Questions on Illusions

[User3]

Now, most people houserule that an illusion reacts to stuff around it as long as the mage is concentrating, and that it doesn't react it it still has time on its duration and its not a "script"-based or programmed illusion. Then, people who interact with it get saves.

Interacting is usually defined as "when your actions invloved soing somehitng that show the illusion is insubstantial, or you are taking actions because of the illusion."

I was thinking...if you readied an action to cause an illusion to react to one person or event, could you argue that the person doesn't get a Save? Your illusion would be perfect, as long as you didn't slip up and let the someone do something that showed that the illusion wasn't real and had missing elements(like a fire with no thermal aspect, or a warrior who fought with no sound).

Possibly you would get saves to make the illusion react quickly enough?

[User3]

Ok, from now on I'm editing in Word.

I meant "doing something thats shows that the illusion is insubstantial or not real"

[Wrenfield]

1083942895[/unixtime]]I was thinking...if you readied an action to cause an illusion to react to one person or event, could you argue that the person doesn't get a Save? Your illusion would be perfect, ...

How do you interpret that it would be "perfect" based on the rules?

...as long as you didn't slip up and let the someone do something that showed that the illusion wasn't real and had missing elements(like a fire with no thermal aspect, or a warrior who fought with no sound).

Preventing a target creature from interacting with a figment is difficult. You would need to have intimate knowledge of the specific creatures fears and/or phobias of said target ... perhaps gleaned from a Detect Thoughts spell ... in order to have the target avoid interaction.

I often don't care about whether a target interacts with a given figment. In fact, it's a good thing. Because it wastes valuable actions and time to carefully analyze a figment via "interaction". Meanwhile, my party can beat the snot out of the creature in question. So the payoff for a Silent image or Minor Image in that regards, is well worth it.

[User3]

Most people houserule illusions heavily.

They count interactions as any time to see an illusion as the first save, and then if you are fighting an illusionary creature, every round you fight it you get to make another save, with an automatic save if you are faced with proof that something is not real(like walking through A an illusionary wall).
------------------


I would say that a readied action(which takes place at the same instant as someone else's actions) would be needed to prevent a lag in your illusion. No lag, and your illusion wouldn'y have anything for someone to spot as unreal.

[Username17]

You actually can't ready an action to do anything to your illusions. It takes a standard action to maintain concentration at all, which leaves you with no actions left to ready anything with.

Unless you are hasted, or in some other way get a partial action - in which case you'd be good to go and could probably have your illusion hop out of the way if you wanted to waste your whole hasted turn for some reason.

Now, despite people's house rules, the actual rules are pretty simple:

You get a save if you physically interact, or if you take an action to carefully study it.

So if you score a hit on an illusion (illusions have really crappy ACs), you get a save. If you search an area which includes part of the illusion, you get a save.

If you just see it, you get no save.

-Username17

[Wrenfield]

If you just see it, you get no save.

Which complicates interacting with spells like Ghost Sounds (0th level cantrip).

You get a save if you physically interact, or if you take an action to carefully study it.

So if you score a hit on an illusion (illusions have really crappy ACs), you get a save. If you search an area which includes part of the illusion, you get a save.

Physical interaction is somewhat subjective in the amount of time or actions spent is taken by those affected by it. Depends on how squeamish the target is when interacting with the illusion. Or how vigorous and assertive the probing analysis is. Because sometimes targets will not attempt to "attack" a figment, but maybe poke it from afar, throw stuff at it, or touch-&-run a figment.

I think the funniest and most effective use of figments are against mindless undead, constructs (like golems), oozes, plants, low INT monsters, etc. They just don't have the mental faculties to analyze or discern. Although that can be compensated for with certain special senses or cuning instincts and whatnot.

[Username17]

Which complicates interacting with spells like Ghost Sounds (0th level cantrip).

Sure does. While you can study and/or stand in the point of origin, for most practical purposes you get no save against that spell.

I think the funniest and most effective use of figments are against mindless undead, constructs (like golems), oozes, plants, low INT monsters, etc.

Heck yes. Skeletons don't claw their way through stone walls unless ordered to. So if you cast a silent image and no evil cleric is around, they are pretty much screwed.

-Username17

[User3]

If you readied an action to cast on someone else's turn, could you prevent them from interacting with your illusion, since your standard action to concentrate takes place on their turn?

[Username17]

If you readied an action to cast on someone else's turn, could you prevent them from interacting with your illusion, since your standard action to concentrate takes place on their turn?

In that you could wait to cast it until they had moved or something, you could prevent them from interacting with it that turn, but you also wouldn't affect their action, rendering it pointless.

Thereafter, a readied action sets your action to just before their move, so your concentration action happens or not before they act.

So no.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

Funny!

On the other hand, mindless undead and constructs ignore many illusions, as well - b/c they don't care.

[RandomCasualty]

I don't know how in the hell you can have an illusionary sound in the first place. Sound doesn't exist physically. It's very existence is only known by the fact that you can hear it.

I mean really, the only difference I can think of is that illusory sound doesn't create vibrations in objects, so you can't use an illusory singer to crack a glass with a high note.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Let's back up a step. Sound, in a way, does exist physically - it's just a vibration in the air, more or less. It only becomes "sound" when somebody sees it, but it exists.

You can't use an illusion to do anything in D&D. Figments (sound or vision) can't have a real world effect. They can only impact the world through causing creatures to act differently b/c the illusion exists.

[Wrenfield]

On the other hand, mindless undead and constructs ignore many illusions, as well - b/c they don't care.

But if you enclose them in a figment of a stone box, they are rarely if ever programmed to immediately bash their way out of such circumstances. So they just stand there, "stuck" in the box and not moving (or meandering aimlessly within the confines).

So while your army pounds on them with missile weapons (without retaliation mind you), that seemingly appear through little temporary holes in the stone box, they can't do jack squat about it. They just die, subject to the fact they are trapped in a stone box with with arrows and stones that appear through weird little slits that open and close almost instantaneously. It's beyond the comprehension, cognitive scope, and defensive/offensive programming of most construcs and undead. And its a funny-as-hell way to shut down golems..

Let's back up a step. Sound, in a way, does exist physically - it's just a vibration in the air, more or less. It only becomes "sound" when somebody sees it, but it exists.

Yeah, but rare is the creature with extreme sensory organs that can detect and analyze the minutaie of air vibrations of that magnitude. So the high, vast majority of all creatures are done in by the spell.

You can't use an illusion to do anything in D&D. Figments (sound or vision) can't have a real world effect. They can only impact the world through causing creatures to act differently b/c the illusion exists.

Again, the beauty of figments is their stalling effect. Their ability to soak up enemy actions. And when a spellcaster consistently casts stuff like Acid Fogs and Silent Images ... he can get a reputation or enemy uncertainty of not knowing what the hell he is casting at any given time. Making his Silent Image spells as effective as Acid Fogs in many regards. And that's smart resource management to be able to use a 1st level spell in such a manner.

My current Wizard is a Conjurer. But he claims to be an Illusionist. And his fame throughout the locale is as an Illusionist. And as a result, people fear his every spell may or may not be an Illusion. Which makes him that much more dangerous...

[RandomCasualty]

1083964795[/unixtime]]Let's back up a step. Sound, in a way, does exist physically - it's just a vibration in the air, more or less. It only becomes "sound" when somebody sees it, but it exists.

Well, the issue is that visual illusion represents a physical object of some kind. Audio illusion doesn't actually represent anything. Thus there really isn't actually any way to prove that the sound isn't actually real.

[The_Hanged_Man]

It's a physical object, but it can't do anything. Visual is no more or less real than audio. It just is. It's magic.

[The_Hanged_Man]

And its a funny-as-hell way to shut down golems..

Most golems are immune to magic - including illusions. They have infinite SR. But it's still a funny trick for undead. I'll remember the Skeleton-in-a-box! Kudos!

Yeah, but rare is the creature with extreme sensory organs that can detect and analyze the minutaie of air vibrations of that magnitude. So the high, vast majority of all creatures are done in by the spell.

Why would the creature's sonic sensitivity matter? Either the ghost sound is interacted with by hearing it (in which case you get a save regardless of sensitive hearing), or hearing isn't interaction (in which case you only get a save by "studying"). "Studying" doesn't depend on anything, you just blow some time studying. What am I missing here?

My current Wizard is a Conjurer. But he claims to be an Illusionist. And his fame throughout the locale is as an Illusionist. And as a result, people fear his every spell may or may not be an Illusion. Which makes him that much more dangerous...

Even more fun than the illusionist who pretends to be a conjurer!

[Username17]

Most golems are immune to magic - including illusions. They have infinite SR.

Back up a bit - Spell Resistance doesn't do shit to illusions.

That's what "Spell Resistance: No." means.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

Hmm. You're right - for some illusions. That's interesting, never noticed before.

[Wrenfield]

Seems to me, the majority of gamers have a challenging time differentiating the rules nuances of figments, phantasms, patterns, shadows, and glamors. It really pays to read pg. 173 of the 3.5 PHB and know these types backwards and forwards.

One or all of the figment family of Silent Image, Minor Image, and Major Image are absolutely essential spells for any Mage to know. As Frank pointed out, the SR=No of figments are extremely valuable. There are some effective Wizard archetypes out there that use no Spell Focus or Spell Penetration feats at all in their build - and just cast Conjurations (which are often "no save / no SR") and figments. Then they can load up on their feat slots on *good* feats (and no, that does not include the vast majority of the sucktastic metamagick feats) that vastly improve their versatility.

***

I read in a different post in here how Frank uses the Shades spell (9th level) to simulate a low-cost version of Trap the Soul - which is very effective, very cheap, and very cool.

You can also use the Shades spell with the Dragon Ally spells in the Draconomicon book. By actually blackmailing the "shadowy substanced" dragon that got its genesis from the Shades spell, you can probably blackmail the creature to serve you forever during the bargaining process of the spell. After all, he can turn you down, but then he dissapears into nothingness ... in essence, he *dies* if he turns down your offer of eternal servitude (for free and at no cost to you). Although I need to look more into the fine-tuning legality metaphysics of the spell some more.

And, you can custom make that shade-made Dragon to any size or class of Dragon you wish as long as the HD cap is respected for the spell that is being simulated.

[Username17]

Seems to me, the majority of gamers have a challenging time differentiating the rules nuances of figments, phantasms, patterns, shadows, and glamors.

As do the designers. Note that Silence is still a Glamer, despite the fact that it stops sonic attacks (while a Glamer could not).

Silence functions in all ways like 3e Darkness, which means that it is an Evocation in every practical way.

-Username17

[Wrenfield]

As a big fan of figments, I might add you really don't ever need anything more than Major Image (3rd level spell), even at higher levels. Silent Image will provide effective figments that are silent, Minor Image will provide effective figments with a sound element. Major Image's thermal element is nice, but not neccessary - it's strongpoint comes from the Concentration +3 round duration. Giving you 3 rounds to do other Wizardly stuff while your Image is doing its job. After Major Image, your spell slots are better served with other spells than Persistent Image, etc.

My Harper Mage Wizard uses his free Extend Spell usages per day frequently on the Major Image spells - in effect getting Concentration +6 round durations. Which is good multi-tasking capability and usually strong enough to last till the end of most combats.

You get a lot of bang for the buck for those 1st 3 figment spells - from play levels of 1 through 20.