What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

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Username17
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What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Username17 »

Soulknifes, man, what the hell?

The flavor is kind of cool, you make this psionic blade with your mind and cut people up. But the mechanics, oh man it's horrible.

A Soulknife's class ability for level 1 is that they can draw an unexceptional short sword as a move equivalent action. They also have weapon focus in any short sword they draw with this action. But they have a Rogue's BAB, and a Monk's skill points - so they aren't really excelling at anything.

For level 2, the Soulknife gains the ability to throw the short sword. Much like they had been armed with hand axe or something.

So at level 1, a first level warrior fights just as well as you do if he's got a short sword. And fights better than you if he's using anythng else (including a masterwork or magical short sword). And at second level - that's still true.

What the hell is wrong with people such that they'd write a class that bad? It compares poorly to NPC classes in its chosen vocation.

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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Wrenfield »

Yeah, playing an organically-grown Soulknife from level 1 up is absolutely ludicrous.

Even at certain juncture points in its 20 level lifespan it looks slightly compelling (with the bonus damage additions) ... until you make mechanical comparisons to what you could have with other classes and then you again shake your head. This class suffers from the Monk's same syndrome.

The class also is not multi-class friendly ... at all. I would amend this class by giving it BAB +20, and only 1 good save (REFL). I don't see the damage to base mechanics in doing so.

Speaking of which, why does this class have 2 good saves (REFL and WILL), yet the Psychic Warrior, who is a certified practicioner of psionic powers and a master of cerebral prowess ... only has FORT as a good save. :confused:
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by User3 »

I'm pissed. How can I feel justified when I make fun of Bards with this thing around? Thanks a lot, Bruce.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

It's ok. You can still make fun of bards. This isn't core! :)
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Yeah, the Soul Knife is cool conceptually, and I think having a weapon you can never be deprived of is a very underrated ability in the D&D community, but I do agree that if you're going to give a combat class a rogues BAB, you have to compensate for it with alot of cool abilities. And while I do not have, nor do I intend to get the XPsiH, I really doubt they get enough stuff to make up for their low BAB

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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Having a weapon you can't lose is almost entirely a RP concern. One of my peeves is trying to balance mechanic issues w/ RP issues. IT just can't be done.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

The_Hanged_Man at [unixtime wrote:1083267038[/unixtime]]Having a weapon you can't lose is almost entirely a RP concern.


It doesn't have to be. In fact, it only is when your unlosable weapon is signifigantly less viable than something you could go spend a reasonable amout of money to get. It's the monk dilemma all over again. Monks suck because while their fighter buddy is smacking things around with a +2 Flaming Burst Longsword and getting 1d8+str+2+1d6 with extra on crits, the monk is doing 1d8+str damage, and that's not even considering the monk's lower BAB. Monks suck because they cannot really get +2 Flaming Burst Fists, and anything that might make their fists comparable to the fighter's sword is far more expensive than it.

And that's the problem with the Soulknife. You can't just go to a wizard, pop out your glowey stabby, and ask him to enchant it. And since there's no way to get enchantments built in to the class, the psi-sword will never approach the coolness of the fighter's sword.

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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by RandomCasualty »

First, the cleric BaB was just stupid. I don't see where the "you've got a magic sword for free so that somehow equals out your BaB" theory comes from... but given the existence of the Kensai in CW, and the SK in XPH it seems like it's a definitely prevalent theory.

The reason classes like the soulknife suck is because they're based around the premise of saving money. Basically you put levels into soulknife and now you don't have to worry about buying a magic sword, so essentially you're saving cash.

At low level, the SK just sucks. Saving 2,000 GP on a sword is minor stuff compared to what you could have as a fighter. Now assuming you compare the high level SK to the core classes only, he may not look that bad as there's probably many things he can do with the extra 100,000 gp or so he saves on a sword.

The problem is that the SK is giving up the ability to multiclass by linking his sword strength to his class level, and when you play him in the majority of games with PrCs, as most people do, the soulknife loses out big because he can't take PrCs. Of course if your DM doesnt' allow many or any PrCs, this isnt' a terrible disadvantage.

The main problem with balancing stuff in this game is that nobody is sure exactly what to balance things toward. Some authors are balancing stuff with the core fighter, who just sucks, others are balancing stuff with the core classes in general, others are balancing stuff based on druids, and others are balancing stuff based on existing PrCs. Others, like the Defenders of the faith team, are too busy being munchkins to even worry about balance.

Because the core rules aren't very well balanced, expecting supplement books to be is a rather lost cause, because you can't really say anything is balanced against the core. All you can say is "it's equivalent to a core druid, it's balanced agaisnt a core fighter or it's balanced agianst a wizard" and all of those amount to very different things.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Username17 »

The Soulknife's abilties are:

Level 1: You can always draw a short sword as a move equivalent action. You gain no BAB, but you gain Weapon Focus in your short sword. You can't transfer your short sword to another person. You can only have one at a time, so it's not as good as having a real short sword if you wanted to TWF or something. It grants no bonuses and is significantly worse than a MW shortsword.

Level 2: You can throw your short sword, making it the equivalent of a hand axe.

Level 3: You can inflict +1d8 damage with your short sword by spending a MEA. This means that you essentially get +1d8 damage so long as you don't ever take more than one attack per roud. This is almost as good as like Two Weapon Fighting, or using a bigger weapon, at this level.

Level 4: You now have a +1 Mindblade - saving you over 2,000 gp. Note that this means you've been fighting without a magic weapon for the last 3 levels (the blade counts as a magic weapon for overcoming DR, but not for the purposes of striking incorporeal enemies - hope you haven't fought a Shadow or an Allip ever).

Lvel 5: You can now draw your blade as a free action - and you can make your blade into a longsword! Now, other characters have been able to use a longsword for some time now, so I'm not sure what the dealio is. You don't get a BAB, but get Quickdraw is the practical effect here.

Level 6: The Soulknife now has a +1 longsword with a +1 special power. Which the Fighter has had for some time. But now the Soul Knife has caught up with that, and only had to give up all his class features to do it.

Level 7: When the Soulknife does his Full Round Action attack, he now gets a second bonus d8. This is where it starts to make you cry. See, if he'd been a normal fighter, he'd be able to full attack for an entire second attack by now - which would do more bonus damage than that 2d8 he's adding in exchange for giving up the second attack that he doesn't even have because he's also giving up his BAB for the class.

Level 8: The character finally gets a +2 mindblade - at the same time as the Wizard can just wave his hands and give everyone in the party +2 weaponry except him. He finally gets a second attack - but he can't actually use it if he wants to take advantage of his bonus damage feature - which is of course the only unique thing this class actually does.

Etc.

Class is the suck.

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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by User3 »

But.. but.. he can totally rock monstrous scorpions or any poor loser using charisma as a dump stat!
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Username17 »

Yes, at 13th level with a full round action he can do 3 points of charisma damage.

That and a successful melee attack will drop a CR 12 Monstrous Scorpion.

Not bad for a 13th level character - but not actually all that impressive, either.

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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by RandomCasualty »

Personally I don't think ability score damage should exist at all, at least not without a save. It's a bad mechanic in general and leads to you being able to kill almost anything with 100 stirges.

I'd prefer the soulknife be a 3 level PrC with a few abilities and that's it. Basically give him the ability to enchant a mind blade, which is the equivalent of craft magic arms and armor, and let him make whatever mind blade shape he wants. Probably limit it to long sword or shortsword for flavor if you want. The mind blade can simply be upgraded in power by paying the appropriate amount as though you had the craft feat.

Make the mind blade different in some way, like use charisma or wisdom for bonus damage instead of strength. Make the ability actually worth something instead of just "I can create a shortsword"

At second level, he can split the mind blade, throw it and do that kind of cool stuff. Maybe also give him a free weapon focus feat in MB.

Third level, he could be able to swap out abilities the mind blade has for other abilities so long as the mind blade's total ability cost remains the same or less.

And that's really all he needs. That stupid psychic strike ability and knife to the soul really should just go away.

After that let him multiclass, because this class is really just an ability package not a total concept. Yeah he fights with mindblades, but how? Does he throw them, does he use rage and brute force like a barbarian, or does he have pure technique like a fighter? Basically let him decide by letting him multiclass into something that better fits his fighting style.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Maj »

Hey, Frank. Thanx for starting this thread (and thank you to those who have responded) as it has given me lots of advice on how to keep my version of the prestige class from sucking.

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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Oberoni »

When your whole goal in life is to hit things, you probably shouldn't have a medium BAB.

No, scratch that.

You definitely shouldn't have a medium BAB.

I don't care how cool you think you look.

You know what's cooler than having a flashy brainblade? It's hitting your freakin' enemy!

You know, I really like the XPH, but the soulknife....geez oh man. What were they thinking?
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Dragon_Child »

As I don't think anyone can EVER defend the soulknife, let me add another "What the hell was Cordell thinking?" question:

Whats up with Greater Power Penetration? You either need two other feats (that are not requirements to take it) or an epic feat to use it! Its pretty obvious what it SHOULD do (be +8, instead of a stacking +4), but it doesn't do that, due to some really crappy wording. I mean, come on.

Also, how would you fix the soulknife? I'm thinking of giving him fighter BAB, as well as a 4th level power progression, that way hes sort of a "psionic paladin", of sorts, although it'll probally be too weak.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Draco_Argentum »

The mind blade needs to do 2d6 damage with x3 or 19-20/x2 crit. Thats first level. Its a mind blade, what it looks like really dosen't have much to do with how deadly it is.

Plus he needs a real BAB.

That only fixes levels 1-3.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by User3 »

Two things...

One: I agree that the Soulknife sucks. However, this dosen't make Mr. Cordell a moron. He seems to add in these 'spur of the moment' ideas to his sourcebooks that seem cool at the time, but end up being terribly underpowered (take the 3.0 Psionics HB for example). However, he is still a very good conceptual game designer, and one he actually tries to balance someting it usually turns out well (3.5 Psion, for example).

Two: The Monk 'unarmed weakness' is a myth. The class has problems, but one of them is not Unarmed strike. If you don't belive me, look at the description of the Gauntlet in the PHB. Here is a weapon that does unarmed damage (generally better for a monk than any weapon), and is fully enchantable at normal costs. Any monk who dosen't use these is a fool or an RP nut.

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PS: For all those worried abot the Psychic warrior, although I agree that they should probably get good will saves (after all, they're basically clerics anyway...), I don't think they need it. They *Need* a good wisdom anyway. And they aren't weak. Check out Lordshade's Rapidstrike Elan Claw-master on the WotC boards if you don't believe me ;)
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Two: The Monk 'unarmed weakness' is a myth. The class has problems, but one of them is not Unarmed strike. If you don't belive me, look at the description of the Gauntlet in the PHB. Here is a weapon that does unarmed damage (generally better for a monk than any weapon), and is fully enchantable at normal costs. Any monk who dosen't use these is a fool or an RP nut.


One, the monk unarmed strike with gauntlets is specifically prohibited by the rules. Check out the FAQ.

Two, even if monks actually got away with it, they are so murdered by their lack of other relevant combat abilities and BAB that it doesn't even really matter.

Monks--still the worst core class. Even the bards can do some sorta-okay stuff with certain feats.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

What I intend to do is try to test one out in a campaign setting, from low levels to high levels.

I kinda get lost on this esoteric discussion, and I have to see it with my own eyes before I can decide what I want to do with the SOulknife.

I will say this: the monk in my party is actually one of the more powerful members. Whether that's due to the fact that the class is better than people give it credit for, or the fact that the rest of my players suck at min/maxing, I don't know. (to give an example, the fighter took 12 levels in core fighter, and didn't seem noticebly weaker than the druid, when I changed it retroactively to a feat every level, the player argued with me, saying I was making him too powerful. <shrug>)
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by RandomCasualty »

I dunno why people don't like the monk...

the soul knife sucks completely, I agree, but the monk is pretty good IMO.

The monk is the guy that gets tons of attacks, and I think that compensates well for his BaB, especially in 3.5.

A +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 itererative sequence isn't that much worse than +20/+15/+10/+5 unless you're fighting a dragon.

And the monk gets cool stuff like stunning fist.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Username17 »

That right there is some sucktastic min/maxxing.

The causes for Monks to do at all well are:

1> Blatant DM favoritism. Quite often the Monk is granted special admantite gauntlets that allow them to combine unarmed damage, big enhancement bonuses, and unique special abilities unmatched by the equipment of other characters.

2> Bizzare rule interpretations. I've seen people announce that, for example, they can magically enchant a set of gauntlets and flurry with TWF and get crazy amounts of attacks with magic damage and full Unarmed damage. Neither of those things stack.

3> Crazy-go-nuts stats. If all your stats are like 20+, the Monk stats having a rather formiddable AC.

4> Just plain terrible character design/play. If the party Wizard is running around casting fireballs on things, if the party druid is prepping all his spells as cures and fighting with a scimitar - it doesn't really matter what character class you are.

Every other class is, by the book, better than the Monk. The DM can, however, throw spanners into the works in the form of item assignment and rules interpretation which can alter the balance of power more than the sum total of all the abilities inherent to any class.

Furthermore, when a class is "better than the monk" that only means that they have better potential than the monk. If you underutilize the class features of a class, it will be underpowered. No matter what it is.

For example: the druid can be a front line Fighter by using Wildshape. This is just like being a front line fighter any other way except that instead of needing to invest money for armor and weapons, and stat points for Strength, Dex, and Con - you don't. This means that while being a front line fighter (every bit as good as any Fighter if you take advantage of spells like Barkskin and Greater Magic Fang), you can invest a small amount of the money you've saved into some wands of Cure Light Wounds - which completely takes care of the role of Healer, and all the rest of the money into utility items and all your stats into mental stats.

The net result of this is that you can fight as well as anyone, and still be the primary healer and still be the diplomat and still be the scout - all at the same time.

Or you can put our second highest stat into strength, drop all your money on a magical scimitar, and charge into battle like a Fighter in hide armor with a second class strength. Then you can actually prepare healing spells and be just like a cleric with no domain ability.

Just because the Druid chasis allows you to do everyone else's job as well or better than they can doesn't mean that you necessarily will. Instead, for example, you could arrange to do things the stupid way and just be a second rater your whole carrear.

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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083525041[/unixtime]]
Just because the Druid chasis allows you to do everyone else's job as well or better than they can doesn't mean that you necessarily will. Instead, for example, you could arrange to do things the stupid way and just be a second rater your whole carrear.


Well, sure if you compare everything to the druid, then the monk IS ass, but so is every other core class except maybe the cleric and the wizard, and they're still less than the druid.

The druid is completely insane. You get 2-5 dump stats, depending on what you wanna do and DM interpretation of the con/polymorph thing.

If the druid is your benchmark of comparison, then yeah... the monk blows in that context.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

that's not much of a post.

"If you use a standard to determine the fitness of soemthing, then yeah, you're right"

No offense dude, but you just denied the entire history of scientific method with that statement.

you need to set a benchmark of some sort, else you have nothing to compare it against.

I'm sure a soulknife with no other classes, or a monk with no other classes look pretty nice. However, you do need to compare it with soemthing, what is the most powerful class should be the given benchmark, if they're all equal to that, then you're good to go.

Now, I beleive that the druid should be nerfed. However, this isn't Druid NErf Central, this is . . .

Wait, what the hell are we talking about again?

Anyway, if you want to nerf the druid, do that first, as it's the best, and as such, should be the benchmark for power. But that's another thread altogether. Since it's for another thread, we use the PHB druid by default.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by RandomCasualty »

Well, it all depends where you set the standard is what I'm saying. Basically the standard is what defines what sucks and what doesn't.

If I use some uber broken build to define my standard of power, then everything is underpowered. If I use the commoner to define my standard of power then everything is overpowered.

The point is that you've got to set your standard in the middle on something reasonable. If you arranged the classes by power level, your standard should be in the dead center of that list to do the least changes.

If Frank analyzes everything by the druid, then yeah... of course there's nothing I can say contracting that the monk is a good class under that criteria. But to me, it proves nothing.

I could say the monk owns compared to the commoner or the warrior, and I'd be proving nothing.

Saying something is worse than the best is ultimately a futile argument and just as meaningless as "it's better than the worst."

Such an argument can't be refuted, but from a game balance standpoint it proves nothing. Until you've got a reasonable middle point that makes the majority of classes reasonably balanced, you can't ever hope to achieve any kind of balance.
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Re: What the hell is wrong with Cordell?

Post by Username17 »

I usually compare to the Core Rogue, although lately I've been thinking that comparisons should be made to the Wizard.

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