Fixed-Form Polymorph

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The_Hanged_Man
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Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I'm starting this thread to discuss Polymorph as a fixed-form spell b/c the other thread has too many options to keep straight.

Here's a framework.

A. Polymorph applies the size change templates from the MM. Increasing in size applies the size increases, decreasing in size applies them in reverse. You get a basic Claw/Claw/Bite natural attack form, or Bite/Improved Grab/Constriction. This is 1d4/1d4/1d6 at medium size.

Example: Increasing from Medium to Large provides +8 str, +4 con, +4 NA, -2 dex, -1 AC, -1 to hit. You can choose one of two forms, long or tall. Tall has 10' reach, long has double carrying capacity. You can have a 1d6/1d6/2d6 natural attack, or 2d6 w/ IG and constriction.

Exceptions:

1. The Small => medium, and Medium => small, shouldn't follow the templates. Small => Large applies the Medium to Large template, except for changing size to hit and AC modifiers. Medium => Tiny applies the Small => Tiny, except for size to hit and AC modifiers. My reasoning is that small and medium characters don't differ as much as the templates, and so applying them both is a reach.

2. Going smaller should have more benefits than the templates give. I don't know what, exactly. It shouldn't take away NA, for example, but should add it.

3. Changing within the same size (counting small and medium as one size) should get you something. Small stat buffs? Say, a total of +10, no more than +5 to any one ability?

B. Changing within your own size gets you special abilities and qualities, like flying, waterbreathing, echolocation, special attack forms besides IG.

C. Going up in level increases the changes you can make. For example, you can go up or down in size and add special abilities.

D. Going up in level should allow you to do some cool things Polymorph doesn't allow you to do currently, like dragon's breath, blinking, etc.

E. Whether this is one spell that scales, or several spells, doesn't matter at the moment b/c I don't know what exactly the spell does. But if it is different spells, instead of out and out changing from level to level, the spells should get progressively stronger while granting the same basic powers.

* * *

I just put this out here as a start, so don't bother w/ the full o' stupid comments.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

Well, the thing with the size templates is that you can really only shift one size to make it balanced. The best you can do is become one size catagory bigger, otherwise you're handing out a potential +16 stackable bonus to strength, and that's too much for any 4th level spell to be giving. A spell that grants a +16 to strength is pretty much a must take right there, without any other abilities.

As for changing within your own size a +4 str, +2 con should be ok. It's half what a true size change would give you. If you want less than that, then perhaps a +2 strength only.

As for the multiple spells versus single spell question, I vote for multiple spells. Buffs tend to get out of hand when they scale, and I suspect that it would happen with this spell. I would propose no scaling, and a series of spells that build off of each other.

As for going smaller, I'm not really sure what benefits to give. You should be weaker... Mostly small forms should be used for recon and other non-combat stuff. I can't think of many instances when you should ever want a small form for combat unless you've got a tight crawlspace to fight in.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

The real problem with sizes is that they don't make any sense. This is primarily a problem with the fact that strength doesn't make any sense.

Here's the problem:

When you advance from Strength 30 to Strength 35 - your carrying capacity is doubled. That means that it's exponential.

But look at the bottom of the chart - it doesn't really work that way any more. The floobyness in the chart makes squirrels have a strength minimum of 1 - which means that there's this conceptual signoidal curve built into the bottom - which is unfortunately in the region where players have to care.

The way Strength should work is to simply scale exponentially all the way up and down - into deep negative numbers. The minimum strength to not be paralyzed should be size dependent. The carrying capacity multiple should be the same for each size increase. A very powerful ant has the lifting capacity which is 160,000th that of a human - and it is fine. Which means that it should be getting about 2^-14 the lifting capacity from its strength score. So its strength should be about -60 (a -35 penalty). That makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?

When all creatures have a minimum strength of 1 to stand up, it means that any miniscule creature which becomes fatigued also becomes paralyzed - it's totally retarded. It also means that ticks have a notable chance of knocking hobbits over. That's retarded as well.

So Strength needs an overhaul. Once that happens, size modifiers for growing and shrinking can begin to make sense.

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082228820[/unixtime]] It also means that ticks have a notable chance of knocking hobbits over. That's retarded as well.


This is more of a consequence of the size system as opposed to the strength system.

Size should be more like a +8 or +10 bonus per catagory, but to make it somewhat competetive when a human gets bullrushed by a big dragon, it's only a minor +4, when in reality we know the human is totally screwed, regardless of how strong he is.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Crissa »

Frank, this isn't GURPS.

Strength as a stat is always relative to your size - so a 0 means you're paralyzed, and a high number means you're strong. Since carrying capacity doubles with size category and type of motion, it shows how the stat already varies relative to the world without varying the actual number.

We do this because doubling is easier than cubing, and this is an imaginary game, not a highly detailed simulation.

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

Strength as a stat is always relative to your size


No it isn't.

It's partially relative to your size, and also an absolute quantity.

Giants don't have the same strength as humans, even though an Ogre can't actually carry any more relative to his size than a human can.

And the degree to which it is relative to your size varies across size categories - which means that size and strength don't scale together at all. That's not good.

So either the degree to which it is relative to your size should be made static (my proposal), or it should be made to go away completely (making strength an absolute amount regardless of size), or it should take over completely (giving giants and humans exactly the same strength score).

I'm OK with any of those three solutions. These would result in (assuming that humans have a strength of 10, and kobolds and Ogres are just as strong as humans for their size):

* Kobolds have a strength of 0, Ogres have a strength of 20, Kobolds get a -4 size penalty in bullrushes, Ogres get a +4 bonus.

* Kobolds have a strength of -5, Ogres have a strength of 25 - size bonuses no longer exist.

* Kobolds have a strength of 10, Ogres have a strength of 10, Kobolds suffer a size penalty of -10 on bullrushes, Ogres get a +10 bonus on buillrushes.

I honestly don't care - but it does have to settle down on one of those. The current system is retardarific.

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

If you're going to say a kobold has 0 strength then it now gets a -5 to attack and damage? So it can't hit anything and now deals 1 damage automatically on all attacks. A big creature would have much larger strength and deal huger amounts of damage.

The problem with retooling strength is that you would have to change around the strength bonus table, which would throw a good portion of the unified ability score table out the window.

Carrying capacity and bullrushing capability really aren't the main concerns in this game. In fact many games go really far without ever having a bullrush or worrying about how muhc equipment weighs. What stat is really important however is bonus to attack and bonus to damage, so strength is geared around that.

While it would make more logical sense to tie it to carrying capacity, in a game, we just don't care that much. Most of the time I could care less how much my character can carry, and when he gets reduced or enlarged, I don't even bother to recalculate encumbrance. At low levels, it isn't much of an issue and at high levels, carrying capacity is assumed by bags of holding.

Also, we want our adventurers to be able to do cool stuff like bull rush storm giants and likewise, even though we know it's not actually realistic. A fighter bullrushing a giant is basically the equivalent of a 4 year old doing the same thing to a human adult. It's futile... but we think it's cool anyway so we allow it.

This also allows a house cat to bullrush a halfling, even though we know there's no chance in hell that could actually happen. It's a tradeoff we accept, much like the way we accept that hit points let you survive immersion in lava without any protection or a 5000' fall.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

The problem with retooling strength is that you would have to change around the strength bonus table, which would throw a good portion of the unified ability score table out the window.


Why? Using 3.5 rules...

An Ogre gets a weapon that does 3.5 extra points of damage and a +4 bonus to trips and carries twice as much.

So for the purposes of damage he has 7 extra strength, for the purposes of damage, 0 extra strength for the purposes of attack rolls, and 8 extra strength for tripping people.

The game would still work, and work fine, if creatures had the same bonus to strength for all of those activities when they went up in size. The unified bonus table doesn't have to make special allowances for anything except carrying capacity - which it already has to make special allowances for.

The problem here is that the game is attempting to apply a double standard on size. One mode of thinking is that small size characters are basically a lot like medium creatures and should be treated similarly. The other mode of thinking is that sizes represent a doubling of dimensions very single time, and thus that small creatures vs. medium creatures should feel just like medium creatures vs. large creatures.

These are completely different ways of looking at size, and their use in different aspects of the rules cause size changes to be completely bizzare and cause the game to grind to a screeching halt (like when the halfling paladin gets grown, and now all his stuff weighs 8 times as much and he gets about double the carrying capacity - and immediately collapses).

You can't have the size encumberance modifier for small size be 3/4 if the size modifier for large size is x2. It means that a small character who is grown in size will always collapse under the load. Always. There can't be a double standard for small characters - they have to get the same treatment as everyone else.

And that probably means that everyone should have a lot more hit points and do more damage base.

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by User3 »

OK, assuming I just want to try to fix Polymorph, and not change the whole size/str/encumbrance systems.

Let's clarify. Changes would be size bonuses, and wouldn't stack w/ other size increases.

So, going to Huge size would give a str bonus of +16 to a medium PC. That's actually quite a bit better than the current +23 you get for changing from a 6 str wizard into a str 29 Frost Giant. I'd cap the spell at Huge size.

I don't see a balance issue with this. It applies an equal increase to everything, instead of arbitrary increases based on how much you sucked before the polymorph.

* * *

Decreasing in size gives a change of -8 to str, +4 to dex, no change to con per size category, and a total of +4 to natural armor. Smallest size is diminuative.

Is this worthwhile?

* * *

Size changes allowed: at 7th level, one category bigger or smaller. At 9th level, 2 categories. At 11th level, 3. At 13th level, 4.

This means small casters can't get large until 11th level. Does this make sense?

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

A +16 bonus and reach is pretty incredible for a 4th level buff spell.

The real question is if it becomes a must take spell. Is the advantage for fighters who have it too much over fighters that don't have it. What about fighter versus monster.

If you run it like a buff spell, you have to treat it like a buff spell, and inevitably ask the question, "Is it ok for a 4th level buff spell to do this?"

IMO +16 to strength alone is probably over the top anyway for a 4th level spell before we even consider the darkvision and other abilities.

I guess the main question we have to ask ourselves is if we really want a great wyrm getting a +16 to strength and some extra abilities.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Lago_AM3P »

IMO +16 to strength alone is probably over the top anyway for a 4th level spell before we even consider the darkvision and other abilities.

I guess the main question we have to ask ourselves is if we really want a great wyrm getting a +16 to strength and some extra abilities.


I don't see a problem with it. That's what we already do, only it's more fair to the opposition and people who already have an investment in their stats.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

I think that if polymorph must be monster based, it would require the whole monster library to be rewritten. To begin with, you would need a viable monster-as-race system, because all polymorph should do is replace your current race with anyother race*. However this ain't going to happen, so I continue to back either Frank's Package system or the option-list system that, IIRC (Too lazy to check) Crissa suggested.

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*(Oh yeah, the whole PC race thing would have to be rewritten too. But that's alright, because I already think that races should only give you things that are hard-coded into your genetics, cultural benefits are handled much better using a system like d20M's Occupation system)
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Crissa »

Frank, stop using real-world numbers in a game.

Size differences give you plus X to bullrushes, and times Y to carrying capacity.

Why do we need to change this? Horses still carry people, Ogres still bullrush people... What needs changing? And why?

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Sma »

Looks, good so far, although I agree with Random that +16 is a bit much. If Polymorph gives such high bonuses now the new one doesn´t have to, as we all agree the old one is broken,

Maybe you could lower the Strength bonuses to +4 or +5. this would be out of line with the size table but you already dropped it for the smaller sizes, so you just might go all the way.

Thios would keep the modifiers more in line with waht we are aiming for, while still avoiding fixed forms :p

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

Size differences give you plus X to bullrushes, and times Y to carrying capacity.

Why do we need to change this? Horses still carry people, Ogres still bullrush people... What needs changing? And why?


Because the The Xs and Ys are insufficient for creatures who grow in size categories to carry things anymore. Furthermore, they are variable across size categories, so a modification that allows a small creature grown to medium to carry himself will not allow a large creeature grown huge to carry himself and often vice versa.

That's what really happens when creatures get grown up - but it's not what happens in fantasy.

Right now, the size chart and the strength gain chart are such that anyone who grows a size category immediately collapses under their own weight. If you make your horse into a giant horse, it can't carry a giant. If you turn a gnome into a human, he can't carry his backpack any more.

Transforming spiders into immense monsters and having them immediately fall apart under the power of gravity is too much realism for a fantasy game.

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

What do you think?

Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched of small, medium, large or huge size
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell changes the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The subject has all the gross physical characteristics (such as skin type and color, hair, eye color/shape/size/number, number and type of limbs, and so on). The subject may also be changed into its own form.

Regardless of the form taken by the subject, you cause the subject to gain a Size Transformation. The Size Transformation need not be the appropriate size category for the assumed form, even if the subject assumes its own form. The caster may, for example, create a Fine Hill Giant, or a Huge Pixie. The caster may cause the subject to become Diminuative, Tiny, Small or Medium; or Large at Caster Level 7; and Fine or Huge at Caster Level 10. The Size Transformations are as follows (applying different modifiers depending on the subject’s original size category):

Fine Size: (small or medium)-10 strength; +6 dexterity; -8 constiuttion; +2 natural armor; (large) –18 strength, +8 dex, -10 con, -2 natural armor; (Huge) -24 str, +10 dex, -12 con, -4 natural armor: and all existing natural attacks are replaced with a 1d1 natural bite attack. The subject may gain wings of any type and flying 60’ (average) and Hover or gain gills, webbed limbs, and swimming (20’) and waterbreathing; poison (DC 14 + con modifier); evasion.

Diminuative Size: (small or medium)-10 strength; +6 dexterity; -8 constiuttion; +2 natural armor; (large) –18 strength, +8 dex, -10 con, -2 natural armor; (Huge) -24 str, +10 dex, -12 con, -4 natural armor: and all existing natural attacks are replaced with a 1d2 natural bite attack. The subject may gain wings of any type and flying 90’ (average) and Hover or gain gills, webbed limbs, and swimming (40’) and waterbreathing; poison (DC 14 + con modifier); evasion.

Tiny Size: (small or medium)-6 strength; +4 dexterity; -6 constiuttion; +2 natural armor; (large) –12 strength, +6 dex, -8 con, -2 natural armor; (Huge) -18 str, +8 dex, -10 con, -4 natural armor: and all existing natural attacks are replaced with a 1d4 natural bite attack. The subject may gain wings of any type and flying 90’ (average) and Hover or gain gills, webbed limbs, and swimming (40’) and waterbreathing; poison (DC 14 + con modifier).

Small or Medium Size: (small or medium)+4 strength, +2 dexterity, +2 con, +2 natural armor; (large) -6 strength; +4 dexterity; -4 constiuttion; (huge) –12 strength, +6 dex, -8 con, -2 natural armor; and all existing natural attacks are replaced with a natural attack routine of claw 1d4/claw 1d4/bite 1d6. The subject may gain wings of any type and flying (60’ average) and hover; or gain gills, webbed limbs, and swimming (40’) and waterbreathing; or gain Burrow (10’) and Tremorsense (30’), only active while burrowing; or gain Move speed (40’). The subject may gain a Poison bite attack (DC 14+con modifier); Scent; or an additional +2 natural armor. The subject may gain Improved Grab, Improved Trip, or Multiattack.

Large Size: (small or medium)+6 strength, -2 dex, +6 con, +4 natural armor; (large) +4 strength, +2 dexterity, +2 con; (Huge) -6 strength; +4 dexterity; -4 constitution. and all existing natural attacks are replaced with a natural attack routine of claw 1d6/claw 1d6/bite 1d8. The subject may gain wings of any type and flying (60’ average) and hover; or gain gills, webbed limbs, and swimming (40’) and waterbreathing; or gain Burrow (10’) and Tremorsense (30’), only active while burrowing; or gain Move speed (60’). The subject may gain a Poison bite attack (DC 14+con modifier); Scent; or an additional +2 natural armor. The subject may gain Improved Grab and Constrict (2d12), Improved Trip, Multiattack; Spikes (1d6/40’ ranged piercing attack); or Powerful Charge (2d8 damage on charges).

Huge Size: (small or medium)+14 strength, -4 dex, +10 con, +8 natural armor; (large) +6 strength, -2 dexterity, +6 con, +2 natural armor; (Huge) +4 str, +2 dex, +2 con. and all existing natural attacks are replaced with a natural attack routine of claw 1d8/claw 1d8/bite 2d6. The subject may gain wings of any type and flying (60’ poor) and Hover; or gain gills, webbed limbs, and swimming (40’) and waterbreathing; or gain Burrow (20’) and Tremorsense (40’), only active while burrowing; or gain Move speed (60’). The subject may gain a Poison bite attack (DC 14+con modifier); Scent; or an additional +2 natural armor. The subject may gain Improved Grab and Constrict (2d12), Improved Trip, Multiattack; Spikes (1d8/40’ ranged piercing attack); or Powerful Charge (4d6 damage on charges).

Additionally, at Caster Level 12 the subject may gain a Breath Weapon attack. The caster chooses an energy type, which does 6d8 in a 40’cone.

The subject retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Hit points never change from the application of a Size Transformation bonus, except for the healing described below.

The subject does not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form except as given above. Creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of the new form. The subject cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

The caster can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If the spell is used to create a disguise, the subject gets a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, any equipmenteither remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the subject reverts to true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on the body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new worn in the assumed form and not wearable in the normal form fall off and land at the subject’s feet; any that the subject could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form, except that poison continues to poison any victims.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

Ok first, you should probably specify a bonus type, size bonus is probably the one you want because that's what enlarge uses. This prevents it from stacking with righteous might and other growth spells.

Second, I'm not sure I understand exactly how your bonus abilities like flight work... do you get them regardless of your original size catagory or are they also linked to size?

Also the old con bonus but no hit point change is a bad idea. Make it a bonus to fortitude saves if you want, but if you're going to change the con, you should change the hit points just for consistency.

Then, there's this...

The_Hanged_Man at [unixtime wrote:1082595431[/unixtime]]
Huge Size: (small or medium)+14 strength, -4 dex, +10 con, +8 natural armor;


For a 4th level spell that lasts 1 min/level, this is insanely powerful. It makes righteous might look like crap and RM is a 5th level personal range spell with less duration.

A 4th level buff should not be this good. This spell becomes an absolute must take as a fighter buff. If I use improved expertise for 7 every time, I'm getting a total +13 to AC, and a +7 to damage (possibly 1.5x that). That's too much of an advantage over a guy who doesn't have this spell.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Yeah, good point about the bonus type. Meant to call it a size bonus.

I disagree about the con bonuses. It affects a lot of things - saves, the poison DC, a lot of conditions. I don't want it to affect HP - and only HP.

What if the str bonuses scale more? Huge has to give you something. I was trying to lower the complexity a tad, but I could scale them.

But I'm not sure it's overpowered re RM. RM only makes a medium creature large. Huge has a lot of disadvantages. RM increases weapon size. This doesn't. RM also stacks w/ Polymorph (in 3.5). If these are size bonuses, it doesn't stack anymore - which diminishes both spells. Course, this spell has lots of little add-ons.

The real question is, how do you make a medium shape change meaningful, and not have large and huge do something like this?
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

Having Con Bonuses not affect hit points is retarded.

It also brings up a fundamental probelm with the way bonuses are handled in D&D. In D&D you have a Constitution bonus to each of your hit dice which is immediately modified to the new bonus as soon as your Con changes for any reason.

So with the spell you described, a character could take his Periapt of Health off, and then put it back on, and gain whatever hit points you are trying to deny him anyways.

Example: Let's say you have a Wizard with a Constitution of 14, and a Periapt of Health +2. His Constitution bonus is +3, so he gains 3 extra hit points per die. If he takes his Periapt off, his Constitution modiifer falls to +2, so he loses 1 hit point per die. He doesn't just "lose one hit point per die" - he replaces his +3 bonus with a +2 bonus, which happens to be 1 point smaller.

But now he grows to huge size. His Con is 26, so we look at the table and find that the modifier is now +8, however he doesn't change his hit points - so his hit points is still calculated at the last value of +3 per die. Now he takes his Periapt off - which causes his Constitution to fall to 24, which means we now apply the new modifier from the table to his hit points - which is +7 and therefore 4 points higher than the last time we calculated hit points so his hit points rise. Then he puts his Periapt back on, again recalculating his Con modifier according to the table entry for his new Constitution of 26, and putting his hit point bonus all the way to +8.

Really. That's how it works. Go ahead and read page 8 of the player's handbook. There is no such thing as a delta conmodifier, and what you are really adding here are whole bonuses, not changes in bonuses.

This is the reason why in 3.5, they dropped the concept of Con changes without Hit Point changes. The attribute bonus rules do not support such a thing and they had to be scrapped.

Do not, under any circumstances, attempt to institute a change in Constitution without a corresponding change in hit points in D&D. The fundamentals of how bonuses are calculated and applied cannot account for that under any circumstance.

The whole idea of "gain +2 to the stat, modify all relvent values up by 1" is a shortcut to the actual rule. And it's a shortcut which is always going to be the same as the actual rules unless you pull crap like having changes that instantaneously don't apply the new modifier to a pertinent variable. As soon as you pull something ass stupid like that, then that's no longer equivalent to the rules - the rules are that every time your value changes, you apply the entire modifier located on the table in whole replacement of the last modifier that you got from the table with your previous value.

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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by RandomCasualty »

The_Hanged_Man at [unixtime wrote:1082599406[/unixtime]]
I disagree about the con bonuses. It affects a lot of things - saves, the poison DC, a lot of conditions. I don't want it to affect HP - and only HP.

Just manually increase the poison DC, you set it at a flat 14+con anyway. So make it 18+con if that's your intention and grant a size bonus to fortitude saves.


But I'm not sure it's overpowered re RM. RM only makes a medium creature large. Huge has a lot of disadvantages. RM increases weapon size. This doesn't. RM also stacks w/ Polymorph (in 3.5). If these are size bonuses, it doesn't stack anymore - which diminishes both spells. Course, this spell has lots of little add-ons.

The way you wrote it, it sounds like items and equipment resize automatically, if that isn't the case it'd be a good idea to specifically state it somewhere, because I interpreted the line "any equipmenteither remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item)" to mean that items resized to fit the new form. It doesn't specifically state it, but it definitely implies it.


The real question is, how do you make a medium shape change meaningful, and not have large and huge do something like this?


You can grant strength bonuses to a medium shape, there's nothing really wrong with that. Unless you're particularly concerned with preserving precise encumbrance and carrying ratios like Frank seems to support, there's no reason large and huge have to grant that much more strength than medium does.

When you're large and huge, your trading off bonuses to hit and AC for reach, and you could just leave it at that. The bonus to strength for medium+ could be static if you wanted it to be. It is after all a buff spell, and besides the logical belief that bigger forms should be stronger, there's no balance reason why this has to be so. Being big carries natural disadvatnages and advantages anyway, and strength doesn't have to be part of that.
The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082602036[/unixtime]]Having Con Bonuses not affect hit points is retarded.

It also brings up a fundamental probelm with the way bonuses are handled in D&D. In D&D you have a Constitution bonus to each of your hit dice which is immediately modified to the new bonus as soon as your Con changes for any reason.

So with the spell you described, a character could take his Periapt of Health off, and then put it back on, and gain whatever hit points you are trying to deny him anyways.

Example: Let's say you have a Wizard with a Constitution of 14, and a Periapt of Health +2. His Constitution bonus is +3, so he gains 3 extra hit points per die. If he takes his Periapt off, his Constitution modiifer falls to +2, so he loses 1 hit point per die. He doesn't just "lose one hit point per die" - he replaces his +3 bonus with a +2 bonus, which happens to be 1 point smaller.

But now he grows to huge size. His Con is 26, so we look at the table and find that the modifier is now +8, however he doesn't change his hit points - so his hit points is still calculated at the last value of +3 per die. Now he takes his Periapt off - which causes his Constitution to fall to 24, which means we now apply the new modifier from the table to his hit points - which is +7 and therefore 4 points higher than the last time we calculated hit points so his hit points rise. Then he puts his Periapt back on, again recalculating his Con modifier according to the table entry for his new Constitution of 26, and putting his hit point bonus all the way to +8.

Really. That's how it works. Go ahead and read page 8 of the player's handbook. There is no such thing as a delta conmodifier, and what you are really adding here are whole bonuses, not changes in bonuses.

This is the reason why in 3.5, they dropped the concept of Con changes without Hit Point changes. The attribute bonus rules do not support such a thing and they had to be scrapped.

Do not, under any circumstances, attempt to institute a change in Constitution without a corresponding change in hit points in D&D. The fundamentals of how bonuses are calculated and applied cannot account for that under any circumstance.

The whole idea of "gain +2 to the stat, modify all relvent values up by 1" is a shortcut to the actual rule. And it's a shortcut which is always going to be the same as the actual rules unless you pull crap like having changes that instantaneously don't apply the new modifier to a pertinent variable. As soon as you pull something ass stupid like that, then that's no longer equivalent to the rules - the rules are that every time your value changes, you apply the entire modifier located on the table in whole replacement of the last modifier that you got from the table with your previous value.

-Username17


Hit points never change from the application of a Size Transformation bonus . . .


Overrules the PHB crap you're talking about, doesn't it?
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

Overrules the PHB crap you're talking about, doesn't it?


Nope.

Once you add a modifier to your Constitution, you don't have a Constitution score that doesn't include that modifier.

So when you change you con modifier and don't change your hit points - the very next time your Con Modifier changes (up or down), it's going to readjust your hit points to the new total modifier, which of course is going to include the change in modifier that didn't change your hit points.

You could get what you wanted by having it grant a +10 Con Bonus and a -5 penalty to hit points per level - but while that is the only method of doing this that the rules actually support, it's still a tremendous pain in the ass which is horrendously complicated to explain.

You still haven't actually said why it's so very important to you that the rules be broken in this particular way, however.

-Username17
The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Several reasons.

One, I don't want wizards changed to fine creatures that have 1 hit point. That sucks.

Two, I don't want to have to two tracks for HP.

Three, I want this to be different from raging.

Four, if the effect adds hit points, it's quite a bit more powerful than if it doesn't. RM adds to your hit points; this doesn't. It's a balance issue.

The main reason I want con changes in is to up/lower fort saves. I could just give bonuses and negatives to that, I guess, but then it's divorced from the traditional polymorph effect.
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Username17 »

One: no argument there. Although I don't think that fine creatures should have lower Constitution values, just as I don't think that large creatures should have larger Con values.

Two: People are going to have multiple hit point values anyway unless you are also removing Endurance, which it doesn't sound like you are.

Three: Tough titty, it's not, and never has been.

Four: Balancing things against Righteous Might is a waste of your time.

Finally: traditional Polymorph doesn't exist - it's been radically different so many times that most people have lost count. Seriously, Polymorph Rules have changed more than once per edition, making them the single most disputed and frequently modified rule in Dungeons and Dragons. Within the last four years there have been seven distinctly different "official" Polymorph rules - and the current ones are so incomprehensible that they are probably going to get a major overhaul in the upcoming FAQ, the Complete Stupid Name, or both. In fact, since Wildshape is stapled to Polymorph again, it wouldn't surprise me to see a major overhaul in the FAQ, the Complete Divine and the Complete Hating Sorcerers.

Even pretending that there is a Polymorph tradition to break from is laughable. The game has been going in various incarnations for nearly forty years now, and the most current version of shapechanging hasn't ever been in place for more than 8 months - and that includes the period before the internet when new rules were disseminated on grainy photo copies by fans.

-Username17
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Re: Fixed-Form Polymorph

Post by Falgund »

Concerning "Two" :
Modifying your Con by Endurance (or Rage) only changes your maximum and current HP. So if you do not track your current HP, but only your current damage, you only need to track one thing (and compare it to your "current" maximum HP).
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