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Giant Crabs!!!!
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Cielingcat
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Six CR 1 friends would allow you to run out of the crab's field of vision, so a properly set up Tome party won't die.
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Iaimeki
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A good ECL 5 party will be composed of mostly casters, so between wild shape and the spell they'll be able to fly and pick it off. There's still a good chance of casualties, but it's not nearly as dangerous.
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erik
King


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh, you can kill it fairly easily with a level 3 party if you know about it ahead of time. Mount up on horses and pepper it with arrows.

But this critter seems more like a random/environmental encounter which isn't intended to be the locally well known threat to your 3rd level ass that it is. So your discovery of it almost certainly comes with a toe tag for one adventurer.

If you're lucky you can ride away. If not, there's always hiding, or hoping your wizard's glitterdust gives you enough time to either kill it or run away.


By the by, this has been one of my favorite rants as well. I bookmarked it long ago, and reread it from time to time for a chuckle. Heh, I even made my wife read it.
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bitnine
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Current CRs for many types of creatures, particularly mindless brutes, are bullshit. What there should be are two things:

1. Coherent rules or guidelines for diminished returns for trivialized/manufactured encounters.
2. Consistent CRs that scale with the strength and threat of the creature and allow item 1 to adjust on a case by case basis.

Besides, even without a formal structure, I'd bet that most DMs use some form of #1 if such situations ever come up. (And yes, the scaling in #2 shouldn't be a straight line, but should at least somewhat account for the relevance of a creature's strength and how it forms the basis for a challenge.)
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Brobdingnagian
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hah! You said 'consistent' in regards to D&D!

...

Wait, you're not joking, are you?
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Strung Nether
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Necroing this for a good reason: The link in the first post is now broken, and I would hate for this to be forgotten. Is there a new link anywhere?
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ishy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Here you go
((they changed the old archives from www.wizards.com to archive.wizards.com))
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Antariuk
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Since it's reactivated, I might as well report that a while ago I used these our beloved crabs to give a 6th level Pathfinder group a run for their money. The first one got utterly splashed by the Magus with his one big trick, but then the other crabs closed in and... feelings were being had. Nobody died, but they went out of their way to not wander around the beaches anymore after that. Good crabs.
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spongeknight
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Antariuk wrote:
Since it's reactivated, I might as well report that a while ago I used these our beloved crabs to give a 6th level Pathfinder group a run for their money. The first one got utterly splashed by the Magus with his one big trick, but then the other crabs closed in and... feelings were being had. Nobody died, but they went out of their way to not wander around the beaches anymore after that. Good crabs.


Heh. All of my players have heard this rant before- one of them read it to our gaming table while we were shooting the shit one day. The looks on their faces when I pulled out one of these bad boys on an encounter... they suddenly realized there were a few NPC guards with them and sacrificed those poor bastards to the Giant Crab while they engaged it from range. Good times.
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Dogbert
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Frank, complaining that James Jacobs' screeds don't make sense is like complaining Requiem for a Dream is too sad.

You just sacrificed part of you liver reading, and you have only yourself to blame.
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icyshadowlord
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I remember this blasted thing. I'm glad my DM never threw one at my first group.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And then there's the Monstrous Crab in It's Wet Outside. If anything, they're over CR'd, with the small monstrous crab at CR 1/2, with 8 hp and a +1 melee 1d4 claw attack and +0 grapple. You could send in the dwarf knight and just let him round up dinner without a scratch. The large crab is CR 4 with 36 hp, a pair of +8 melee 1d8+5 claw attack, +17 grapple and 2d8+5 constrict. Admittedly, not so much a "let the dwarf fighter feel good" fight, but a 4th level party wouldn't be too put out.

And then there's the CR 13 colossal monstrous crab that has 315 hp, but gets kited to death by wands of fireball, because, sure, the wizard doesn't have some fight-ending 7th level spell (Fort on this thing is +28), but it doesn't matter, because it's level 13 and there's literally no reason to sit on the ground and slog things out.
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In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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phlapjackage
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Being from the south (home of many delicious seafood dishes), my party's reaction to hearing that they were facing a giant crab was to lick their lips and start wondering where they could find a giant slab of butter...

"Maybe if it's in water and we fireball it, that would count as boiling it?"
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How come nobody has mentioned hitting its weakpoint for massive damage yet?
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

phlapjackage wrote:
Being from the south (home of many delicious seafood dishes), my party's reaction to hearing that they were facing a giant crab was to lick their lips and start wondering where they could find a giant slab of butter...

"Maybe if it's in water and we fireball it, that would count as boiling it?"


Are there stats for giant prawn
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talozin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There was a giant crayfish in "The Village of Hommlet." I've honestly lost track of how many gumbo jokes I've heard made about it.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Not something I ever expected to see.
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srcs
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Holy shit! Did you see that stupid Giant Crab linked from Skip's Tirade about how only through Zen can Item Prices be determined through the power of a rigid formulae? Here it is again (half way down the page):
Giant Fvcking Crabs! Scroll about halfway down page!

OK, what do we notice?

First of all, it's CR three. And it's a bruiser. But it's also a fast bruiser - land speed of 40 and has a swim speed. It's got real bruiser status - large size and a 13.5 point attack. Two 13.5 point attacks.

Secondly, unlike other CR 3 bruisers, its relatively weak Will save means precisely dick, because it's a Vermin, and immune to anything a 3rd level party can dish out with a Will save.

Finally, we note that it has improved grab and a grapple bonus of 19. Also, it has 66 hit points and an AC of 19.

So how does combat with it work out? Like this, every damn time:

Round One: Giant Crab charges 80 feet and reaches out and touches someone (10' reach) for a +12 attack bonus. Then it does 13.5 damage. Then it Grapples, which it wins, and inflicts another 13.5 damage of constriction.

Round 2: Having just inflicted 27 points of damage on a 3rd level character in one round, it hurls the bloody carcass over its head and repeats the process with some other hapless 3rd level PC who happens to be within its 90 foot charge range.

Round 3: Having dispatched 2 PCs, it takes out the third PC.

Round Four: Assuming that the final character has not gotten a rush of brains to the head and hid, the Crab finishes off the last player character and dances around.

Motherfvckers! What the hell CR mismanagement is that shit!? This isn't one of those "It's a huge ass scorpion, dumbass, don't melee it!" problems - this is CR 3. You don't have any choice.




En garde, bitches.

-Frank

MOD EDIT: The original link no longer worked. It has now been updated.


Dunno what you're talking about with the play by play, I win 7 out of 10 grapple checks with m crabs, and 27 damage isn't even close to enough to kill a level 3 (a DD can have 48 hp at 3, and that's before books, items, throne of the gods, etc)

typical fight for my party, we'll deal about 35 missile damage before it closes; when it gets in melee it's toast, we surround it with halberds, that's 1d10 +9 (+6 from 18/00 str, +3 from specialization and two handed style, two points each) before crits on a single character, usually doesn't live long enough to get a single hit in


Last edited by srcs on Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pariah Dog
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's a 3.0/3.5 monster and you're spouting AD&D stats there.

And 27 HP is the average a fighter with a +2 Con mod.

Stahlseele wrote:
How come nobody has mentioned hitting its weakpoint for massive damage yet?


Done that once in a higher level campaign with some giant adamantine crab the DM pulled out his ass. Unsurprisingly the melee guy was getting crushed to death I was playing an archery rangerhybrid, and could not break the things massive DR FUCK YOU/Adamantine without breaking out my adamantine arrows (Which I was down to 1), pop magic quiver that gives Hunter's Mercy on next drawn shot x times a day, fire arrow. Crit pushes damage into the Save or Die massive damage threshold, DC being NOT A 1. Crab fails.

The DM did not appreciate me memeing that.


Last edited by Pariah Dog on Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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erik
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

srcs wrote:

Dunno what you're talking about with the play by play, I win 7 out of 10 grapple checks with m crabs, and 27 damage isn't even close to enough to kill a level 3 (a DD can have 48 hp at 3, and that's before books, items, throne of the gods, etc)

typical fight for my party, we'll deal about 35 missile damage before it closes; when it gets in melee it's toast, we surround it with halberds, that's 1d10 +9 (+6 from 18/00 str, +3 from specialization and two handed style, two points each) before crits on a single character, usually doesn't live long enough to get a single hit in


Poe's Law is strong with this one. I cannot tell if srcs was trying to be funny by acting stupid, or if that was just genuine. The closer I look at it, the dumber it gets.

I really want to believe it is a joke. Even ignoring that someone couldn't tell that something was up in comparing a 3rd edition monster vs. older edition stats. I mean, why not call out that terrible AC of 19, if you're judging it by older edition standards? I mean, those crabs are terrible, they don't even have a Comeliness stat! (but I'd still hit it)

And in what monty haul to the max game was it ever expected to start with 18/00 on a level 3 character and think that it is conservative to not include artifacts in your calculations?
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Voss
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think it might be 'all experience is with Baldurs gate enhanced edition,' which would explain the books and DD (dwarven defender), and the general tailoring that would allow an entire party to have 18/00 and inexplicably halberds.

Though there aren't any giant crabs, so... Who knows.
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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

srcs wrote:
Dunno what you're talking about with the play by play, I win 7 out of 10 grapple checks with m crabs, and 27 damage isn't even close to enough to kill a level 3 (a DD can have 48 hp at 3, and that's before books, items, throne of the gods, etc)

typical fight for my party, we'll deal about 35 missile damage before it closes; when it gets in melee it's toast, we surround it with halberds, that's 1d10 +9 (+6 from 18/00 str, +3 from specialization and two handed style, two points each) before crits on a single character, usually doesn't live long enough to get a single hit in

Yeah, yeah. But this is all useless if you don't silence the bell tower, so don't expect us to get impressed with weak numbers like these.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

nockermensch wrote:
srcs wrote:
Dunno what you're talking about with the play by play, I win 7 out of 10 grapple checks with m crabs, and 27 damage isn't even close to enough to kill a level 3 (a DD can have 48 hp at 3, and that's before books, items, throne of the gods, etc)

typical fight for my party, we'll deal about 35 missile damage before it closes; when it gets in melee it's toast, we surround it with halberds, that's 1d10 +9 (+6 from 18/00 str, +3 from specialization and two handed style, two points each) before crits on a single character, usually doesn't live long enough to get a single hit in

Yeah, yeah. But this is all useless if you don't silence the bell tower, so don't expect us to get impressed with weak numbers like these.


This is actually a very good joke.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I mean, sure, srcs, a properly prepared and built party could hypothetically take down a giant crab.

But the fucking thing is presented as being CR 3. CR 3 means a party of four third level characters should have a very good chance of beating it using no more than 20% of their resources. If the creature requires the party to be specifically prepared for it, and be really strong third level characters, it's not a fucking CR 3.

Like, hypothetically, a third level dwarf barbarian or some shit like that could, best case scenario, have almost 60 hp before raging. Then they rage and hit 65. So they can stand up to a round of the crab's attacks. We can assume for the sake of argument this fucking barbarian got two 18s at chargen, and put the other in Str, so when it rages and swings in with its great-whatever d12 weapon, its average damage is 15.5.

Lets say the party also has an optimized rogue. Fuck, we'll say they're weirdly optimized and are a kobold rogue. So they can have a 20 dex, 30 ft speed, and if they wear studded leather, an AC of 20 before they use Dodge or whatever. This makes it slightly less likely the crab will hit and gib them. Then they take Dodge at first level and two-weapon fighting at 3nd. So they probably go first in initiative, but they hold till after the barbarian, so that they can then charge in and flank. They're using a pair of shortswords, and they have +2d6 sneak attack, so their average damage per round is 19 if they manage to walk into the game with a 10 str after the kobold's -4.

So that's a hypothetical 34 damage after just two PCs attack. The first one has a good chance to survive into round two when hit, the second one has a decent chance of not getting hit. Though, with the crab having two +10 attacks per round, the crab only needs an 11 or better to hit the rogue. The rogue's best chance of not being hit is for the crab to attack the barbarian first.

The best trick a 3rd level arcane caster has for this is staying out of range while the barbarian and rogue keep it occupied, and maybe cast Seeking Ray, dealing 14 electric damage on average. This is a ranged touch attack, so it has a good chance to hit the crab, and it has the nice side benefit of improving the arcanist's future rays' attack rolls. But I sure as hell don't know of another 2nd level spell that deals 4d6 or more damage. And the party really has to hope to take this thing out in one round.

Lets say your party cleric has a serious hard-on for summoning, and so has the Summoning domain, and lets say they get the GM to approve a Conjuration domain that gives Spell Focus (Conjuration) as its granted power, much like Domination give Spell Focus (Enchantment). And since we're making a magical christmas land summoner, lets say that domain gives Summon Nature's Ally 1, allowing this cleric to take Greenbound Summoner, and then they take Augment Summoning. Fuck, lets say they're a human, so they get a third feat, and they take Domain Focus, letting them cast spells in the Summoning Domain at +1 CL. Using Stormwrack, they can summon their own giant crab, albeit a Medium one from Stormwrack, but it sticks around for six rounds, and its stats look like this-

Summoned Crab
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So this summoned crab has an average per turn damage of 31. And it can stand up to the 3.0 monstrous crab pretty well with its DR and fast healing (ie, the monstrous crab can't overcome its DR, so it only does 3.5 on average per attack, and the summoned crab heals 3 per turn.

If the party gets a lucky first round, it deals 79 damage and kills the monstrous crab, with style points for using their own giant crab to do so. Of course, as usual, a party of all clerics could do even better, just all summoning their own giant plant crab and doing 124 damage to the monstrous crab. Ie, enough to kill it twice. Because Clerics.



So an optimized party that happens to be built such that it can compete with something like the Monstrous Crab could easily take it out in a round or two. If they're lucky on initiative. But that's a party built with this old thing in mind.

I feel it should be pointed out that I think the claw damage on the monstrous crab is actually an error, as I don't recall 3.5 adding str and a half to claws, but I could be wrong. Also, it should be pointed out that a large crab in 3.5 stats (in Stormwrack), has one less HD and is CR 4... Oh, and a 20 ft land speed.



Edit: Hell, a 3rd level party could also have some bolts dipped in Luhix powder (2000 gp per dose) and give the monstrous crab an overdose death from 120+' away. That doesn't mean CR 3 is an appropriate CR. Even if the party buys a few scrolls of Minor Creation instead of even a single dose of Luhix, and makes some ambiguous amount of Luhix that add up to a cubic foot.
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Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


Last edited by Prak on Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:23 pm; edited 3 times in total
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erik
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Giant Crabs!!!! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, that's way over complicated and as such not the "best" way, Prak.

Lemme scroll up to the top of this page.

erik from 2007 wrote:
Oh, you can kill it fairly easily with a level 3 party if you know about it ahead of time. Mount up on horses and pepper it with arrows.


Also your crab stat quote block says it is a plant creature. Not sure if I beleaf that is correct.
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