Not impressed with the Spell domain....

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User3
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Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by User3 »

On these threads, people always wet themselves over the Spell domain and Anyspell. I don't get it.

It lets you use one spell, which gets prepared in your domain slot, at a price of a higher level spell(1-2 for a 3rd, 1-5 for a 6th).

So, you only get to use one or two low to mid level wizard spells a day. What's the big deal? Even if you find ways to cast the spell more than once a day(with a Wand, scroll, etc), you still basically get one low level and one mid level wizard spell per encounter(since your domain slot can only hold one of the prepared wizard spells, and casting it in combat with a casting time of 15 minutes is not happening, and wasting an action for an spell-like ability or activation is dumb), and you've invested stuff to get it.

Is there some totally pimp cheese I'm missing?
Username17
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by Username17 »

Is there some totally pimp cheese I'm missing?


Yep.

1. Qualifies you for Hexer, and just about every other obscure class along those lines.

2. Single Handedly puts every single spell on your list.

3. When you restore it with a Pearl of Power you get it back either as the arcane spell or as Any Spell to be taken as another spell.

4. In the PGtF it is available as one of the bonus spells on the Initiate of Mystra List, which means you can also prepare it into your normal slots.

It means that you can slip any spell you want into your multi-bufftastic build. And with a little work you can actually put every spell you want into your multi-bufftastic build.

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

It's a free Limited Wish. Worst non-broken spell in the book, except for Find Traps - for the opposite reason.
User3
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by User3 »

1. Ok, sure. Are we really pretending that there are any good wizard/cleric PrCs?

2. How's that? How did you get that interpretation. Like Limited wish, Wish, or Miracle,it doesn't put anything on your list. It just lets you break the spell list rule for a single spell at a time. So?

3. So? Pearls of Power for 3rd and 6th level spells are expensive, and difficult to create(17th level caster). we're only taking about casting it a few extra times a day.

4. So? With a casting time of 15 minutes, I'm not really impressed. You just spent a higher level slot for a single lower level spell that you have to use before you can do it again. Even if you reduce the casting time somehow, you still have to keep a spellbook around(unless you worship Boccob, I guess).

I'm not convinced that this elaborate system of ropes and pulleys has a lot of power in it.
Username17
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by Username17 »

Every so often the designers will get a rush of brains to the head and figure out that a 4th level Assassin spell is actually an activity for a 14th level character to be using. And so on and so forth.

A Cleric with Greater Anyspell can cast Sniper's Eye at a lower level than the intended casters. It's just one more thing to stack into a Cleric Archer build. Actually it's about 5 more things to stack into Cleric Archer builds.

In theory it's not all that bad, but in practice the Cleric does everything very very well. The few things he can't do are his only limitations, and Anyspell takes even that limitation away.

Remember, the Cleric is already in the territory where he can out-fighter the fighter while out-wizarding the wizard. The Wizard has only a few tricks up his sleave that the cleric can't match to justify his existence. And with Anyspell, that justification is out the door.

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Wrenfield
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by Wrenfield »

Also, Anyspell lets you call in *ANY* arcane spell, not just Wiz/Sorc spells. So if you want a spell that only Bards, Assassins, or Hexblades can cast, you can get them too. One of my faves - the Greater Anyspell spell can call in a Bard-only 5th level Improvisation spell (Song & Silence). Which a Cleric can break all sorts of way either via Turning or archery/melee mechanics. Especially when added to the multiple Karma Bead + Orange Ioun Stone + Ankh of Ascension hootenany that Clerics love to have fun with.

Add in the fact that a Cleric can now cast Teleport (without the Travel domain), Magic Jar (without an MoS dip), Evard's Black Tentacles (always good), Mislead (Bardic), Fabricate, Major Creation, Permanency (nice with your caster level increases), & Rary's Telepathic Bond ... all awesome and neccessary Mage-only spells. And now, your party can effectively get by without a Mage.

Keep in mind, the Spell domain also gives you Limited Wish as a 7th level domain spell. More versatility!

Being a Cleric of Mystra is the definitive power play for a Cleric in the Forgotten Realms ... along with the traditional Elven Archer Cleric.
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Wren's dead on. Awesome spells. IIRC, one of them lets you use Contingency.

AGain, I can't think of a good use a cleric w/ Anyspell can make w/ Limited Wish. W/ the divine list, every arcane spell, and domain access, I can't figure out what Limited Wish gets you, except a loss of XP. Wren, what would you use it for?
User3
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by User3 »

This is still a single 1-3 spell for level 5+ casters, and an additional 1-5 spell or 11+ casters.

To get more per day, or more at a time, you need to jump through some major hoops.

And 7+ spells are right out.

And you need to have a spellbook with the spell you want, since you can't research it(unless you worship Boccob, and have that nifty relic).

Tell me the sheer amount of work it worth it. Or that its any good in a combat/encounter situation.
Username17
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by Username17 »

Tell me the sheer amount of work it worth it.


OK... it's worth it.

In the standard D&D game, magical writings are purchasable - which is supposedly how Wizards get access to new spells. A Cleric can also purchase these, and then just laugh and laugh and laugh.

Most of these spells (Permanency, Magic Jar, Teleport) don't really need to be cast more than once a day - or even once a day.

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

K, it's about synergy. A lot of balance comes from clerics not having easy access to X spell. For example, you think cleric archers are bad, try a melee cleric w/ a little Firbolg in them, or Stone Giant if you don't use MM II.

Also, you can cherry pick the most uber spells. A cleric doesn't need that many arcane spells, but this lets them have it.
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by User3 »

It is somewhat like the Archer cleric thing: Archer clerics are really powerful. However, their greatest strength is that at the end of the day, they can decide if they want to be an archer *or* a cleric. Hell, or a Fighter! Huge versatility.

Initiate of Mystra lets them decide if they want to be a Cleric, Archer, Fighter, or Wizard. The only thing stopping them from taking over every single party role is Mystra not granting access to the Trickery domain. And with Improvisation and Voice of the dragon, they hardly even need that.

And as The Hanged Man said, you can cherry pick. You can be an Improved invisible Draconically polymorphed (5th level spell!) Persistant Rightious might/Divine power/Divine favored Cleric with Greater magic weapon on your bow and Spikes on your staff. And hell, you can be doing all of that from inside an Antimagic field!
User3
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by User3 »

So the only argument people have is that is makes the cleric archer build more powerful? I'm sorry, but the cleric archer build was way overpowered before this Domain came along. With or without the feat, they are not more or less powerful(since they blow most of their spellcasting on buffs anyway).

And the cleric already out wizards the wizard in every possible way, so that argument is moot too.

Two spells per day of low to mid levels does not break a normal build, and doesn't add much to the power of a cheese build either.
Wrenfield
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by Wrenfield »

K wrote:Two spells per day of low to mid levels does not break a normal build, and doesn't add much to the power of a cheese build either.
K, combine it with the Initiate of Mystra feat. That's where it gets brokety-brake-broke.

Hanged Man wrote:I can't figure out what Limited Wish gets you, except a loss of XP. Wren, what would you use it for?


I'm not a huge Limited Wish fan when it comes to Wizards (I don't play Sorcs). But for a Clerical 7th level domain spell, it's just pure candy for REALLY HARD scenarios.

I use LW only for critical life-or-death scenarios. It's a "get out of jail for free" spell, with a little XP cost added on. Great for defensive, transportation, or fix-it spells. Here is what I have simulated with LW in 3.5:

1. Raise Dead
2. Revivify (MiniHB - similar to Raise Dead)
3. Teleport
4. Plane Shift (Clerical version)
5. Break Enchantment
6. Greater Dispel Magic

**

A neat trick for a high level Cleric with the Spell domain is to cast Limited Wish (simulating Contingency). Make the Contingency state that if you die, Revivify (from MiniHB) is cast upon yourself. Then cast LW again (simulating Contingency again). Make the 2nd Contingency state if Revivify is cast upon yourself, a Heal spell kicks in.

Yes, this costs 600 XP and 1000 GP of diamond dust. But its worth it because you can automatically recover from death at no extra expense or actions to your party. And at high levels, the GP cost is negligible and the XP loss is manageable, especially compared to Raise Dead's level loss. You lose no levels or CON, and you are healed back up to your max HP's, and given your normal compliment of remaining spells that you had prior to death.

The unkillable Cleric of Mystra ... nice. Oh, and a few other FRCS deities get the Spell domain too - Savras, Thoth, etc. But only Mystra Clerics get the crazy-uber Initiate of Mystra feat. Which makes fiddling around in an Anti-Magic Shell oh so sexy and delightful.
MrWaeseL
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by MrWaeseL »

Don't you also need a revivify for that? (Or is it a cleric spell? I don't know it...)
Wrenfield
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by Wrenfield »


Mr. W. wrote:Don't you also need a revivify for that? (Or is it a cleric spell? I don't know it...)
It's a 5th level Cleric spell in the MiniHB. So as a Cleric, you can cast that as a Contingency spell companion with no problem. Revivify is Raise Dead without any penalties or loss to the creature brought back to life (no level loss or CON loss) ... except for you have to reach your target within 1 round or the spell criteria cannot be met. And you have the 1000 gp of diamond dust to deal with.
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Wrenfield at [unixtime wrote:1084917093[/unixtime]]
K wrote:Two spells per day of low to mid levels does not break a normal build, and doesn't add much to the power of a cheese build either.
K, combine it with the Initiate of Mystra feat. That's where it gets brokety-brake-broke.

Hanged Man wrote:I can't figure out what Limited Wish gets you, except a loss of XP. Wren, what would you use it for?


I'm not a huge Limited Wish fan when it comes to Wizards (I don't play Sorcs). But for a Clerical 7th level domain spell, it's just pure candy for REALLY HARD scenarios.

I use LW only for critical life-or-death scenarios. It's a "get out of jail for free" spell, with a little XP cost added on. Great for defensive, transportation, or fix-it spells. Here is what I have simulated with LW in 3.5:

1. Raise Dead
2. Revivify (MiniHB - similar to Raise Dead)
3. Teleport
4. Plane Shift (Clerical version)
5. Break Enchantment
6. Greater Dispel Magic


:thumb: Good ideas. I have a hard time memorizing the spell, though b/c of the XP cost.
RandomCasualty
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by RandomCasualty »

The problem I have with revivify is that it requires a great deal of metagame knowledge. Unless you've got a status spell up, you should be wasting revivifies left and right any time a companion goes to negative hp, because you have no idea if he's dead or not.

The spell basically assumes you know your companion's hit point total and if he's dead or merely dying.
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by Essence »

???

People at negative hit points are called "dying" for a reason -- "dying" is seperate from "dead", and there's several basically easy ways to tell if a person is "dying" or "dead". If they're still bleeding, breathing, if they still have a heartbeat, if the spells that target 'living creatures' are still active on them...they're not "dead" yet.
RandomCasualty
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by RandomCasualty »

Yeah, but it'd take a standard action to tell if someone is dead or not. Since revivify requires you cast it within 1 round, that means you have to basically guess when you cast the spell.

You won't automatically know someone is alive just by looking at them, unless you have a status spell or something else like that.

But by default you would have to guess if he's dead or merely dying.
Username17
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Re: Not impressed with the Spell domain....

Post by Username17 »

if the spells that target 'living creatures' are still active on them...they're not "dead" yet.


Not true, actually. If a spell's target becomes illegal, the spell still operates. That's why Animate Objects works at all. Otherwise it would shut off as soon as it turns on because it only affects objects and turns the target into a creature.

Your creature-only spells persist until their durations end when you die and stop being a creature.

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