Fixed-Form Polymorph

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Which means you track two sets of hit points . . .

OK, you're starting to convince me it's not worth the trouble to ignore the hit point changes. What if hit points are added for con bonuses, but not subtracted for con negatives?
RandomCasualty
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082685131[/unixtime]]
Four: Balancing things against Righteous Might is a waste of your time.

If you want to create a polymorph based on granting bonuses, I think RM is the perfect place to start, and here's why...

A) It changes your shape and makes you tougher.
B) It's 5th level polymorph is 4th (so RM is a boundary of sorts power wise)


Even pretending that there is a Polymorph tradition to break from is laughable. The game has been going in various incarnations for nearly forty years now, and the most current version of shapechanging hasn't ever been in place for more than 8 months - and that includes the period before the internet when new rules were disseminated on grainy photo copies by fans.


This is true, in fact it's damn true, it needs to be stressed.

In 2E polymorphing for combat forms pretty much sucked, you'd be an idiot to do it. Your AC totally sucked, you didn't do that much more damage, and it basically existed. It wasn't a fighter buff at all. Basically it's only reason of existing was to give wizards and druids somewhat of a fighting chance. Since you didn't gain the strength of whatever you turned into an only the attack routines and natural attacks + the AC, It was pretty much crap as your magical items didn't work for you by default, so your girdle of giant strength was absolutely useless to a dragon form. It was why polymorph any object was so powerful in 2E, because it really didn't matter if you coudl become a dragon as you still were better off with your +5 sword.

Not to mention it didn't penetrate 2nd edition weapon immunities, so fighting anything that required magic weapons was a complete lost cause.

And I bring this up to say that there's no reason polymorph has to be uber, or that it has to be for fighters. Nobody said it has to be better than righteous might, which seems to be the unspoken theme of many people, especially those trying to get a +16 strength polymorph as a 4th level spell.

You're absolutely right Frank, there is no standard for polymorph... so lets just work to design a balanced 4th level spell and forget about any traditions.
Username17
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

It's 5th level polymorph is 4th


Righteous Might is a Cleric Spell. Clerics get:

* An extra good save.
* Extra weapon Proficiencies.
* The ability to cast spells in armor or with a shield without penalty.
* Heavy Armor Proficiency.
* Shield Proficiency.
* Extra spells per day.
* Turn Undead.
* The ability to prepare two spells in every slot.
* Two Domain Abilities.
* 4 hit points at first level and 2 hit points each additional level.
* An extra point of BAB for every four levels from now until forever.
* The automatic learning of every single spell on their spell list without spending time.
* The automatic learning of every single spell on their spell list without spending money.
* The automatic learning of every single spell on their spell list without being jerked around by the DM over whether a spell is available or not.

---

All because supposedly their spells are not as good. That's a huge pile of advantages, every single one of them is useful and most of which are directly applicable to hitting people with a brick.

You cannot look at any Cleric spell and use it as any kind of boundary on what the maximum power of a wizard spell is, because supposedly the wizard is balanced by having massively superior spells.

Not just "per level" - but overall. When the Wizard turns all giant it had better be better in every way than the Cleric doing the same thing because he's worse in every way until he does.

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082685131[/unixtime]] The game has been going in various incarnations for nearly forty years now, and the most current version of shapechanging hasn't ever been in place for more than 8 months - and that includes the period before the internet when new rules were disseminated on grainy photo copies by fans.

-Username17
Whoa.

1974 onwards, yes. Where does the other 10 years come from?
Username17
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

1974 onwards, yes. Where does the other 10 years come from?


The game arose out of mimeographed historicals/fantasy combat rules from the sixties.

"I want to field an army of knights"
"Fine, I'm getting a dragon."
"A what?"
"A dragon. To fight your knights with. I figure a dragon has got to be the equivalent of a whole unit of cavalry."

"Fine. But I get a powerful prince, who can actually kill dragons."

"In fact, screw the army, I just want one of those princes and a dragon."

....

And that's how D&D was born. And people have had shape shifting rules that didn't work since then.

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RandomCasualty
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082749905[/unixtime]]
Not just "per level" - but overall. When the Wizard turns all giant it had better be better in every way than the Cleric doing the same thing because he's worse in every way until he does.


The wizard himself sure... but if he's turning a fighter into giant size, a 4th level spell is a 4th level spell. Righteous might is actually personal range only so it's a bit more powerful than a fighter should be getting probably.

I have no problem with a personal range spell for wizards that gives them pretty huge bonuses, you still have to watch out for fighter mage builds with wands however if it's a 4th level spell, which could be dangerous.

Though actually I'd think we could fix that by just saying that personal range spells can't be put into magical items. I don't think they should be able to anyway.

Anyway this goes back to what I've been saying all along on both this thread and the other thread about building a separate spell for a personal buff to the caster and a separate spell to buff fighters, because they both have to be balanced differently.

Anything that exceeds righteous might in terms of power frankly shouldn't be thrown in the hands of a pure fighter, because righteous might isn't even supposed to be something a fighter can get, so if whatever buff you come up with for the fighter is a lot better than RM, then it's overpowered.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

The wizard himself sure... but if he's turning a fighter into giant size, a 4th level spell is a 4th level spell.


Bullshit.

The Wizard is paying more to be able to transform the Fighter into Giant Size. So the Fighter should be getting more out of it because the party is spending more to get that ability.

The wizard's cost vs. a cleric is charged regardless of whether he is direct or indirect recipient of the benefits of the spells which he ends up casting.

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I just don't see how a +16 str bonus, w/ a two-jump size increase to huge, is better than RM. It sucks to jump in size two levels. You have a -4 to hit w/ your weapons, assuming you can even use them. So, a fighter buffed to Huge w/ this version of polymorph has a net affect of +2 to hit, +8 to damage, no change to weapon damage. A cleric, OTOH, gets +3 to hit, +4 to damage, +1 to +3.5 to weapon damage.

So, let's compare. RM=+3 to hit, +5 to +7.5 to damage. Polymorph=+2 to hit, +8 to damage. This ignores how much RM rocks in other ways.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

I'm assuming we are not using 3.5 weapon size rules, actually, as they make no sense at all and end up forbidding people from throwing base balls or stabbing each other with kitchen knives.

Nevertheless, using even relatively sensible 3rd edition weapon size rules - growing two size categories is disadvantageous. We'll start with how very much easier it is to flank you when you have 4 square to your name. Then we'll move on to the fact that your touch AC completely tanks, then we'll go on to note that the size penalty to attacks comes up regardless of whether you are making an attack which benefits from your size and strength or not.

Gaining size - even with the notable increase in strength - is very much a mixed blessing. There's a reason why in the days before standardized character facings models with small inherent base sizes were highly prized.

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Frank, I hate the 3.5 sizing rules as much as you do, and have been flamed aplenty for that. But, at the moment, they're here, they're weird, and we have to use them. So, jumping up in size really sucks for 3.5, even more than just the tactical problems 3.0 gave you.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

But, at the moment, they're here, they're weird, and we have to use them.


What the hell?

I don't have to play with Initiate of Mystra, and I don't have to play with 3.5 Weapon Size Rules.

Seriously. I play in "3.5 games" where we don't use that crazy crap. I have never played in a game where people have used those rules - I've seen people argue for them, and I've always been able to laugh them down.

Humans can't pick up and throw baseballs. It has literally no advantage whatsoever over the normal 3rd edition weapon rules. Even the weird edge cases where you can use wrong sized weaponry in order to inflict more damage are still there.

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RandomCasualty
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtim8e wrote:1082752571[/unixtime]]
Bullshit.

The Wizard is paying more to be able to transform the Fighter into Giant Size. So the Fighter should be getting more out of it because the party is spending more to get that ability.


Yeah, well if I'm buying a magic item, they cost the exact same thing... So I could care less if its a wizard or a cleric spell that the item uses. So long as we have magical items that are based exclusively on spell level, we have to stick by that. Now, if we wanted to allow wizards to cast 2nd level+ spells sooner than clerics, I'd be all for something like that, because it keeps the magic item cost system intact. That'd be the best way to do it really.

But a 3rd level spell should be a 3rd level spell, just like a 3rd level character should be a 3rd level character.

As a rogue with UMD it's not harder for me to use a wizard wand than a cleric wand.

Also keep in mind that the cleric can only RM himself, the wizard's advantage is he can cast this buff on other people. That would make it stronger in some ways.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

The costs on magic items make no sense and are totally broken. You are just hiding behind the "unlimited charges command activated cure light wounds" dilemma.

It's not a valid argument. Cure Light Wounds completely breaks the magic item creation rules - but it sure isn't an overpowered spell. Saying "This spell breaks the magic item creation system" doesn't mean that the spell has to be scrapped - otherwise we'd have to scrap almost all the spells.

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Frank. I hear you. There's at least 1/2 dozen things blatantly stupid w/ 3.5 weapons, and another dozen that are just annoying. But I'm not revamping the weapons system here. Your commenting on an aside that addresses the contention that RM is "weaker" than polymorph b/c huge size comes w/ +16 str.

I'm trying to make a polymorph spell work, though. Can we refocus?

I'm considering revamping size bonuses (for small/med) to +4 (med), +8 (large), +12 (huge). Problems with that?
RandomCasualty
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

A +12 initially sounds like a lot, but it could work depending on how the spell itself is written out otherwise. It's always possible to also balance it if it's too powerful by making it a 1 round casting time with a 1 round/level duration... that usually tends to work.
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