The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

What is a CDG?

A fighting guy of 20th level is going to need more than a weapon, a shield, and armor. Some kind of anti-magic is needed, like a Ring of Spell Turning(100,000 K) or a Rod of Absorbtion(50K) or the like, or else the first mage with that no-save dancing spell is going to make an ass out of him. On top of that, he’s going to need a range of magical effects available to him. Most don’t even need to be large effects(Enlarge and True Strike are level 1, and quickened at level 5). Rings of Spell Storing were not created for spellcasters or rogues or rangers or paladins. They were created for our friend the fighter.

Plus, a fighter must fly. Either he can do it naturally, or he has a winged horse or a roc or something, but there is no way he can function in CR 20 encounters and not have some mobility(ever seen Dragonball Z?).

A good method of teleportation is probably also a good idea, since a melee guy needs to close distances quickly without help from the party.

With three quarters of a million GP as a standard for equipment, and the fact that a single Ring of Wishes(100 K-ish) can net you items of well nigh godlike power(or Epic) if you are willing to burn the XP, the fighter can do these things.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by RandomCasualty »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082652110[/unixtime]]What is a CDG?

Coup de Grace.


With three quarters of a million GP as a standard for equipment, and the fact that a single Ring of Wishes(100 K-ish) can net you items of well nigh godlike power(or Epic) if you are willing to burn the XP, the fighter can do these things.


Not sure what point you're making here. In an AMF that equipment is meaningless.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Right, but the fighter can stay out of the AMF with Reach.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Sma »

CDG = Coup de Grace, sorry

I was trying to simplify here, going on the assumption that Item Costs were basically balanced. So the Fighter and the Cleric would be gaining the same bang for the buck, so to speak.
And once the cleric closes in all the magic in the world will be worth absolutely squat to the fighter, as he is inside the Anti Magic Field. How is a Rod of Absorption or a Ring of spell turning going to change any of this ?

At some point in time the fighter has to sqare off against the cleric. As I don´t think you propose a casting match, he´ll be either using ranged weapons or melee weapons, ranged ones are countered by Protection from Arrows, Wind Wall or Entropic Shield, to name a few.

So he´ll have to get close and personal, where tha Cleric has access to magic, and the Fighter does not, do the math.

But anyway, maybe giving the cleric an additional way to break the game doesn´t break him any more than he already is.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

AMFs have a range of 10. With a reach weapons, you totally stay our of it, meaning that your equipement works, and their's doesn't. the whole "attack when they try an cast spells" is a pretty good defense for the fighter.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Essence »

Assume that the Cleric is smart enough to Widen his AMFs, so they're 20 feet wide, rather than 10. BAM! Your entire argument vanishes with a single metamagic feat and a "kick it up a notch!".

Oh, wait, the fighter could be using ranged weapons. Great, what's the best a Fighter can do at range vs. an Archer Cleric? Both are set up for massive success at ranged combat. Both have a full BAB. The Cleric doesn't really have any buffs for Dexterity, but then, neither does the fighter. Both have enough money to have Mighty Composite bows that compliment their uber Strength, and all of the other equipment that a 20th level character has by necessity, so basically it comes down to:

The Fighter has about 11 more feats than the Cleric to invest into Ranged Combat, and

The Cleric has a 20% miss chance vs. ranged weapons that the fighter can't get, +4 enlargement bonus to Str that the Fighter can't get, a +6 luck bonus to attacks and damage that the Fighter can't get, a +5 to AC that the fighter can't get...oh, and can cast a quickened spell every round, which the Fighter can't. (And that's just from the PHB!)

Those 11 feats may make quite a difference...but is it enough to overcome a 20% decrease in the Fighter's total damage throughput and a +5 to AC, +6 to attacks, and +6 to damage relative to the fighter (assuming the +2 damage from Righteous Might is made up for by the fighter's Weapon Spec)?


Sorry, K, but you're tilting at windmills here, and Dulcinea is long dead.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Essence »

Quick sub-note: The Cleric doesn't even have to have the Widen Spell feat to pull this off, because whenever he needs to cast AMF, he's definitionally not IN one, which means he can use the Widen Rod to full effect here, and save himself a feat to put into archery practice.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »


Assuming that was the case, why can’t a fighter have an Enlargement bonus? With a Ring of Spell Storing, a quickened Enlarge is only half the capacity. Add the 10 ft reach from the Enlarge to a 10 ft reach weapon, and he has 20 ft(Who cares about your Widen now?). I can’t think of a single reason why any adventuring fighter wouldn’t want one of these as standard equipment.

I’m not even going to mention a Polymorph spell.

And why wouldn’t a fighter up his Dex? For a mere 36,000, he can have a +6, and another +4 for 110,000 if he went the book route, although the Wishes from Gated monsters is a cheaper method, and if you don’t like that method the purchase of a Ring of Wishes can get him a book for 4,000 XP per wish per book.

The fighter also has Fortification armor, reducing the chance of crits dramatically, pulling his overall damage up.
His animated shield of Arrow Deflection also is canceling one ranged attack automatically.

A peon gained with a quickened summon spell or the Leadership feat can also hide behind a tower shield of Arrow Catching(getting full cover), redirecting all the enemy arrow attacks. Sure the peon might get killed by spell by the cleric, but who cares? A wasted spell action is one less spell for the fighter to worry about.

I surprised that no one can see any of these options. Do you even play high level fighters? A cleric Archer with no equipment, in an AMF that gives a 50% spell failure chance is so overspecialized that he’s going to get juiced if he tries play in an adventure.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082660417[/unixtime]]A peon gained with a quickened summon spell or the Leadership feat can also hide behind a tower shield of Arrow Catching(getting full cover), redirecting all the enemy arrow attacks. Sure the peon might get killed by spell by the cleric, but who cares? A wasted spell action is one less spell for the fighter to worry about.


You can't quicken a summon monster spell.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Keith, yes, you are right. You have successuly proven that a fighter that tried to enlarge w/ a reach weapon could, conceivable, keep up w/ a Mystra cleric that was stupid enough to get into melee combat with it.

Note, however, that all other fighters are absolutely and completely screwed.

Note, moreover, that the cleric just has to drop the AMF, teleport away, heal if necessary, get all its magical crap back, grab its bow and arrows, GMW, cast RM again and rain unholy death on that fighter, that is not optimized for missile combat.

You're trotting out several different specialized fighter builds, maxed for one type of combat, none of which can compete w/ the same Mystra cleric. The Mystra feat lets the cleric have a huge can of whup-ass. 99% of the time, that's game over.

In the rare event that can of whupass doesn't work, the cleric just uses it's normal whupass schtick, which is still OK.

Put more property, the Feat isn't balanced b/c 1/1000 times the schtick doesn't work. That still leaves 999/1000 it's instant death.

It's like your saying Planeshift/Gate isn't broken b/c the victim might be a cleric immune to all energy damage and negative and positive energy damage. Not so.

We all know that Gate isn't broken b/c it has a small xp cost. Right? ;)
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

The Persistant feat/Divine Power is what lets a cleric do all its tricks. Remove that feat and that spell, and balance returns to the game.

And I haven't proposed multiple fighter builds. I've proposed one build. A fighter is the only class who has enough feats to be a reach fighter, two weapon fighter, and an archer.

If I do the numbers on the equipment, you'll see that it all can fit into the 750Kish amount set aside for a 20th level character.

PS.
They should make Persistance core, and limit it to spells that have durations based on Concentration.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Sma »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082677657[/unixtime]]The Persistant feat/Divine Power is what lets a cleric do all its tricks. Remove that feat and that spell, and balance returns to the game.


It´s not going to go away real soon, and adding the Initiate of Mystra on top, is just adding insult to injury.

The point is, if it dawns on the Cleric that he´ll lose against Fighter due to of the superior equipment Fighter has, he can still choose to close up, making all that equipment useless.
I simply don´t feel that the fighter will be buffed to a sufficient degree, above the mystra cleric which due to the wonders of the magic domain has been using the best of both arcane and clerical buffing from day one, and I simply don´t feel that a spellstoring ring can keep up with this, and any Item based casting the cleric can get cheaper or get something else instead(btw. thanks for not mentioning polymorph, which would just make this even more fun for the cleric than it already is.
But I´ll concede the point again that there are probably a few optimized fighter builds out there that could endanger the cleric, as well as several prepared monsters.

As for the whole picture, Hanged Man summed it up quite nicely.

I´ll abandon the K bashing for now, lest you feel offended by the me too´s :)

Have Fun,
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Essence »

K wrote:With a Ring of Spell Storing, a quickened Enlarge is only half the capacity. Add the 10 ft reach from the Enlarge to a 10 ft reach weapon, and he has 20 ft(Who cares about your Widen now?). I can’t think of a single reason why any adventuring fighter wouldn’t want one of these as standard equipment.


Then, the cleric casts Greater Dispelling, and the fighter's reach goes away, and we're back down to comparing a Fighter (who has now wasted half of the spell levels in his precious Ring of Spell Storing) built for archery and melee vs. a Cleric built for just archery -- and the Cleric still wins.


K wrote:I’m not even going to mention a Polymorph spell.


Good, because the instant you do, I'm going to mention Shapechange...which easily allows the Cleric to outfight the Fighter no matter what the Fighter is set up to do, because the Cleric has infinite flexibility available at infinite speed -- and is still immune to magic that is not his own.


K wrote:And why wouldn’t a fighter up his Dex?


I never said he wouldn't. I said he wouldn't have any buffs for his Dexterity. Equipment != buffs. To be fair, your point is correct: a Fighter outside of an AMF should have a Dex about 6 points higher than a Cleric inside one.


K wrote:The fighter also has Fortification armor, reducing the chance of crits dramatically, pulling his overall damage up.
His animated shield of Arrow Deflection also is canceling one ranged attack automatically.


And in response to this, the Cleric has Heal, which means the Cleric straight doesn't give a rat's ass about those few arrows which do hit him.


K wrote:A peon gained with a quickened summon spell or the Leadership feat can also hide behind a tower shield of Arrow Catching(getting full cover), redirecting all the enemy arrow attacks. Sure the peon might get killed by spell by the cleric, but who cares? A wasted spell action is one less spell for the fighter to worry about.


Congrats, you've made the Cleric waste a free action (Quickened Flame Strike, as the classic example) and thrown away an incredibly useful magical item (quite a chunk of the money you keep raving about the Fighter getting to spend), and now the Cleric still gets his full attack off against you. Way to go.


Realistically, the only thing that the Cleric needs to make this battle totally one-sided is a simple 3rd/5th spell combo: Stone Shape+Wall of Stone. If he succeeds in trapping the fighter under the wall with him, the fight's over, as the Fighter cannot get out of the widened AMF. If the fighter escapes, and if the Clerc is left alone inside, a single Stone Shape spell to create arrow slits leaves the Cleric with 9/10ths cover and the ability to cast and/or shoot out at the fighter, who is screwed if he tries to get close enough to hack apart the wall, as he re-enters the AMF, and screwed if he tries to compete against an Archer Cleric with a 40% miss chance from cover, a 20% miss chance from Entropic Shield (total effective damage througput of the fighter drops by *48%* just from those), and all of the AC, damage, hit, and Strength bonuses that just the PHB buffs provide the Cleric.

Fighter feats may indeed be as powerful as the straight numerical superiority of Cleric buffs -- but they will NEVER be as useful as the entire list of Cleric spells. The Hanged Man has already pointed out that the Initiate Cleric Archer requires a very specific and peculiar build to even start to deal with it in the first place -- and now I'm pointing out that, in those hypothetical situations in which such a build actually exists, the Initiate Cleric Archer can, with just a slight change in his prepared spell list, deal with even that build.


The sickest part is that nothing forces the Initiate Cleric to fight in an AMF. An Initiate Cleric can just as easily drop the AMF, and fight exactly like any other Cleric Archer (minus a feat, oh no!). If this mythic fighter wants to close, the Initiate Cleric Archer casts AMF and roxxorz the Fighter's soxxorz because his spells continue working while the Fighter's equipment doesn't. If this mythic fighter backs off to get out of the AMF, the AMF goes away, and the Initiate Cleric roxxorz the Fighter's soxxorz because his spells AND his equipment combine to overpower just the Fighter's equipment.

Nobody is saying Fighters aren't powerful, K. We're saying that Initiate Clerics are broken. That's all. The feat is the problem, not the Fighter.


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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

Nobody is saying Fighters aren't powerful, K.


I actually am. Feats are nice and all - but so are buff spells. In fact, a buff spell is generally worth as much or more than a feat. By design, even. Layer on top of that the fact that a Wizard gets 2+ spells per level and the Fighter gains 1 feat every two levels - we see an enormous power disparity.

You can hand wave about "just sundering" or whatever, but that's an incredibly non-trivial task. And we still haven't gotten into "what if we just layer a Force Cage on a Cloud Kill?" or anything crazy like that.

Fighters are out of their league at high levels. I honestly doubled the ability accumulation rate of Fighters and threw them a number of powerful schticks and bones at high level and they were still out of their league at high level. Or don't you remember? General Zelkor was better than the book Fighters could be and he was memorable - but he wasn't all that effective at anything except surviving horrendous attacks. A useful skill, but I would definately say that the Nixie ended up killing more enemies and allies.

Even after we give Fighters large numbers of power ups, they still aren't powerful relative to what the primary casters can do. So no, Fighters out of the box are not powerful.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by MrWaeseL »

General Zelkor?
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Ok, just a few last coments before we consider this thread dead.

1. Many of the responses talk about the huge power of the cleric's spells in his AMF. Are we all forgetting that the cleric has a 50% spell failure chance? The cleric is going to waste quite a few spells, and in that time the cleric gets juiced.

2. The fighter is going to need some kind of Antimagic. A simple quickened AMF in a Ring of Spell Storing negates all the cleric's power, but a Ring of Spell Turning or a Rod of Absorbtion also works for a while.

3. The Forcecage has a Reflex save, and the cleric has lower DC's due to his lack of equipement and the lower duration of buff spells. It can also be avoided if the fighter has an ability like D-door.

4. The Stone Shape/Wall of Stone combo is pretty lame. Improved precise shot ignores AC bonuses to cover

5. Frank, General Zelkor was up against 8 enemies of Epic to near epic power, and you let us use Polymorph Any Object to create Lava huggy bears and liquid nitrogen and liquid metal, a rules interpretaion that really was overpowered. Not a good example.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

OK, who the heck is General Zelkor?
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

Are we all forgetting that the cleric has a 50% spell failure chance?


Are we forgetting that the Cleric can, and presumably will, utilize such items as Rings of Spell String or Purple Ioun Stones to lower his caster level on his AMF, and then use class features, feats, and domain abilities to raise his caster level afterwards? And as such, his spell failure chance is actually zero by 20th level? (Caster level 11 on the AMF, Caster Level 21+ on all the rest of the Cleric's spells)

2. The fighter is going to need some kind of Antimagic. A simple quickened AMF in a Ring of Spell Storing negates all the cleric's power, but a Ring of Spell Turning or a Rod of Absorbtion also works for a while.


What? This doesn't even work. If another fool tries to generate an AMF while the Cleric is already in one it has no effect at all on the Cleric's spells. Specifically. Only the first one counts, so the Cleric's spell failure chance is still zero and all his spells work.

You can't get around this. Nothing the Fighter can do means crap - it's just you in a box with 11 bonus feats and masterwork equipment against a Cleric with +5 gear, enhancement bonuses to all his stats, your own BAB, more hit points, +6 Luck Bonuses to attack and damage, Flaming Frosting Lightning Acid Sonic Burst on his weapons, morale and competence bonuses to attack and damage, Dr of 15/ Nothing you can have in an AMF can penetrate it, and a head full of quickened attack spells.

The Cleric Teleports next to you and rips your heart out. There is absolutely, positively, nothing you can do. No combination of feats or equipment can prepare you for this, because none of your equipment even works. You lose, end of frickin discussion.

Forcecage
...
Saving throw: None


You were saying?

and you let us use Polymorph Any Object to create Lava huggy bears and liquid nitrogen and liquid metal, a rules interpretaion that really was overpowered. Not a good example.


I let PAO stand in for Summon Monster VIII or Cone of Cold. But I didn't allow people to replace their Intelligence scores with that of Paragon Leshay. How is that overpowered? I heavily, heavily nerfed that spell in that game and the spellcaster were still dominating things left and right.

If you want an overpowered interpretation, just use it as a buff spell as written.

Face it Keith, you've got nothing. Quit while you are ahead. Actually, you aren't ahead, but you should quit anyway because there is no way in hell you can argue this position without looking like a jackass.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

1. The Mystra feat says that you can cast spells while in an AMF, and have them work normally. It has no rules for your effects being immune to new AMFs.

2. If you cast your AMF out of a Ring of Spell Storing, you can't use your Rod of Persistance(as the rods only affect spellcasting, not spells cast out of items like scrolls and spell storing items). You can't get Persistance on an AMF in any other pre-Epic way(unless this cleric has some power which lets him add metamagic of which I am unaware).

Also, there are no other rules that let you cast a spell will a lower caster level, unless you create an item that does that.

That's 50% spell failure unless you want to burn a scroll or use a Spell Storing item for a limited duration AMF.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

There's a lot of conjectural bandying-about between both sides of this debate.

Why don't you run a Player-vs.-Player arena-type duel between a high level Fighter (played by Keith) and a high level Cleric Archer (played by Frank) with a 3rd party as judge?

I'm sure we'd all love to see it take place here at the Gaming Den. But it sounds like you both game together in real life anyway. So even a final result and duel synopsis might be fun and informative for us avid readers (of this thread).
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

The Mystra feat says that you can cast spells while in an AMF, and have them work normally. It has no rules for your effects being immune to new AMFs.


But Antimagic Field does. A second AMF has no effect on any other AMFs. So once you bypass one AMF, you automatically bypass all others as well, because the later AMFs have no additional effect. Really, stop arguing this.

If you cast your AMF out of a Ring of Spell Storing, you can't use your Rod of Persistance(as the rods only affect spellcasting, not spells cast out of items like scrolls and spell storing items). You can't get Persistance on an AMF in any other pre-Epic way(unless this cleric has some power which lets him add metamagic of which I am unaware).


This is:

1: Irrelevent.

and

2: Not true. You actually can slap a rod on a spell you cast out of a ring of spell storing. While it negates Arcane Spell Failure, and a bunch of other stuff - including the fact that spells cast with a Ring of Spell Storing never cost XP - they are still cast by you - so a Metamagic rod still works if that's what you really want to do.

It's meaningless, because AMF lasts a long time compared to the time it takes to effect a Teleport Ambush - but you can actually totally do that if it is important to you.

Also, there are no other rules that let you cast a spell will a lower caster level, unless you create an item that does that.


There are, but there don't need to be - any spell cast out of an item can have its caster level reduced to the minimum needed to cast the spell at all - and that's plenty for this discussion.

If there exists a single way to do it - and there is - then it's done. There is no spell failure cance, and this discussion is over.

Guest wrote:
Why don't you run a Player-vs.-Player arena-type duel between a high level Fighter (played by Keith) and a high level Cleric Archer (played by Frank) with a 3rd party as judge?


I'm down.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I'd judge. Shouldn't take long.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »


Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. wrote:


So how does this mean that the ability to ignore one AMF lets you ignore all others? Since the first AMF doesn't effect the second(mine), and thus doesn't block line of effect, then how are you immune to it? The feat doesn't say or have mechanics for your spells being unaffected by new AMFs.

----------

I doubt Frank will do a cage match. He'd have to make his Cleric Archer 3.5 compliant, and he doesn't play 3.5.

He also wouldn't ley his Cleric archer enter the battlefield w/o 10 rounds of spellcasting to buff himself with low duration spells.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by fbmf »

You guys are welcome to have your steel cage death match In The Trenches, of course. Should be interesting.

Game On,
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Keith wrote:He also wouldn't let his Cleric archer enter the battlefield w/o 10 rounds of spellcasting to buff himself with low duration spells.


Well, there are specific set rules for PvP duels. And the way they are set up should allow at least 1 or 2 rounds of pre-battle buffing.

I know the Character Optimization Board used to have the "Core Arena" PVP battles on the WotC Boards - but now they moved to their own dedicated board.

Anybody know the rules for PvP Duels? Or something quick and dirty to accomodate this specific duel with a little prep buffing time prior to clashing swords?

J.
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