disgaea. That could be balanced, although this would in turn be a rather extreme form of Weapon Focus - which you yourself blasted as being overly restrictive on the character and the DM.

Nonetheless, you could have people take levels of "Swordsman", "Axeman", "Archer", or "Pugilist", which in turn would allow them to kick ass with one of the basic kinds of weapons. Then finding or enchanting versions of their type of weapon would make them kick more ass and finding versions of one of the other types would make them cry.

You could even set it up so that:

Monks got bonuses when fighting with Fist weapons (such as the "Rock Fist" that loses to paper a lot).

Paladins get bonuses when fighting with Sword weapons (including falchions and daggers).

Barbarians get bonuses when fighting with Axe weapons (including glaives and hammers).

Rangers get bonuses when fighting with Bow weapons.

Fighters get generic bonuses that apply to any weapon they happen to use, and are thus the standard for people to start off with until they find the weapon style which suits them best.

That would work, and that is what you are going towards if you demand that there be a fighting class which specializes in punching people.

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Just as an aside. There's a thread on WotC that has a post from a WotC, apparently after consulting w/ everybody who's involved, ruling that flurry does stack w/ TWF, whether using monk weapons or unarmed strikes.
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Essence »

Could you give a linky, Hanged Man?


Frank wrote:The Fighter's Sword is enchantable. Or he can find a new sword that just happens to be as good or better as anything he could have enchanted.

If you are putting forth a Monk who can only compete by having his fists enchanted, then you are making a character who is only balanced if the Fighter never finds a good sword. And since the Fighter is going to find a good sword, it sucks.



Obviously this is an inherent difference between your games and mine, Frank. I assume that the wealth per level guidelines are more-or-less adhered to in my discussions -- and if they are, then by definition, the Monk's fists and the Fighter's sword is gonna be at about the same level. If the Fighter finds a +3 longsword that he can use, it's worth full value on his WPL chart. If the Monk finds the same weapon, it's worth half value, because that's all he can sell it for. (This is BS; magical items really should sell for damn-near full value even on resale -- there's no such thing as secondhand XP -- but that's another thread.)

As long as the items are accounted for correctly, your theoretical problem is nonexistant.
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

I'm just going to have you argue with yourself for a while. Once you've come up with any kind of argument against that, I'll go back to arguing against you.

Essence wrote:What else does a Monk need to not suck?

Essence wrote:You know what else is starting to piss me off? Weapon Focus, and any other feat which punishes you for switching weapons mid-game. They suck.
Essence wrote:Because of the number of times I've seen Fighters get stuck using the same type of weapon their entire carreers, while every other character around them grabs whatever's best from the loot pile and runs with it. Having 2-5 of your feats be useless because the +5 keen speed ruin souldrinker blade is a Falchion instead of a Battleaxe is just plain sucky.

And I don't want, as the DM, to have to ask the Fighter what he has Weapon Focus in every time I make a damn loot chart, either.


OK. That's what the Monk is.

If Weapon Focus is pissing you off as a feat, why are you trying to save it as a class?

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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Here, 7 down or so

Apparently, it's part of the half-assed new multiclass w/ a monk philosophy. I don't get it personally, but there you go.


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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Essence »

Because:

A) The Monk doesn't stand much of a chance of finding a better weapon in a horde than he's already got. Monk weapons are a pretty rare thing in hordes.

But, more importantly:

If the Monk does, he can use it without hesitation, because he hasn't invested anything into his Unarmed Strike that he has not also invested into the use of Monk weapons. The Monk weapons work with every ability that the Unarmed Strike does.


Weapon Focus wouldn't suck if you didn't have to invest any variables into it, and it automatically worked with every weapon you could wield. In fact, it would kick ass. Like the Monk.
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Wrenfield »

The_Hanged_Man at [unixtime wrote:1084408268[/unixtime]] Here, 7 down or so

Apparently, it's part of the half-assed new multiclass w/ a monk philosophy. I don't get it personally, but there you go.


Why is everyone ooing and ahing at the example that Finch made? I see nothing impressive or enlightening about it whatsoeve....
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Re: What does a Monk need to not suck? (3.0)

Post by Username17 »

Essence at [unixtime wrote:1084471325[/unixtime]]Because:

A) The Monk doesn't stand much of a chance of finding a better weapon in a horde than he's already got. Monk weapons are a pretty rare thing in hordes.

But, more importantly:

If the Monk does, he can use it without hesitation, because he hasn't invested anything into his Unarmed Strike that he has not also invested into the use of Monk weapons. The Monk weapons work with every ability that the Unarmed Strike does.


Weapon Focus wouldn't suck if you didn't have to invest any variables into it, and it automatically worked with every weapon you could wield. In fact, it would kick ass. Like the Monk.


Um... this doesn't make any sense at all, and it isn't true. The Monk has a specialist list of weapons, all of which are "Fists, Nunchaku, etc.". He can use any of them without penalty, but as you pointed out they are rare. They are also interchangeable. However, the Monk gains damage bonuses with his Fist weapons which do not apply to his kama weapons.

The Monk is +4 to hit with monk weapons because he isn't proficient with anything else. And those weapons almost never happen. He's basically got a really crappy chasis and quadruple wepaon focus on a small number of rare and crappy weapons, and weapon specialization on an even smaller list of weapons (which are furthermore, generally not transferable).

Your basic problem with weapon focus was that the character sacrificed his hard earned bonuses every time he used a random weapon he found in a pile, which sucked for the player and sucked for the DM. Well, the Monk is out 2 points of bonus damage every time he finds a keen ruin kama, and out 2 points of damage and 4 points of attack bonus and his flurry ability every time he picks up a keen ruin falchion. That's the same damn thing.

The reasons why the monk sucks are legion, but here's the basic run down:

The monk is not a class. It is several classes multiclassed in a half-assed way, none of whom are afforded enough abilities even to compete at the relatively small number of levels the monk's fixed multiclassed system affords them in 20 - and several of which are probably a bad idea to include in the game in the first place.

Here they are:

The Whirlwind: Here's a class which specializes in taking a great many attack rolls at the cost of making attacks at a lower bonus. It's a shot-gun approach to combat where you roll a lot of dice. While there are circumstances when this is simply better or worse than "normal" combat - it's always more time consuming. This combat schtick is therefore probably a bad idea for inclusion as it increases the time it takes to resolve combat without actually changing anything in how combat actually occurs. The Monk in particular does not get enough of this to even balance himself out, and ends up having attacks which don't add up to as much as the standard array of attacks. This would be balanceable by introducing scaling bonus attacks and conditional bonus attacks so that you could keep up with cleave. But it probably isn't a good idea.

The Dodger: Here's a class where you get defensive bonuses instead of offensive bonuses. Idea being that if it takes you twice as long to go down, this means that over the long run you are doing twice as much damage. It's a perfectly valid combat style. The Monk's bonuses, however, replace normal defensive bonuses and as a rule are not as large. Meaning that you end up paying class features to suck ass. This class component is salvageable by just making it suck less. Make it stack with other forms of defense, and scale with level, and make it good enough that it is competitive as a total damage source with Rage or Phantasmal Killer.

The Gimmic Fighter: Here is a class which performs battlefield specialist activity in melee. Such a character hampers opponents and gives allies bonuses. Like a wizard who specializes in conjurations or illusions, this character class doesn't add a whole lot of survivability or offensive capability to himself, but adds a notable amount of survivability and offensive capability to the rest of the party. The Monk gets this only in the form of stunning fists and trips and such, and generally doesn't do this nearly well enough to matter much. This could be balanced by making these abilities scale to level and be generally a lot more useful (stunning fists should never run out, for example).

The Weapon Specialist: Here is a character who trades getting bigger bonuses for only getting the bonuses when fighting with a certain class of weapons. It doesn't really matter if this is an archer specialist, an unarmed specialist, or a spear specialist, or whatever, the class dynamics are identical. This is very problematic game mechanically. It's of course too powerful if you get any noticable benefit at all from using a weapon style that you can literally always use - but it really sucks as soon as you start finding +3 Keen Ruin Weapons that aren't your thing. The bonuses are balanced if and only if you get bigger bonuses inversely proportional to the amount those bonuses come into play. And since you don't know when designing the class how often they are going to end up with a really good Fist weapon when they are a Bow specialist or vice versa - it makes designing a balanced class intractable. I can't even imagine a way to design such a class so that it wasn't over or under powered in different games. The Monk sucks, of course, because his weapon specialist bonuses are so small that he isn't even as good as normal characters when he is using his specialist weapons - and of course his bonuses don't apply the rest of the time so he sucks even more. If you could figure out a way to balance the Weapon Specialist character at all, the Monk might be able to be balanced. Unfortunately, since he's supposed to specialize in the Fist - the one weapon you actually could reasonably expect to always use in every single combat of your entire life - I'm not sure that's really possible.

As has been said earlier, most people who want stuff off the monk list don't want the whole thing. That's unsurprising, because it's four separate combat schticks which are in no way related. Some people want to put some dodging action into a swordsman build. Some people want to run around Juggernaut Style in heavy armor soaking damage and punching people. Some people want to throw down hails of arrows or otherwise throw out huge numbers of attacks without being a naked pugilist. Some people want to do battlefield control stuff by blinding, stunning, tripping, and flanking in combat - a desire which often as not doesn't involve wanting to be able to break bricks with your head.

The monk needs to be carved up into multiple classes so that people who want the aspects they want can have them without buying into a very contrived and nonsensical archetype. Further, we need to take a good long hard look at some of the classes which are included in the Monk - because quite probably some of those pieces simply shouldn't be in D&D at all.

-Username17
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