Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

If you haden't noticed, my original post was stating that it wasn't that hard to get a build that effectively 'combined wisdom and charisma' already. Not that it was a *broken* build. I prefer to stay away from the broken ones, as they tend to ruin most games.


Human Monk 11/Paladin 4/Shiba protector 1/Fist of raziel 4.

Str: Doesn't matter.
Dex: The higher the better.
Con: The higher the better.
Int: Well, no body wants to be stupid, but this one dosen't matter either.
Wis: Max. Even in a weighted point buy.
Cha: He dosen't have to be 'Mr. Personality.'

Feats: Serenity, Intuitive attack, Expertise, (If using UA,

take with trait: weak fortitude) Alertness, (If using UA,
take with trait: weak will) Iron will, Servant of the
heavens, other feats.

With a periapt of wisdom +6 and a starting score of 18 and all others 10, you end up with...
Saves~
F:17+Con+Wisdom (-3 weak fortitue, if used)
R: 9+Dex+Wisdom
W: 11+Wisdom+Wisdom (-3 weak will, if used)
=23/18/26.
Don't forget Evasion and Improved evasion.

BAB: +16
For melee attacks, this means
+34/+34/+34/+29/+24/+19, minus power attacks

Deal 1d10+9+(1 or 1d4) damage per hit, plus power attack

Throwing in Smite evil (6/day), you gain an additional +9 to attack and +20 to damage.

AC isn't that stellar, of course. 10+9+2 (+Magic circle)=21 (23).

Decent skills, including Tumble, and some ranks in Diplomacy.

This character gets a lot of freedom when it comes to items. The only really vital ones are Adamantine Gauntlets (preferably with Wrathful healing) and the periapt of wisdom. Some robes to fill up the armor slot, and something to give flight are also nice. This character makes a very good skirmisher, combining the Smite with his mobility in precise strikes.


Mod Edit: Formatting

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Deal 1d10+9+(1 or 1d4) damage per hit


Enough said. That's the damage of a CR 5 opponent, not a real 20th level character. Also, no way in hell the smites do that much damage. It runs off of class level, so the damage is Cha +5.

What the hell's with the Serenity feat and the UA stuff? Does the Serenity feat add wisdom to saves and a bunch of other crap? Because I am not seeing where you are getting such a high smite to-hit bonus If so, then a druid or a cleric would eat this character alive.

AC isn't that stellar, of course. 10+9+2


Your AC would actually be like 25 (from the monk levels), 26 if there's a monk belt. But seriously. An AC of 26 at character level 20 is literally lethal. Even a wizard who never ever polymorphs does better than this. I'm sure there's some more items you can throw on top of that, but this is what we're looking at right now.

The only really vital ones are Adamantine Gauntlets (preferably with Wrathful healing) and the periapt of wisdom.


Adamantine gauntlets don't stack with your monk unarmed damage. It's in the FAQ and everything.

And wrathful healing... once again, monk supporters have posted something that would completely wreck the game if put in the hands of a real character class rather than a class that barely averages 20 points of damage as a 20th level character at the top of his game.
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

You'd be better off ignoring the monk AC, and using mithral chain shirt +5 and mithral shield +5 (better make it spiked). Isn't that the point of the paladin levels?

Add a longsword and TWF, and maybe you'd be doing some decent damage. I can't remember, does flurry stack w/ normal weapons?
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

It stacks with Monk weapons. Since I haven't bought Dragon in ages, I have no idea if that class adds things like Longsword to the list of Monks weapons or not.

Of course, it's also been said that flurry is usually not worth the effort anyway.

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I'm not asking intelligent questions today. Can you get your full iterative attacks w/ a longsword, then get your flurry attacks unarmed (like w/ natural weapons?)
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

The_Hanged_Man at [unixtime wrote:1083711803[/unixtime]]I'm not asking intelligent questions today. Can you get your full iterative attacks w/ a longsword, then get your flurry attacks unarmed (like w/ natural weapons?)


No.

It is arguable that you can get your full compliment of natural wepaon attacks (as secondary attacks, so they do less damage) and then get your full compliment of unarmed attacks as manufactured weapon attacks.

However, if you get attacks with a longsword, your kick is just an off-hand weapon and only grants one attack.

Note that if you have multiweapon fighting, you can claim one additional off-hand attack for every weapon you have. When you have a sword, some armor spikes and a boot blade, the number of off hand weapons you can claim at that point is in your guess as good as mine territory.

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

Lago_AM3P, I never cease to be amazed at your ability to flame things you (admittedly) don't understand. Good job! :D

If youre interested in actually gaining an understanding of what you're talking about, I'll be happy to provide the needed information.

An please, none of the 'This build is so weak... Oh wait, this build is so broken' nonsense. There is certainly room for characters that fall somewhere between Rage mages and Ur priest Demonbinders.

In addition, i searched the entire 3.5 FAQ and didn't find anything about Gauntlets. Perhaps your gauntlet rules are outdated, from 3.0. If they are in the 3.5 FAQ, can you give me the page #?

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

It is not rementioned in the 3.5 FAQ - it also doesn't really have to be. A gauntlet is a weapon - and it's not listed under the special monk weapons. If you equip one, you aren't using a special monk weapon, so you can't really do jack.

Lago is totally right. Your gauntlet/monk damage doesn't work together.

And your whole build is kind of lame.

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083737714[/unixtime]]It is not rementioned in the 3.5 FAQ - it also doesn't really have to be. A gauntlet is a weapon - and it's not listed under the special monk weapons. If you equip one, you aren't using a special monk weapon, so you can't really do jack.

Lago is totally right. Your gauntlet/monk damage doesn't work together.


Here is what the SRD has to say:
Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.


Let me summarize: A gauntlet is exactly the same as an unarmed strike, excepting the fact that it automatically deals lethal damage. And as a side effect of the possibility of making one Masterwork, it can be enchanted. End of story. It dosen't *have* to be listed as a Monk special weapon, because Unarmed strikes are automatically monk weapons.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083737714[/unixtime]]And your whole build is kind of lame.

-Username17


What precisely makes the whole build so lame? Do you think that Smite evil is a stupid mechanic, or that stacking the same ability mod to an attribute more then once is broken?
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Lago_AM3P »

If youre interested in actually gaining an understanding of what you're talking about, I'll be happy to provide the needed information.

An please, none of the 'This build is so weak... Oh wait, this build is so broken' nonsense. There is certainly room for characters that fall somewhere between Rage mages and Ur priest Demonbinders.


No. That's the entire point why monks suck so much. They have to add friggin' crazy-nuts overpowered features, like something that adds a second stat bonus to saves or a class that gives you an unnamed bonus to attack and damage at the cost of a point of BAB, and they're STILL not as good as core fighters.

Monks have no goddamn potential at all. The chassis is so inferior that even in the Sacred Fist PrC I posted where it plundered the best of monk class abilities and got to use real honest-to-god armor and cleric spells and they still weren't as good as a core cleric. Even bards can pick up stupid stuff that has a little bit of mojo--like there's this spell in Song and Silence that will add a 1d4+1 to a friend's save DC and there's also a feat in BoED that actually makes the bonuses from bard song almost worthwhile.

Lago_AM3P, I never cease to be amazed at your ability to flame things you (admittedly) don't understand. Good job!


Listen here, spanky:

Let me summarize: A gauntlet is exactly the same as an unarmed strike, excepting the fact that it automatically deals lethal damage. And as a side effect of the possibility of making one Masterwork, it can be enchanted. End of story. It dosen't *have* to be listed as a Monk special weapon, because Unarmed strikes are automatically monk weapons.


Here's what the honest-to-God 3.0E book has to say on gauntlets.

Gauntlet: These metal gloves protect your hands and let you deal normal damage with unarmed strikes rather than subdual damage. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

Here's what the honest-to-God 3.0E FAQ says on gauntlets.

Are gauntlets and spiked gauntlets considered weapons? Could a monk wearing a pair of gauntlets attack and still apply her unarmed attack bonus and unarmed damage? Could the monk use her class abilities that require successful unarmed strikes, such as her stun ability, while wearing gauntlets? How much damage would a monk wearing a pair of gauntlets deal? If the gauntlets had an enhancement bonus (such as a +2 enhancement bonus) or a special ability (such as flaming burst), would a monk wearing these gauntlets gain any benefit? Can gauntlets even have weapon enhancement bonuses or weapon special abilities?

Both gauntlets and spiked gauntlets are weapons (that ’s why they are both listed on Table 7–4 in the Player’s Handbook). A pair of gauntlets or spiked gauntlets can be magically enhanced, just as any other weapon can. Although a nonmonk wearing a pair of gauntlets is still
considered unarmed (see the next two questions), a monk
wearing gauntlets is using a weapon. A monk cannot use any of her special unarmed attack abilities (unarmed damage, stunning attack, and so on) when using a weapon. A monk can use her unarmed attack rate with a special monk weapon, but gauntlets are not a special monk weapon. A monk wearing gauntlets does not provoke attacks of opportunity when striking an armed foe
with gauntlets. The monk deals the same damage as any other character of her size (1d3 points of damage for a Medium-size character). The monk would get the benefits of any magical properties the gauntlets might have.



Now, from the actual honest-to-god 3.5E FAQ:

This version of the D&D FAQ uses the 3.5 revision of the core rules and also contains questions covering material from a variety of books (such as Savage Species and Epic Level Handbook). If you haven’t yet adopted the revision, don’t worry—in the rare instance that the answer is different between 3rd edition and the 3.5 revision, we’ll bring it to your attention with a call out that says “Revision Alert.”


Now the gauntlet entry from the 3.5E rulebook.

Gauntlet: This metal glove protects your hands and lets you deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.



Holy crap! Does this mean that the gauntlets actually don't do a damn thing for monks?

The answer is yes.

What precisely makes the whole build so lame? Do you think that Smite evil is a stupid mechanic, or that stacking the same ability mod to an attribute more then once is broken?


Smite evil isn't stupid; it's probable that a good portion of your combat will be against people.

It's just that it scales really poorly. The first level gives you a pretty big bonus to hit and a point of damage. The next 3 or more levels adds 1 point of damage each level until you pick up a charisma booster; then it gets a point of attack. However, since this character is a monk, I doubt that they're doing that.

Smiting is awesome when you get to add it from different stuff and actually use it for attack instead of trying to get your mojo from it directly; for example, adding together a smite infidel, the templar's smite, and smite good.

No, it's just really sad that even when you max out an ability so hard and have it add to your saves, AC, attack, and damage, you still come up with just an average character. At the end of your career, adding +12 to a lot of relevant stuff is pretty good, until we factor in the BAB hits (the saves are just out-and-out broken; imagine such crap on a cleric or a druid and see the problem). Then there's the fact that we haven't gotten any relevant class features at all towards combat; and it's not like a level of barbarian and a level of frenzied berserker can't match that gigantic bonus to attack and damage.
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by fbmf »

Just a friendly reminder to everyone to keep it civil, please.

Game On,
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

Heck, with a level of Barbarian, a level of Berserk, and a level of Frenzied Berserker, you'd do way more damage.

And you'd be doing it with real weapons instead of having to get amulets of mighty fists.

By the way, anyone else really annoyed about how the way WotC is throwing around "new edition" every time it requires us to spend money and "backwards compatability" every time it would reqire them to do any work? The FAQ inheritance crap is one of the lamest ideas ever. They could just copy/paste all the answers which apply to 3.5 into the 3.5 FAQ. It would take like half an hour. They are a corporation, they have people who work for full 8 hour days.

What precisely makes the whole build so lame?


It requires you to use house rules to power it up in the first place, and you can do better in terms of damage, saves, attacks, and armor class, just by having a multiclassed warrior with the rules as written.

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1083745439[/unixtime]]What precisely makes the whole build so lame?


There's two things that really lame this build.

Let's start w/ saves. You get really, really good saves. Which is nice, except a plaine, ol' core Monk has really, really great saves. The extra saves you're getting aren't adding very much in real utitily.

Let's say you have a +25 fortitude save w/ your build. That's nice. But what's the highest DC you're likely to see? If you see save DC higher than 22 more than 1% of the time in a core game, I'd be surprised.

So those nice saves add virtually nothing to your power. The class feature you've built around doesn't increase your power. It's like ordering a pizza after you've been in a pie-eating contest.

Second, to get those great saves, you sacrificed: AC, damage potential, and a bunch of secondary powers.

So, here's what your build does. It gets rid of AC, damage potential (BAB and damage), and a bunch of cool effects, to get a high save that (1) isn't all that great; and (2) to the extent it is great, isn't all that useful.

It's a bad build. An interesting non-core save smackdown (if you worked it a little harder), but that's about it.
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

Depends upon whether you use 3rd edition Saves or 3.5 Saves.

If you use 3.5's (or 3rd edition's Deities and Demigods') rule that saves automatically fail on a 1 - then no save bonus is ever really all that great. If, however, you play 3rd edition as written, where a save is a form of check and therefore does not auto fail on a 1 - then there is no save value which is ever enough.

Remember, failing a save means that you die, especially at high levels. If you fail on 3 numbers, this means that you are only going to be able to, on average, fight for 2/3 as long as if you fail on 2 numbers. When you compare to the 9/10 as long you can fight when failing on 10 numbers over 9 numbers - it becomes clear that the more saves you have, the bigger a bonus each point of save is proportionately - it's like AC in that respect.

But heck, this is a 20th level character. That means that an enemy spellcaster is going to be firing off DCs which are 19 + Stat Mod + Bonuses. +25 isn't high enough!

Let's look at some CR 20 monsters you'll be facing, and tell me if that Wil Save is "too high":

Crawling Head: Cacophony DC 24; Wail of the Banshee DC 26.
Gray Linnorn: Poison DC 21; Implosion DC 23
NPC Wizard: Wail of the Banshee DC 29

I'm just not seeing these saves as being too high. You can get them higher, and if you want a rope-a-dope build, you're going to need to.

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I don't disagree with you, but I'm looking at it the marginal benefit - not the absolute benefit. Even in 3.0, high saves are great - but only to a point. Once you get to +25 or so, there's hardly any benefit to going higher. Yeah, some save DC's will be high enough that it'll matter. But the vast, vast majority of saves will be automatic - even at +20. So, yes, there is a benefit, but it's very small.

Pulling numbers out of my ass (that seem roughly accurate, though), let's say you get 90% of the benefit by getting to +20. You get another 9% by getting to +25. Raising saves above +25 are only helping in that 1% of the time. And I think that's a high estimate - it's probably more like .01% of the time.

So, even if a 1 isn't automatic failure, there's still little point in getting saves higher than +25. The relative benefit of getting higher saves is very low.
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

The absolute, bare bones, complete minimum Save DC on a 9th level effect is 23. 10 + 9 + 4 (stat mod on a 19). If you are a 20th level character, even enemies three levels lower than you have 9th level spells. The absolute, bare bones minimum Save DC on an 8th level effect is 22. 10 + 8 + 4 (stat mod on an 18). As a 20th level character, there are enemies five levels lower than you who have 8th level spells. Let's put that into perspective:

Monsters who throw 8th level spells and thus hve a save DC of 22+ are horde monsters to 20th level characters.

If the save DC is 22, and you have a +20, you fail 10% of the time. On average, about 10 of them will take you down. If your save bonus is +21, you fail only 5% of them time and will go down under 20 of them on average. So if you are a 20th level character, and have a +20 bonus, you will survive twice as long against the horde monsters of your level if you gain another point of save bonus.

Saves don't stop being useful for a non-epic character until you hit the +29 range - and don't stop being useful to epic characters at all.

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

If the save DC is 22, and you have +20, you only fail on a 1. You win ties.

Frank, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I never said saves stop "being useful." Of course they are. But once you get over +20, there's not a lot of marginal utility left. Over +25, there's hardly anything left.

So. What good is a +30 save? Yeah - it helps. But the +5 that gets you from +25 to +30 is worth a lot less than the +5 that got you from +20 to +25. And the +5 that got you from +20 to +25 is worth less than the +5 that got you from +15 to +20.
Right?

Or do you really, honestly think that a bonus to saves that only theoretically matters 1% of the time is as valuable as a bonus to save that matters all the time?

It's called Marginal Utility.
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1083760965[/unixtime]]
Here's what the honest-to-God 3.0E FAQ says on gauntlets.

Are gauntlets and spiked gauntlets considered weapons? Could a monk wearing a pair of gauntlets attack and still apply her unarmed attack bonus and unarmed damage? Could the monk use her class abilities that require successful unarmed strikes, such as her stun ability, while wearing gauntlets? How much damage would a monk wearing a pair of gauntlets deal? If the gauntlets had an enhancement bonus (such as a +2 enhancement bonus) or a special ability (such as flaming burst), would a monk wearing these gauntlets gain any benefit? Can gauntlets even have weapon enhancement bonuses or weapon special abilities?

Both gauntlets and spiked gauntlets are weapons (that ’s why they are both listed on Table 7–4 in the Player’s Handbook). A pair of gauntlets or spiked gauntlets can be magically enhanced, just as any other weapon can. Although a nonmonk wearing a pair of gauntlets is still
considered unarmed (see the next two questions), a monk
wearing gauntlets is using a weapon. A monk cannot use any of her special unarmed attack abilities (unarmed damage, stunning attack, and so on) when using a weapon. A monk can use her unarmed attack rate with a special monk weapon, but gauntlets are not a special monk weapon. A monk wearing gauntlets does not provoke attacks of opportunity when striking an armed foe
with gauntlets. The monk deals the same damage as any other character of her size (1d3 points of damage for a Medium-size character). The monk would get the benefits of any magical properties the gauntlets might have.



Now, from the actual honest-to-god 3.5E FAQ:

This version of the D&D FAQ uses the 3.5 revision of the core rules and also contains questions covering material from a variety of books (such as Savage Species and Epic Level Handbook). If you haven’t yet adopted the revision, don’t worry—in the rare instance that the answer is different between 3rd edition and the 3.5 revision, we’ll bring it to your attention with a call out that says “Revision Alert.”



Wow. You're probably right. Thats depressing. I actually do believe that something like that may be the 'official' perspective, despite the lack of anything about it in the 3.5 books or FAQ. I'll keep on playing with gauntlets=unarmed, because anything else seems to harsh to Monks, but I'll be more careful about what I post. I should probably just get the 3.5 word from Customer service.

Please not that the build showed a 20th level character using 36,000 gp worth of EQ. There aren't many un-equiped Feral Half-ogre Frenzied berzerkers with Strength scores of 10 doing 1d10+29 damage on a hit with an attack bonus of +43.
Having amazing saving throes is nice, but I see the real advantage as being able to run in, smack down the BBEG with 6 smites (180 damage, minimum, if all hit at no power attack), and run away. Its a lot like being a Rogue, but without the Fortification blues.

And please note, Charisma is immaterial to the build. you could have a charisma of 6 and still be doing fine (as long as you don't get Ego-whipped). Everything is Wisdom-based.

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Lago_AM3P »

I broke up your post and switched the order. This is intentional.

Before we get into ANYTHING, answer me this first:


What the hell do the monk levels have to do with anything? Your monk levels have almost nothing to do with your character's schtick.

Better speed is gotten by taking a level of barbarian and then using boots of haste.

Better saving throws are gotten by mixing and matching PrCs; since we're opening up the bait bucket that is Shiba Protector, there's no goddamn reason at all why we can't crack open the can of Tempest or Knight of the Middle Circle or whatever and still come out ahead.

You get almost much unarmed damage and wisdom bonus from a fairly cheap item.

What do monk levels anything have anything to do with this character? As soon as you answer this question, I'll pick apart this build, if you want, but I honestly don't give a rat's ass about how powerful a character can be when trying their damn best by picking class features as they see fit; hell, this entire chassis can be transplated on another class, and they'd be way better off.

Awhile ago, people got their pants very sticky over Singh Rager, crying 'OMG overpowered' when it was pointed out that a monk loaded up with flying kick and sandals of mighty leap could do some impressive things with it and blaming it all on the /monk/, while people apparently forgot that you could get similar mojo out of just being a rogue/barbarian and taking 3.0E drunken master levels or even a cleric grabbing a pair of wooden gauntlets pumped by spikes. The monk levels didn't do anything but up your unarmed damage a notch, at the cost of class features and BAB.

That's exactly what you have here. Apparently, a moderately cheesy character has the word 'monk' in the title and thus people can conclude that monks don't suck.

Well, I'm not buying this. Show me what the monk levels past 1 or 2 have to do at all with this cheese, and then we'll talk whether or not the monk is a piece of crap. Right now, I think this build offered up to defend monks is full of straw.


Wow. You're probably right.


I know I'm right.

A lot of people don't believe me, since I'm viewed as one of the worst monk haters on the WotC boards, but I am actually really, really enamored with the idea of an unarmed fighting class that isn't as broken or unthemely as the druid.

I have been trying since the day I got my 3E book in early 2002 to try to make the monk not suck. I bought books just solely on one glimmer of hope of the monk not sucking with just the right feat or just the right magic item. I couldn't quite put a handle on it, but something was wrong with my favorite character class.

Well, along comes Frank with his 'Why Monks' post, and it opened my eyes to the fact that just because you really like something and are willing to go to great depths to deny and justify your vision doesn't mean that it's any good. That's about when I became a powergaming cynic.

Thats depressing. I actually do believe that something like that may be the 'official' perspective, despite the lack of anything about it in the 3.5 books or FAQ. I'll keep on playing with gauntlets=unarmed, because anything else seems to harsh to Monks, but I'll be more careful about what I post.


See Frank's little blurb about why a lot of people are deluded into why monks don't blow.

Monk lovers, even me to an extent, are in a state of DENIAL about our hopes and dreams not sucking, and we can't get help until we stop hiding behind our cheesy builds and our Oriental Adventures and all of our monk's bracers. And when we finally admit to ourselves that the monk sucks--AND THAT'S OKAY--we will be free. Like the clouds.
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

Also note that Smites are a class feature, and thus when they say "level" they mean class level unless otherwise stated.

This means that a multiclassed Paladin is generally smiting for about 4 extra points of damage...

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1083817657[/unixtime]]I
Before we get into ANYTHING, answer me this first:


What the hell do the monk levels have to do with anything? Your monk levels have almost nothing to do with your character's schtick.


Sorry for not clearing that up... The build gains Smite evil and Turn undead from the monk levels, as well as the usual goodies (minus two feats), as per the Holy monk variant in Dragon 310. Turn undead isn't as big of an issue with this particular build (7 levels behind a cleric), but Smite is.

I find that in this case, Monk is stronger then straight Paladin (although possibly weaker then more Fist of Raziel, and certainly weaker then a similar spellcasting build).

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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083827851[/unixtime]]Also note that Smites are a class feature, and thus when they say "level" they mean class level unless otherwise stated.

This means that a multiclassed Paladin is generally smiting for about 4 extra points of damage...

-Username17


Ya, sorry. I was off on the Smite evil damage: it should be +19, not 20.
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Sorry for not clearing that up... The build gains Smite evil and Turn undead from the monk levels, as well as the usual goodies (minus two feats), as per the Holy monk variant in Dragon 310. Turn undead isn't as big of an issue with this particular build (7 levels behind a cleric), but Smite is.

I find that in this case, Monk is stronger then straight Paladin (although possibly weaker then more Fist of Raziel, and certainly weaker then a similar spellcasting build).


Oh. Right. Made-up classes. How stupid of me.

Yes, when you basically reinvent the monk class arbitarily because of a made-up rule in a magazine, then the monk will certainly be better. I'll admit that.

Similarly, if I used the cloistered cleric variant or the druid getting domains variant--also made up classes--in Unearthed Arcana, they'd be REALLY FRICKIN' COOL. Huh? Huh, guys?!
MrWaeseL
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Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by MrWaeseL »

Are the cloistered cleric's spells really that useful to a cleric? I don't exactly remember what they are, but IIRC they're diviniations.
Username17
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Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

The point is, as a Cloistered Cleric you gain a bonus domain (knowledge I think), and a crap load of skill points.

You lose BAB and weapons - which you get back as soon as you cast Divine Power. So if your plan is to be a Cleric Archer, then sooner or later taking levels of Cloistered Cleric is always better than levels of normal Cleric.

-Username17
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