Scaling Martial Weapon Proficiency?

[angelfromanotherpin]

So, Frank's talked about how the longsword stops being an appropriate weapon after 2nd level. How would one remedy that?

What if something as basic as the class feature Martial Weapon Proficiency scaled like a Warlock Path? If it looked something like:

Martial Weapon Proficiency
Fluff: While other people carry sticks and throw rocks, you wield razor-sharp steel scientifically designed to inflict maximum face-stabbity.
Effects:
1st Level: Your weapons totally do another point of damage than other people's. Plus they might have a cool minor bonus, like that flail Disarm thing.

What would kick in at 3rd level? 5th? And so on?

[Voss]

It would probably be best if it scaled like the RoW feats (by BAB, rather than level).
Not sure if weapon proficiency is the way to go, to be honest.
A scaling weapon focus feat might work better (even if it applies to UA style weapon groups, types [slash/bludgeon/pierce] or whatever), something like-
1- +1 to hit
3- +2 damage
6 +3 to hit (total)
9 +5 damage (total)
12 +6 to hit (total)
15 +9 to damage (total)
18 +10 to hit (total)


I'm still not sure it scales right (I suspect its too low, because its a linear progression), but its a damn sight better than the pathetic focus/specialization feat chain that exists currently. I like the way it keeps lower BAB progressions several levels behind, but not totally useless, while a warrior can take a dip into a medium bab class without the end benefits of the feat.

[angelfromanotherpin]

No, see, because now you're 3rd level, you have +1 to hit, +2 to damage, and the Ogre is still owning your face. Or you're 18th level, you have +10 to hit, +9 to damage, and no-one cares.

I'm thinking there should be a weapon version of the Tome scaling armors. So, yes, a flail can be enchanted, but there's a bunch of cool stuff it gets just for being a flail wielded by someone who's bad-ass.

So at first level, you have a flail, which is a mace, except it has some extra disarm and trip utility. At 3rd level it does more damage, and maybe you're expert at using the chain to ignore shield bonuses. At 5th level it does more damage, and maybe you can spin that flail so fast it kind of helicopters you around. And so on, all the way up to 19th level, where it does hella more damage and you can spin that thing so fast it reverses time.

I'm not sure what should be part of 'I'm a fighter-type so I fight awesome,' what should be a part of 'using a flail is awesome,' and what should be a part of 'I took a super-cool flail feat so I have extra and also level-appropriate flail-related coolness.'

[PhoneLobster]

OK if you want to make it scale like ROW war feats you first have to take a look at the points at which ROW feats gain new abilities. Those points as I understand it were chosen for specific reasons and are somewhat uniform.

Also it probably shouldn't BE a feat at all.

The ROW feats already do a lot for weapons, and you don't want to take some dumb "my weapon works" feat in place of a ROW feat. There are better things to do with feats in general.

No. If you want to do this you should make a weapon list and tie the scaling abilities to the weapons, just like the armour list from ROW. If you choose to hit things with a glaive you just plain get whatever abilities are tied to it according to your BAB or skill ranks, which you have invested in ANYWAY, or whatever.

Then you get things like why does the rogue use short swords rather than battle axes? Because they get their funky "I'm a short sword" bonuses faster with skill ranks compared to the slowed BAB on a battle axe.

However meanwhile if you recall the magic sword discussion from a while back I think you might notice that Frank and K are at least looking at this and planning to deal with it by making MAGIC weapons scale with character level, in one of a number of ways.

So anyway I'd say do a ROW armour type scaling item ability list for items anyone can pick up and with good reasons for someone with tumble to use mithril daggers, or someone with BAB to use adamantium great axes. And be aware that the bigger raw numbers are pretty much handled by feats, classes and presumably magical weapon junk.

And while your at it do what the amour list did for clothes. Make entries with compelling reasons for holding things other than a weapon in your hands in (or out of) combat, like a "I'm holding a spell book in one hand" item entry with small useful gimmicks as concentration ranks go up. Or whatever.

Hell I was thinking of writing one up myself. But I'm supposed to be working right now...

[angelfromanotherpin]

That's more or less what I was trying to say, PhoneLobster, though my thoughts were scattered, so I'm not surprised it didn't communicate well.

Although, the Torch/Spellbook/Other stuff never occurred to me. That could be pretty cool.

[tzor]

1187021762[/unixtime]]So, Frank's talked about how the longsword stops being an appropriate weapon after 2nd level. How would one remedy that?

I think the problem is one of rule fundamentals. Therefore I think you need to fundamentally look at the rules. (Then if necessary hide it as a "feat.")

Speed factors. You need to bring back speed factors. Basically in 3E you can wield a longsword as fast as you can wield a greatsword. That's not right. You don't want to go overboard but it's generally not right.

1E Speed factors were basically init adjusters. That's not right for 3E, but I'm not stealing the mechanics just the spirit of the rule. Multiple attacks were exceptionally rare in 1E, while they are more common in 3E. So let's look at this and come up with a speed factor adjustment.

The speed factor adjustment would apply not on the init but on the multi-attack point in the BAB. Normal BAB would has a +5 level so one gets 2 attacks at +6, 3 at +11 and so on. The idea is to grant a bonus to masterwork weapons of a specific type to make that level a +4 with the weapon. So you would get 2 attacks at +5, 3 attacks at +9 and 4 attacks at +13.

That's probably too little too late, but it gives an idea of how to tweak weapons. You need to move from the attitude that a weapon is simply a damage factor and give the longsword an outright advantage in some way.

The reason why people didn't go about running with great axes was that longswords had an advantage. Unless they get that advantage no one will use them. Simple as that.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Speed factors. You need to bring back speed factors. Basically in 3E you can wield a longsword as fast as you can wield a greatsword. That's not right. You don't want to go overboard but it's generally not right.

1. Greatswords are, in fact, faster to wield than longswords. Generally, putting two hands on a weapon immediately brings a vast improvement to your ability to wield it.
2. Don't get your realism in my D&D. All a two-handed weapon has to be worth is whatever benefit you get from a shield.

You need to move from the attitude that a weapon is simply a damage factor and give the longsword an outright advantage in some way.

3. I'm all for differentiating weapons, but the biggest problem with weapons as they stand is that they don't hurt enough when you hit someone. The Tome Barbarian has that extra hurt built right in, and I think some version of that should be standard for all fighter-types, hence building it into the class feature of MWP.

The reason why people didn't go about running with great axes was that longswords had an advantage. Unless they get that advantage no one will use them. Simple as that.

4. The biggest advantage a longsword had was that you could carry a shield at the same time.

[MrWaeseL]

Additional bonuses just pushes people off the RNG and makes everyone frustrated without fixing the problem.

Ex. Bob the fighter will always hit an AC that Jim the rogue has a decent chance of hitting, while Jim will never hit an AC that Bob has a decent chance of hitting.
Meanwhile, Jack the wizard is still miles better than both of them combined.

[Username17]

So, Frank's talked about how the longsword stops being an appropriate weapon after 2nd level. How would one remedy that?

Our method was simply to allow any character to gain proficiency with whatever weapon that they happened to be using, while Martial Weapon users could learn to use specific weapons faster and Fighters could learn new weapons fastest of all. Then we just assume that high level characters will end up using serpent staves, mirror shard swords, demon whips, and tamed thunderbolts.

The speed factor adjustment would apply not on the init but on the multi-attack point in the BAB. Normal BAB would has a +5 level so one gets 2 attacks at +6, 3 at +11 and so on. The idea is to grant a bonus to masterwork weapons of a specific type to make that level a +4 with the weapon. So you would get 2 attacks at +5, 3 attacks at +9 and 4 attacks at +13.

Everquest d20 does this. It has the apparently intended effect of causing players to trade in weapons as they gain levels. Characters get enough bonuses (from Strength, for example) that the benefits of a greatsword are less than getting an extra attack with a dagger. After that, it's just like Power Attacking where you only pay on subsequent attacks but get a damage bonus every attack. Ugh. It's setting appropriate for people to have their 7th level weapon and their 8th level weapon, but it is such bullshit.

Really, the whole -5 BAB attacks was a shit idea that repeatedly kicks Fighters in the jibblies at high levels. I understand why they did it, but it shouldn't be a sacred cow. Ultimately the effect on the game was negative both in terms of complexity and balance.

And while your at it do what the amour list did for clothes. Make entries with compelling reasons for holding things other than a weapon in your hands in (or out of) combat, like a "I'm holding a spell book in one hand" item entry with small useful gimmicks as concentration ranks go up. Or whatever.

Makai Kingdoms to the rescue.

-Username17

[Koumei]

1187102543[/unixtime]]
Makai Kingdoms to the rescue.

Forget Makai Kingdom (awesome though it is), think Phantom Brave (made by the same people). You can not only wield rocks, trees, grass, warning signs, shopping trolleys (well, minecarts), crates and starfish, they also give you special attacks unique to those weapons. You can then transfer those attacks into other weapons, which is really strange for some, like falling asleep at the wheel of a greatsword and driving over your enemy.

MK tended not to give any benefits to most of the random crap you could theoretically wield. PB made it a legitimate tactic. Heck, you even got special attacks for wielding other people.

...I think I want to take "Combat School" and apply it to "other people". That'd be awesome.

[the_taken]

Hmmm... "Combat School : Other People." I could have used that for The Stupid Brothers Build.

[Leress]

*cups hand to ear* Hark! Did I hear the names of Nippon Ichi Games!

I am with Koumei on this one, Phantom Brave did make it more worth you trouble to get every tree, bush, cart, barrel, and weapon you could get you hands on. It it didn't give you new abilities at least you could get more power and increase the level that the weapon could achieve.

Don't forget giving titles to your units, dungeons, and weapons which further gave them abilities and power.

[Koumei]

I loved the titles. Whether for "cheating" (applying Failure title to high level dungeons for rapid leveling (then getting your ass kicked by the boss at the end)), or just for making people stronger - "My Hero" and "Shiny" spring to mind.

Though having the "Erotic" title provided ours of hilarity. Okay, minutes of amusement. "Erotic Old Man", "Erotic Tree", "Erotic Staff" etc.

I suppose we can make do with special materials and enhancements instead of titles in D&D.

[Prak]

makes me think of my Wild Elf Brb Baragos... he is primarily known for weilding the party cleric as a good aligned thrown weapon against an undead and an enemy rogue as a melee weapon against other rogues...

and he was proficient in other people because he had guantlets made with that spell that makes you proficient in whatever you pick up...

also makes me think of my WoD werewolf Wishbone who had the thrown specialty "people"...


hmm... the tome series definately needs a feat centered on weilding other people...

[shizuo]

When it comes to scaling it might work to any weapon and benefits that who holds the weapon.Well I wonder if admins will make one for the spellbooks.

[angelfromanotherpin]

[Seerow]

For what it's worth, in my games I made it so Weapon Focus can be used to add 1 point worth of weapon special properties* to your chosen weapon, and you can change what that point is with a move action. Greater Weapon Focus adds a second point, and lets you swap as a swift action. It actually works out pretty well because it lets your sword master do things like make a lunge at a foe just out of his reach. Or treat his sword as a double weapon so can take extra attacks with a single weapon as though he were two weapon fighting. And so on.

Adapting the idea to Tomes would probably roll that into a single feat, let it apply to all weapons (or a weapon group, whichever), and have the action cost drop down to free by the end. And maybe add some unique high level options available for people who have the feat.


*I made a list of all of the weapon special properties in the game, and added a few others besides, and assigned a value of either .5 or 1 point. Adding reach is 1 point, +1 to hit is 1 point, so on. Adding a +2 untyped bonus to a combat maneuver or +1 damage is .5 points. Masterwork weapons give a bonus slot instead of a flat +1 to hit, to introduce some more variety.

[OgreBattle]

How about your reach increases by 5ft every 3 points of BAB.

And everyone gets whirlwind attack, because clearing mooks is trivial.

[Guyr Adamantine]

7 year thread necromancy as a first post. Impressive.

[Aryxbez]

Welcome to the Gaming Den, leave your ego at the door, and enjoy your perusal. Sounds like I don't need to suggest how some good stuff in the older threads, and if you find any treasures let us know, there's a thread for that. Also, I totally liked Durarara! so nice touch.

hmm... the tome series definately needs a feat centered on weilding other people...

I've no doubts since the years you said that, you became aware of this feat (Foe Wielder)