Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

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Desdan_Mervolam
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Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

This is something that occured to me a few days ago when trying to handle the dilema of spellcasting in d20 Modern. Is it REALLY nessissary for my third level spells to have a lower save than my fifth? Shouldn't my saves be based on my personal power level rather than the level of the spell I'm casting? If so, why?

I think it might be better to handles spell saves as 10+stat modifier+1/2 class level. Hell, why not be wacky and have spell saves be 10+Stat Modifier+1/2 character level? That'd make multiclassing suck a whole lot less.

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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by fbmf »

In our games, we use 10 + stat mod + half caster level (rounded down). As long as you do it for the monsters, too, it works out fine.

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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Maj »

Ess and I do that in our games (10 + 1/2 Character Level + Stat), and it makes spells stay more useful - why use a Mass Charm when a Charm Person will do? If the saves are the same, then a lot of the lower level spells don't go out of style as quickly.

And, of course, there's my love of epic games and the fact that spells that aren't epic can remain useful. Granted, in a world where you can add a resistance bonus, a morale bonus, and a luck bonus to saves - not to mention second stats like the Paladin - I'm inclined to believe that DCs, even with the suggested modification, are still too low.

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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Why do you think spellcasters need a power-up, even one as mild as this? I'm not saying that doing this is bad - I just wonder why it's needed.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Maj »

Personally, when we decided to make DCs for spellcasters this way, we did it for everything - abilities given by prestige classes, monsters, etc.

It has had a few effects: there is only one mechanic that determines a special ability's DC, low-level spell slots can still be useful at higher levels, and it allows abilities to scale forever.

I have been of the opinion that DCs are too low at higher levels. I suspect that a large portion of my opinion is based on the fact that I usually play in fairly high-powered campaigns, but in my experience, saves outstrip DCs to such a degree that it's laughable. At low levels, this method of determining DCs really doesn't have much effect. At higher levels, it only really makes a difference for low-level powers.

I guess I never thought of it as a power-up so much as a mechanic fix.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

IMO, it is a power-up to casters. High-level spell DC's are going to remain about the same (atl east through level 20 - I don't get those epic rules at all). Your looking at 19+ability v. 18, 19, or 20 + ability for 9th level spells - basically the same. For low level spells, things jump from say, 12+ability to 18, 19, or 20 +ability.

This effectively quadruples the useful spells of a spellcaster, which are limited mostly by spell DC. Hold person remains a save or die spell forever, instead of getting replaced by actual save or die spells.

I don't see this as a mechanic fix, but a mechanic replacement. It makes spellls effective regardless of spell level - a totally different theory for spells. Not necessarily bad, but I was curious why it was needed. IMX, casters have plenty of effective spells as is. They may need a bost of their top level spell DCs IMO, but not a boost to their low level spell DCs.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Username17 »

At high levels you can make a great case for Save DCs being too high. You can also make a great case for Save DCs being too low.

It really depends upon whether you are casting spells on a multiclassed Paladin or on a single classed git.

The real problem is that the save bonuses differ by more than +/- 20 on different characters at high levels, so no Save DC is ever going to be satisfactory.

However, the fact that monster Save DCs are calculated as 1/2 Hit Dice + Stat Mod, while multiclassed spellcasters go out and cry is really a travesty. It means, for example, that multicasters don't get the save DCs of a primary caster. It's like if Fighter/Paladins couldn't stack BAB between classes.

Fundamentally:

Saves should probably start at the Epic Bonus levels. A few classes could give out an appropriate Save Feat as a bonus at some point (for example, the Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Monk could hand out GF, LR, IW, and LoH), and that's about as far as it should probably go. The whole thing of people accumulating saves at a radically different rate for different classes is a terrible idea because it means that the difference in save values between two characters is ultimately going to become completely intractable.

But yeah, Save DCs should be a function of character level, not spell level.

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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Essence »

The Hanged Man wrote:This effectively quadruples the useful spells of a spellcaster, which are limited mostly by spell DC. Hold person remains a save or die spell forever, instead of getting replaced by actual save or die spells.


Depends on your definition of "useful". We still rarely if ever see lower-level spells used in combat. Why, after all, would you use Hold Person when you could use Mass Hold Person? Or Finger of Death/Wail of the Banshee/Implosion/Etc. A high-level caster's repertoire really doesn't change.

What happens, however, is that 6/14 Sorcerer/Fighters can and do use Hold Person at about the same DC as the 20th level Sorcerer uses Mass Hold Person -- and that's exactly what we want. Higher level spells are better because they're mechanically superior, not because the lower level spells straight don't work. High-level straight spellcasters still roxxor the soxxorz off of multiclassed spellcasters -- but at least those multiclassed spellcasters have a chance of using their spells for something other than buffing.

Besides, why worry about giving high-level spellcasters more useful spells-per-day when they never ran out in the first place? It's like gaining your 12th Rage per day...no one cares.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by User3 »

Rather than do that and make the poor wizard cry when the Rogue 19/Wiz 1 throws better Color Sprays, I think more spells shouldn't have saves, or have effects that happen also when you fail a save.

Ray spells, for example, already have a attack roll. Make it a real attack roll(and not a weenie touch attack), and if it hits, it works.

Clouds should not give DCs. For the small effect that they do, they should just work(and most don't have saves, except for ones like the giant crapfest Mind Fog, which if you fail a Will save, will lower your will save. At that rate, I'll just cast a Fort or Reflex spell, since the only reason to lower your Will save is because you have a good one, and bacause you have a good one, you are going to save vs the Mind Fog. Bleh!)

Evocations have partial saves, and it seems to work. Why not for the othe Save or Die spells. Reduce the Die effect, and increase the Save effect.

Giving good saves to low level spells makes me feel dirty. I know, because I am playing in a game like this. Low level spells get used more often than the high level ones, and I am seriously considering why I need to continue being a spellcaster at all. The spells I got as a 6th level Sorcerer really are varied enough to last me 95% of all the combats and situations I get into. These last four levels I've been drifting around, not really pleased when I got fourth and fifth level spells. How sick is that?

Playtest it, and tell me if you feel the same.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I worry about anything that makes casters better, even in marginal ways. I already feel bad for people that want to play fighters and monks and so on.

I define useful spells as "spells that a caster reasonably can expect to be effective." IMX, casters almost always run out of spells each day - but the groups I play with amp up encounters per day.

But I get it. It does let multiclassed casters do something, which is nice. Nice for bards, too. Nice that you don't have to waste time thinking about Heighten Spell. And if casters only get off 6 or 7 combat spells/day anyway, it doesn't matter much to casters.

As I said, just a little curious.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Username17 »

Keith, you took only utility spells for level 3+. If that means that you end up casting your 1st and 2nd level combat spells in combat, that is only a natural outgrowth of the fact that those are the only combat spells you have.

If you'd like we could go back to the old way and your spells wouldn't even work anymore and combat would happen and you'd go cry. I'm not sure that would be an improvement, but it would certainly make you shut up about how still fighting with color spray makes your character feel static...

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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Damage cap should be character level based too.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Essence »

The Hanged Man wrote:I already feel bad for people that want to play fighters and monks and so on.


Ahh, that explains a lot. IMG, we've amped up every class I could get ahold of until Druids stopped making them cry. High level non-casters are far from inferior in my games. :)
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by User3 »

My experience as a Sorc was this: I took Fireball, and then went five adventures before I got to use it. for 6th to 10th level I have used it three times, and one of those times it was for show. Its useless in the "box" type encounter, and in the middle of a confused melee. After that, I took Scorching Ray, and have been doing more damage in combat with that.

My first 4th level spell was Polymorph. I spent several combats realizing that it is not a combat spell(since even with the best forms, monsters at that level start to have DR or high ACs to make them an even match for our juiced up fighter) before I started using it as a means to get 7 points of natty armor and the ability to fly.

Shadow Conjuration also was a bust as I then realized that the only way to use it is to take all the supplements, and all the spells, and try and duplicate those. Using the 9 1st through 3rd conjurations in the PHB as models doesn't work, and making stuff up feels like cheating.

Now with the opportunity to take 5th level spells, I find that there are few good combat 5th level spells. I really need to rethink what i am doing.
------------------

My orginal point is this: Take the Save or Die spells out of circulation. Make every spell have an effect regardless of the save. Fighters get multiple attacks, so that if one or two attacks miss, maybe the third one will hit. they know that even if they aren't 100% sucessful, they can be at least useful to the party.

The first time a mage spends five rounds of combat having the monster save against every spell, and he realizes that he just wasted five slots and contributed nothing, then he starts to feel crappy.

Upping the DCs of low level spells just means that saves have to go up, since failing a save all the time is just as bad as making it all the time.

The philospohy of a failed save is that it should be like a critical hit: something that happens frequently, screws the enemy or the player, but doesn't mean that once it happens the battle is over.

It is this very reason that i haven't taken Phantasmal Killer(even though I have Focus and Improved Focus on Illusions). I really don't want to face the final battle, and kill the boss monster with a single spell(even if I have to cast it four times). I have no problem killing mooks with a single spell, but I feel cheated(and like a cheater) when I end important battles that way.

Reworking the whole save system so that it works like a crit would be a far better system. At no point should a high level fighter say "Give me that poison to drink, cuz I have a +15 to Fort Saves. I can bath in the stuff, and I'll be OK."
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Wrenfield »

K ... or Keith for that matter wrote:It is this very reason that i haven't taken Phantasmal Killer(even though I have Focus and Improved Focus on Illusions). I really don't want to face the final battle, and kill the boss monster with a single spell(even if I have to cast it four times). I have no problem killing mooks with a single spell, but I feel cheated(and like a cheater) when I end important battles that way.


This .... is an odd statement. I almost don't know where to start with it...
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I understand it, though. You slog through the dungeon, faced w/ foes the whole way. Tough battles, near-death sometimes, always outnumbered. Finally - the payoff. The BBEG, in her lair, waits - and fails a fort save, and gets turned into a bug. Kind of anti-climactic.

But save-or-die is part of the game. And a good part, IMO. Keith doesn't like the all-or-nothing aspect of them, but that's a taste thing. I can't say he's wrong - just that I disagree.

And Keith, why don't you register? You post enough.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Username17 »

Basically, the concept of Magic in D&D has always been one of higher potential returns in exchange for more impressive failures when you fail.

Spells are all about getting one chance for all the marbles instead of a series of chances which collectively adjudicate a range of marble values. That's what magic has been for over three decades.

That's why you can swing a sword multiple times a round and only get one spell.

In a world of perfect balance, the sword swinging would on average add up to the same number of kills per round - but it is still going to do so with a much flatter probablity curve with more gradations of partial success.

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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by RandomCasualty »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1083770861[/unixtime]]
It is this very reason that i haven't taken Phantasmal Killer(even though I have Focus and Improved Focus on Illusions). I really don't want to face the final battle, and kill the boss monster with a single spell(even if I have to cast it four times). I have no problem killing mooks with a single spell, but I feel cheated(and like a cheater) when I end important battles that way.


Yeah. I agree with you.

The big problem I have with save or die spells is that they're best when the battle starts. It's certainly cool to end up turning the BBEG into a rat or into a statue or a pile of ash, but you don't want to do that right away.

I always thought a minimum hp cap or something might be nice for save or dies, similar to power word kill.

I think those cinematic effects are great if they're used Mortal Kombat style. You beat the guy up a bit, then when he's weakened, you reduce him to a pile or ash, rip out his heart and teleport it to your hand, or whatever.

But at the start of combat you shouldn't really be able to take the guy out with one spell.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by User3 »

BBEG?
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Username17 »

Keith at [unixtime wrote:1083786781[/unixtime]]BBEG?


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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1083770861[/unixtime]]My experience as a Sorc was this: I took Fireball, and then went five adventures before I got to use it. for 6th to 10th level I have used it three times, and one of those times it was for show. Its useless in the "box" type encounter, and in the middle of a confused melee.


You game with Frank and hadn't heard that fireball isn't the best spell ever before you played with it?
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by User3 »

I took Fireball so that I could kill someone. I didn't expect it to roxxor everyone. I would have like it to work.

Funny story through....I was flying around in at see while we were being attacked by Sirine-type monsters. I basically routed the whole attack alone by firing like six Fireballs. Frank eventually had to throw in an Dispel trap inb the main lair to prevent me from clearing the whole adventure alone.

Too powerful or not powerful enough. The life of a mage is so complex.
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Re: Is there any reason for layered spell saves?

Post by User3 »

Crap. I meant SEA. I was flying at sea.
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