Early Level Survival ... with an Arcane Trickster

[Username17]

Ah, but you do! Acid Fog gives your party time to prep, & buff, and position itself for when the opponent(s) come out of the fog. I don't know of any min/maxed high level partys that do not have everyone using Blindsight. And with Blindsight, the Trickster can fire rays into the Acid Fog. Since Rays are the only form of missile fire that can penetrate a fog. This is a great tactic versus an opponent that does not have a mobility solution to deal with Acid Fog's movement hindrances.

So... the synergy is that if you cast Acid Fog when you have the Rogue levels in there... you can cast and use your Wizard spells?

How exactly does the Rogue contribute to this?

Oh wait... this is another chance where you can combine a number of optional spells together in order to get your second rate sneak attack while firing one or two spells. See my previous comment that there were only two forms of synergy available to the Arcane Trickster.

Now the Wizard can cast Acid Fog and use area effect spells, or if you allow the spell "blindsight" - you can fire away with normal targetted attack spells.

In any case you can take the extra time to buff up the party or conjure things. No Rogue levels are required - or helpful - for this tactic.

Rogue skills, Rogue Sneak Attack, Divination Scouting spells, Rays + SA, Mobility & Stealth enhancement spells, ranged Disable Device/SoH capabilities, the list goes on and on Frank.

That is the list of things you have. It is not the list of synergy which is available to you that would not be available to you if the party Rogue and the party Wizard were different people.

The Rogue can Fly better if he gets the party Wizard to buff him than if he gives up 70 skill points and 5 levels of sneak attack progression to be able to do it himself.

The synergy is:

1> The Wizard end gets the ability to layer sneak attack on touch spells.

2> The Rogue end gets personal range buffs without needing to resort to a Ring of Spell Storing or the Use Magic Device skill.

That's it. Any non-personal buff the Rogue could benefit from can be cast at a higher caster level (making it at the very minimum harder to dispel) by just having the party Wizard cast it on you. Any sneak attacking the character does which is not in the form of a direct damage spell (and not one from a wand or other magic device) would be better if performed by an actual Rogue who had more sneak attack dice.

So show me the money. What's the personal range spell that is such a god damned killer app that a Rogue would be willing to give up seventy skill points, 4 points of BAB, and 5 levels of Sneak Attack (not to mention such non-trivialities as Skill Mastery) in order to cast it on himself. What's the killer damage combo that's so awesome that a Wizard would give up 3 caster levels in order to get those extra sneak attack damage dice?

So far, every killer combo you've shown is just "Wizards are awesome". Yeah, we know that. That's not new, and it's not something that a Wizard couldn't just do. You haven't shown any Rogue combos at all, and haven't made a single compelling argument as to why we wouldn't just play a Red Wizard.

-Username17

[Jack_Lurch]

Mod Edit: Post deleted as irrelevant to discussion. In the future Jack (and everyone), unless you have something to contribute to the discussion, please do not post just to take sides.

PM me with questions.

Game On,
fbmf

[fbmf]

Jack, if you want to discuss this further please do so by PM.

Game On,
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[Username17]

The WotC C.O. & Class-Based Accessories Boards have way much more traffic than the Nifty or Gaming Den boards. Go run searches on "Arcane Trickster" and any other PrC ... compare the totals. Arcane Trickster wins. People love the class. People play the class. People succeed, prosper, grow, and excel in the class. If mass delusionoid stupidity is the crux of your explanation for this, Frank ... well, I rest my case.

Actually, the most topics and posts have been generated for:

* The Shifter
* The Mystic Theurge
* The Assassin

Arcane Trickster is not in the top three.

Regardless, those top post getters do not get there because they are powerful - they get there because they resonate with archetypes that players want to play. Let's face it, at the end of the day your "shifting" capabilities (in addition to all your other capabilities) are going to be higher if you are a Druid 20 than if you are a Druid 10/ Shifter 10.

The Shifter has generated a lot of posts and discussions. Not because it is powerful, but because people want to play characters that match that archetype. People want to be the guy who turns into other stuff. Some people are stupid, some people are not. Some people who are not stupid are nonetheless willing to give up a significant amount of power for their character to match their conception better.

That's fine. But the fact that a lot of people want to play "tricky wizards" and "magical rogues" does not mean that the Arcane Trickster class is powerful at any level. And people generating discussion about Arcane Tricksters only means that the image brought up in people's minds is a compelling one.

In short - the only thing which we know is powerful about the Arcane Trickster from its relatively high levels of discussion is its flavor text.

-Username17

[Thoth_Amon]

That, and Ranged Legerdemain. I mean come on!

I can feel the sweet sweet disarming flavor from here. (Or maybe an AT is unzipping my pants from 30 paces.)

I love the flavor and the idea of the trickster, but when I made a 12th level trickster and looked at 12th level Rogues and 12th level wizards, it was too much to give up.

I am not sure how it can be done better. If it was 3/3 similar to Mystic Theurge so I was only giving up 2 sneak levels instead of 5 I might run one. But only because I like the idea of it, not becasue it is mechanically better than the alternatives.

TA

[fbmf]

Post by Unregistered Guest deleted as possibly inflammatory and irrelevant to the discussion. If said Guest wishes to e-mail or PM me regarding this, he/she is of course welcome to do so.

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

Mod Edit: Upon further review, it was decided to edit out reference to deleted post.

Every tactic that Lee has brought up so far has been Wizard-only.

So far he has not made a single reference to any use of Rogue abilities other than sneak attack, and his only direct reference to using sneak attack (that of causing 5 enemies to suffer sneak attack damage from a single spell) was directly against the rules, as I cited.

I've put the gauntlet at his feet: show me the money. His mechanical points have been either illegal or simply "wizards are awesome".

As stated, we know that wizards are awesome. Show a complicated set-up by which you can thrash people with spells isn't new. Indeed, we can do any of that you can think of a minimum of three levels earlier by just having a straight wizard (and sometimes earlier than that with a prestige wizard).

The only way these combos can actually mean anything is if it actually relies upon having the spellcasting and the rogue skills on the same person. And so far, Lee has not produced a single legal combo that does so.

Acid Fog + Blind Sight is a great combo (although I prefer Solid Fog + Blind Sight and then following up with a Prismatic Spray for your seventh level spell). But the only thing that is different about that combo when cast by an Arcane Trickster is that the Wizard could do it 18 game sessions ago. That's not a strong statement in the Arcane Trickster's favor. When the Arcane Trickster can finally get that combo off a few times per day, the regular Wizard can still do it more and then has 8th or 9th level spells left over to actually blast into the fog, while the Arcane Trickster is still using his highest spell slots to pull it off and is blasting away with 6th level spells.

Let's look at the optimistic case of a Wizard 5 / Rogue 3 / ArT 8 - you have 7th level spells as your highest level spells, which you are using to bottle up enemies, leaving you 6th level spells to blast with. That's a valid tactic, and a very effective one, but the Wizard is 16th level, and can still bottle his enemies with the 7th level spells and then has 8th level spells left over to blast with.

See, while the Arcane Trickster can use his highest level spells as utility spells - the Wizard has higher level spells to begin with. He can still prepare all of his spell slots of the highest level available to the Arcane Trickster as utility spells - and then use the extra higher level spells he has as the combat spells. Meaning that the Arcane Trickster is actually hitting the enemy with spells which are two or three levels lower than those of the Wizard.

So if the Arcane Trickster shoots a ray spell at his enemy, and gets sneak attack - the actual Wizard could cast the same spell empowered, instead. Maybe even maximized, but at the very least empowered.

So the Arcane Trickster adds 1d6 of damage for every other level of Arcane Trickster, and 1d6 of damage for every other level of Rogue. So he adds less than half his level in bonus d6s. The wizard, on the other hand, simply adds half the damage as a bonus - a damage which generally starts at about 1d6 per caster level. And the Wizard has 3 extra caster levels.

So the Wizard is doing more damage with an empowered spell than the Arcane Trickster is doing with a sneak attack. And the Wizard doesn't need to blind his enemies or use up impromptu sneak attacks, or even rely upon single target ray spells. The Wizard can just empower any old spell, and does more damage than the Arcane Trickster does while having the same utility spells.

And that's the bottom line.

-Username17

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Please keep the discussion on topic (which seems to be "Do AT's suck or not?") Bashing a poster, even one who is not a regular (or registered), is not permitted.
[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

Game On,
fbmf

[Maj]

You know, I was almost with Frank until I realized you could sneak attack with Meteor Swarm. Does the damage you deal on a sneak attack with that turn out to be bludgeoning?

[Essence]

And yet you have failed to name even one circumstance where a straight Mage can out-stealth a Trixter or a straight Rogue can out-damage a Trixter. And in all cases, you have ignored the best aspect of the high-levelled AT, and that is his unparalleled ability to scout/recon and be the transport/mobility/information-provider super-freak that he is.

A straight Mage can out-stealth a Trixter with Shapechange + Stalking Spell. It's hard to notice an invisible, silent, scentless Fine creature. Real hard.

A straight Rogue can out-damage a Trixter with Expert Tactician, Quickstrike (Traps and Treachery), Rapid Strike (Arcana Unearthed), Haste, and a Monk's Belt. +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+6/+5/+3 with a base 10 sneak attack dice is something that no spell can ever come close to.

And the role of scout/recon/transport/mobility can be played just as well by the Shapechanged Stalking Mage. And the role of information provider can be played just as well by the Sneak Attacking Uber Rogue.


Mind you, I disagree that the Arcane Trickster is teh suk, but your examples in this case are flat-out flawed.

[Username17]

1076561944[/unixtime]]You know, I was almost with Frank until I realized you could sneak attack with Meteor Swarm. Does the damage you deal on a sneak attack with that turn out to be bludgeoning?

Yes, it is bludgeoning damage.

It's also +7d6 sneak attack against one target for the whole spell. And in order to count as a sneak attack, you have to have a direct line of fire no more than 30 feet between you and the target.

The radius of Meteor Swarm is 40 feet. It's not an insurmountable problem, but one which is, I think, more pain to get around than doing an extra seven dice of bludgeoning damage to one target is at 20th level.

3.5 Meteor Swarm is pretty much suck regardless of whether you are sneak attacking with it or not (and catching yourself in your own area of effect of course). Remember, it's four sources of bludgeoning damage without an enhancement bonus or special material and four sources of fire damage. DR 10/Magic and Fire Resistance 20 will together form Voltron and negate the entire spell - and it's really hard to find CR 17 opponents who don't have that.

A straight Rogue can out-damage a Trixter with Expert Tactician, Quickstrike (Traps and Treachery), Rapid Strike (Arcana Unearthed), Haste, and a Monk's Belt. +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+6/+5/+3 with a base 10 sneak attack dice is something that no spell can ever come close to.

That's a pretty sketchy combo - as for one thing it mixes the Rogue Class with Arcana Unearthed abilities - which is something of a stretch.

However, you can still Rapid Shot your bow while hasted and benefitting from GMW and you can shoot 6 times with 10 dice of sneak attack and benefit from as much as +14 worth of abilities on the bow and vary your arrows according to the material DR of your enemies. A cool 60 dice of sneak attack is still far more than an Arcane Trickster can legally match and the bow itself is going to be adding another 9 dice of various funky stuff per hit, and you get your strength bonus (why bother if not on a Mighty Bow?), and the +5 Enhancement Bonus, and the PBS bonus, and your Bracers of Archery bonus, etc. A Rogue on the war path can bury any spellcaster in terms of damage output/round unless the spellcaster resorts to infinite damage loops or the like.

I mean, a wizard can magic jar into a new body, Shapeshift themselves into a Jovoc, get the Tanari subtype and the retributive aura ability, then change shape again - losing the subtype and keeping the ability - and then stab themselves right in the face causing infinite damage to themselves and everyone around them (and half that to all other non-tanari in the area who make their save) - then go back to the gem and do it again. But short of stuff like that, no Wizard, whether they have 7 whole dice of sneak attack or not, can match a Rogue's damage output.

-Username17

[Maj]

he radius of Meteor Swarm is 40 feet. It's not an insurmountable problem, but one which is, I think, more pain to get around than doing an extra seven dice of bludgeoning damage to one target is at 20th level.

Energy Immunity is a great 6th level spell... So is Fly.

3.5 Meteor Swarm is pretty much suck regardless of whether you are sneak attacking with it or not (and catching yourself in your own area of effect of course). Remember, it's four sources of bludgeoning damage without an enhancement bonus or special material and four sources of fire damage. DR 10/Magic and Fire Resistance 20 will together form Voltron and negate the entire spell - and it's really hard to find CR 17 opponents who don't have that.

I have to admit that I'm not fond of the spell, but I didn't realize it was a ray spell. That's just... plain freaky.

I think I agree that the Arcane Trickster sucks - if you play with only WotC based rules. Bring in feats like Battle Touch and Precise Touch (Book of Eldritch Cheese III), Greater Sneak Attack (Swashbuckling Adventures), and the character is a whole new animal.

[Username17]

Energy Immunity is a great 6th level spell... So is Fly.

Like I said, it's not an insurmountable problem. However, Fly does not help in any way.

It goes 40 feet and you have to be within 30 feet of the center. It doesn't matter what direction you go in, up ways, down ways, side ways, or square ways - you are still in the are of effect.

The area goes forty feet and you have to be within 30 feet of the target. That's not something you can get around by just going up or down.

Or, and while Fly is useless in this instance, it is only a 3rd level spell. Energy Immunity, however, is seventh level for Wizards. I mean, we are talking about using Meteor Swarm - so that's not beyond your means or anything - but it is higher level than you are reporting.

-Username17

[Maj]

Actually, Frank, the only spell area that I was aware that had a third dimension attached to it was a cylinder. I think that's the only effect with a height listed. Has this been corrected for 3.5?

As for Energy Immunity's level... The last time I played with it was as a Druid. My mistake.

[Username17]

In 3rd edition, Spreads went out in all directions and could turn corners. So they went up and down as well.

In 3.5 they explicitly go in all directions. Even up and down.

-Username17

[da_chicken]

/me is confused. DR won't stop the damage from ice storm. Why would it affect meteor swarm?

[Username17]

As per the RAW of 3.5, DR stops the damage from Ice Storm as well. That's the game mechanical effect of it being "Bludgeoning" damage.

Or maybe they don't. There's a substantial ambiguity, in that DR is ignored by "spells", but DR works against physical damage that is not of the appropriate type.

However, since the only effect of being bludgeoning over being untyped damage is that untyped damage affects anything and bludgeoning damage is kept out by any DR that is not X/Bludgeoning - we have to conclude that either:

* Ice Storm and Meteor Swarm are reduced by DR 5/Slashing as found on Zombies.

or

* The game designers are idiots.

Take your pick.

-Username17

[da_chicken]

Well, in 3.0 if you ice storm an annis hag, mummy, or skeleton it would be affected since their bludgeoning resistance/vulnerability wasn't DR. But in 3.5, it is (DR 2/bludegon, DR 5/-, or DR 5/bludgeon). I'd consider it a simple artifact of the gravitation towards DR.

[User3]

"But short of stuff like that, no Wizard, whether they have 7 whole dice of sneak attack or not, can match a Rogue's damage output."

What about an Empowered Disintegrate coupled with an Empowered Quickened Scorching Ray? Like that one poster stated, you could also have up and running a crazy damage spell like Dessicating Bubble or Flaming Sphere that just uses your move action. Add in a free action Prismatic Eye beam or Avandor's Stars (boed), and the damage can get insane from a Wizard. Then there is all that craziness with the Simbul Spell Sequencers from the MoF book. If you cram them full of damage spells, you can use them in lieu of Quickened spells.

The Arcane Trickster can do the same thing, although with a +7d6 sneak attack added per hit.

[Username17]

What about an Empowered Disintegrate coupled with an Empowered Quickened Scorching Ray?

What about it?

Minimum level for an Arcane Trickster to pull that off is 18th, and even then they only get to do it a maximum of once a day (assuming an Int of less than 34 , even with school specialization in Transmutation or Evocation).

It's a lot of damage, but an 18th level Rogue can do better. 3 attacks base, and they can stack on a Haste Attack, an Expert Tactician Attack, and a Rapid Shot attack, all the while doing 9 extra damage on every single attack. That's 54 dice before we even calculate the damage from their weapons!

The Trickster has a caster level of 15, and plugs in for 18 dice of of damage with the Scorching rays + 7 dice sneak attack. The Disintegrate does 37 dice on a failed save and only 12 dice on a successful save. So assuming the victim fails the save (at which point why are you bothering to Disintegrate them, when you could just kill them - they failed a Fort Save against an 8th level spell?), you are looking at 62 dice of damage (average damage = 217).

Nice, but if the Rogue is juggling weaponry which does 54 dice bonus (average damage 189). With his six attacks, if the weapons themselves are doing just 4.6 points of damage - he's pulling ahead.

Which means that if the Rogue is using a +2 Short bow and a +2 Short Sword, at 18th frickin level, he still does more damage (222 vs. 217), even when the victim fails a save vs. the Disintegrate effect. That's with no strength bonus, BTW.

The Wizard can go ahead and have a fat bunch of sustained effects going that let him shovel more damage on people. An actual Rogue with +5 weapons and probably some extra bonuses on them and a strength bonus, and some damage enhancing abilities is simply going to run away with the comparison.

I'd consider it a simple artifact of the gravitation towards DR.

Well that is why. The Damage was bludgeoning before when there was a mechanic to go with it, and now that the mechanic has been removed from the 3.5 rules set it still says Bludgeoning on it.

So, as I said, your choices are:

1> Bludgeoning Spells are now supposed to be affected by DR.

or

2> Andy Collins is an idiot.

Take your pick.

-Username17

[Username17]

Revision: More Cheese Power with the Arcane Trickster.

As long as we are talking stupid optional rules...

If you are playing with the Unearthed Arcana rules for qualifying for PrCs with tests... well, things change considerably. The Arcane Trickster's test prerequisite doesn't actually have anything on it that you couldn't do with a Wizard who happened to be an Illusionist or Enchanter at about 6th or 7th level.

And hey, a straight Wizard with 10 levels of Arcane Trickster gets 20 extra skill points and a better list for nothing. 5 dice of sneak attack really doesn't mean crap, but the class is much better than a kick in the teeth so long as you aren't having to set your class synergy back 3 levels to get in the door.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

1077577611[/unixtime]]Revision: More Cheese Power with the Arcane Trickster.

As long as we are talking stupid optional rules...

If you are playing with the Unearthed Arcana rules for qualifying for PrCs with tests... well, things change considerably. The Arcane Trickster's test prerequisite doesn't actually have anything on it that you couldn't do with a Wizard who happened to be an Illusionist or Enchanter at about 6th or 7th level.

Hmmm...I thought they were in addition to meeting the normal prerequisites, like the ravagers in CW.

[Username17]

Hmmm...I thought they were in addition to meeting the normal prerequisites, like the ravagers in CW.

Nope. The optional tests rule is instead of meeting the normal prereqs. The concept is that noone in the world can actually tell whether you have 7 ranks of Decipher Script and an Int Bonus of +3 or 5 ranks and an Int Bonus of +5 - the visible result (that you can take ten and solve a DC 20 puzzle) is exactly the same.

That being said, it's a horribly broken rule, since of course it is trivial for characters actually geared towards a PrC to pass tests geard towards an average individual having the base requirements.

The listed DC on the Decipher Script test, for example, is only 17 - which is what someone with no Int Bonus would be able to get by taking ten if the met the standard prereqs of Arcane Trickster. But if you are taking the test, I'd bet dollars to donuts that you have a positive (and large) Intelligence Bonus, which means you can pull it off with significantly less than 7 ranks in Decipher Script.

All you really need to win that challenge is an Int of 18, 3 ranks of DS, Major Image, Invisibility, Knock, and Fly - in that order. Once you have that you can get in to the class and start with the laughing.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Does anything really cool happen with the Arcane Trickster once the wizard picks up Arcane Disciple with the Hero domain as a feat?

It adds a lot of the 'personal' range spells to your arsenal. But at the cost of being three caster levels behind, I'm not so sure...

[User3]

Since this thread popped up again, I wanted to know if anyone has ever considered using Assasin spellcasting levels to qualify for the preregs on the AC, and then adding the caster levels to a single level of Wiz? You end up being only half a level behind on your sneak attack, and at 20th level you cast as a fifth level assasin and an 11th level Wiz.