The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

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User3
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

The infamous cleric archer build, as given, is not compliant with 3.5 rules. Extension can only be applied to a spell once, so his spell list has to be reworked.

Second, none of his equipment is going to work in the AMF, which will radically alter his stats. This will affect his spells as well, as he can't use his Extension Rod. A persistant AMF(I assume you'd go Persistant) will have to be put up before he can cast the other spells that will work in the AMF(the feat does not say that your spells get a check vs. your spells entering an AMF, it only lets you be in an AMF and cast them and have them work).

If you seriously want me to show you the error of your ways, remove all that BS, and recalculate his stats, if you please. I don't have all of the cleric Splatbooks on hand, so I can't do it for you.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Wrenfield »

Frank wrote:If you are willing to be evil, you can be a cleric archer without ever being a "Cleric" at all. A Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ MyTh 10/ Hospitaler 1/ Contemplative 1/ Master of Shrouds 1, for example, has a Wizard caster level of 16, and an Ur-Priest caster level of 22. In addition, she has no less than 5 domains (of which 3, are, unfortunately, Death, Evil, and Protection), and a Prestige Domain. She has proficiency in every martial weapon, so the War Domain is not strictly speaking a necessity.


Frank wrote:Actually, you can do it that way, it just requires you to cast cleric spells for level trade-in. But you have those Cleric spells, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.


Wiz5 / Mindbender1 ... you need the Leadership which you can only get at 6th level or higher. Last I recall, pg. 58 in the PHB has a Level Advancement sequence of events that places feat acquisition *after* choosing a class or a PrC. Since I am without books, if anyone can correct me, please feel free. Anyway -- Wiz6 would be the earliest you can enter Mindbender.

To get into UP at its earliest, you could go Wiz5 / Palemaster1.

Also, your build progression is off. To get into MyTh, you need 2nd level divine spells - and per your listing, you enter it after 1 level of Ur-Priest. You can't even reslot Hospitaler to attach to UP (and hence, gain legal access into MyTh) because you don't meet the pre-req.'s for Hospitaler. Nor can you do the same with MoS, because you need to be able to channell negative energy (which you don't get until level 2 of UP). Pretty much no way around it - you have to take 2 levels of UP to get into MyTh. Which ain't a bad thing. An optimized UP/MyTh build grants you both 9th level divine and arcane spells.

Such as:

Wiz5 / Palemaster 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / MoS 1 / MyTh7 / True Necromancer 1 / XXX 3

Where XXX 3 is a progression of your Wizard levels. The True Necromancer level lets your Death Domain and Necromancy spells go sky-high in caster levels.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

Wiz5 / Mindbender1 ... you need the Leadership which you can only get at 6th level or higher. Last I recall, pg. 58 in the PHB has a Level Advancement sequence of events that places feat acquisition *after* choosing a class or a PrC. Since I am without books, if anyone can correct me, please feel free. Anyway -- Wiz6 would be the earliest you can enter Mindbender.


What's your point?

You can take 6 levels of Wizard, take a level of Mindbender, then lose a level (which is automatically lost off of Wizard), and then regain it (perhaps with the aid of a Restoration), and then take that newly gained level as any other PrC you qualify for.

Also, your build progression is off.


It's not a build progression, it's a collection of levels.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Wrenfield »

Interesting ... you advocate characters go looking to lose a level? Why would a character wish to do this in-game and how would he role-play this?

I understand where you are coming from mechanically regarding the RAW --- it's just that your quote "...then lose a level (which is automatically lost off of Wizard), and then regain it (perhaps with the aid of a Restoration)..." doesn't mesh with normal player-character and team play objectives.

Yeah, I know ... defining "normal" is impossible. :roundnround:
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by MrWaeseL »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082503022[/unixtime]]The infamous cleric archer build, as given, is not compliant with 3.5 rules. Extension can only be applied to a spell once, so his spell list has to be reworked.

Second, none of his equipment is going to work in the AMF, which will radically alter his stats. This will affect his spells as well, as he can't use his Extension Rod. A persistant AMF(I assume you'd go Persistant) will have to be put up before he can cast the other spells that will work in the AMF(the feat does not say that your spells get a check vs. your spells entering an AMF, it only lets you be in an AMF and cast them and have them work).


So what? He'll still win every combat.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

The Cleric/Archer in an AMF and without his equipment is not that powerful. He is a little below a core Fighter in power. The one advantage to the build is that he no longer get's screwed by a few Greater Dispellings or a Globe of Invulnerability. Now only a full-on AMF will totally screw him.

Here are a few other problems with that build.

*The 50% spell failure means that he'll use double the slots for all his persistant spells, and not be able to cast his spells relaibly in combat. He has to cast them while in the AMF for them to work in the AMF,

*The fact that the animal buff spells were all nerfed to not be double, tiply, etc Empowered, Extended, etc. and then also reduced in a duration means that in a standard adventuring setting, he's not using those spells, or getting as much out of them. Since the other spells were also made so that metamagic no longer stacks, a bunch of his spells are no longer as useful. for example, he can't use the extend rod on his Foresights any more(it won't function in the AMF).

*The rules for tower shields have changed, meaning that the +15 to AC has been nixed.

*Haste has changed, reducing his AC further, and make it impossible for a full attack and spell(unless its quickened).

*Even if he didn't have the AMF, he could only use one animated shield, as per the new rules.

*Divine Power has changed, only giving a +6 Enhancement to Str, which won't stack with most other buffs.

In total, after all his buffs, he'll get one good round of attacks before the fighter Disarms him and Sunders his armor. Then he's toast.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by fbmf »

IMX, he probably only needs one round of attacks. YMMV.

Game On,
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

In an AMF, the Mystra Cleric Archer can Wind Walk, and fire +5 Arrows, and everyone else can fire normal missiles (which a Mystra Cleric can be protected from), and fly if and only if they have natural wings.

Good luck, you'll need it. No player character made out of the player's handbook can hurt such a character.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

K wrote:Sunders his armor.


SRD wrote:You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082563356[/unixtime]]*The 50% spell failure means that he'll use double the slots for all his persistant spells, and not be able to cast his spells relaibly in combat. He has to cast them while in the AMF for them to work in the AMF,


You'd let the cleric use Persistent Spell? COme on, stop pretending. No magic-less creature can come anywhere near it. Divine Power, Divine Might, Righteous Might, plus GMW, MV, and aid, is about all it'll need, don't you think?
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Where did I ever say that my fighter would be magic-less?

Magical equipment is far, far more valuable on a fighter-type character than anyone else. A +5 vorpal, flaming, shock, thundering, acidic, frost, annoying sword may be nice, but for the price you can get a bunch of rings, wonderous items, utility weapons like Ghost Touch swords and armor and the like, and be way more useful in a bunch of different situations.

No twentieth level anything is worth a damn without a wide range of magical equipment to deal with a wide range of situations.

To the guest,

Armor can be sundered. If you read the Sunder rules, you would know that attacking armor comes under the "Attacking a worn or carried object" heading, and on the little chart it clearly shows that armor has a hardess equal to the material, and hp of 5 times the Armor bonus(making the Cleric archer's Chain shirt have a whopping 20 HP). I don't remember if magic items have extra hps, but as only a +1 item in an AMF, it has no more HP than a regular piece of armor.

In fact, with the Improved Sunder feat, a fighter can sunder his bow, his shield, and then his armor with one attack(since the feat gives an extra attack per sucessful Sunder), leaving his iterative weapon attacks, and his shield bashes for the guy who just lost 16 points of AC.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

A 20th level cleric rocks, w/o any magical items. So, if the cleric's spells work in the AMF, and the fighter's magic items still don't work in that AMF, that fighter is dead meat. Right?

That cleric can have a +12 str (at least), fighter BAB, +5 weapons, +5 armor, be a size larger, have a stackable +6/+6 bonus to hit and damage, and whatever else the cleric wants to add. The fighter gets . . . a bunch of feats. Plus, the cleric can fly, teleport, and unleash all sorts of spell-based whup-ass.

Clerics don't need anything except their spells, and straight-from-the-PHB equipment. Everything else is just gravy.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Again, who says that you have to enter the AMF? It only has a radius of ten feet. Ever hear of Reach? Ranged weapons?

And second, that cleric is not a "straight out of the box" cleric. Splatbook feats, Domains, and spells do make a big difference.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

Again, who says that you have to enter the AMF? It only has a radius of ten feet. Ever hear of Reach? Ranged weapons?


All of which become non-magical if they attack within the AMF.

There is no way for the Fighter to even overcome the Cleric's DR.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

What DR? Even if its 15 points, the fighter can put out more damage. After the cleric has all his weapons Sundered, he's going to have a bit of trouble fighting back.

And there is nothing to say that the Fighter can't have his own AMF, one that will destroy the Cleric's spells and DR.

A flying Dragon Disciple with a Ring of Spell Storing(AMF) will be down a few BAB points, but totally juice that guy, and that's pure DMG goodness.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

SRD wrote:Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.


K, your argument is that the sentence in bold can be ignored because a table giving hit point values for armor exists? Even if we lived in a strange universe in which that made any sense whatsoever, the primary source, the text, still wins.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082582277[/unixtime]]What DR?


At a minimum, from Righteous Might.

You gain damage reduction 5/evil (if you normally channel positive energy) or damage reduction 5/good (if you normally channel negative energy).


None of the fighter's magic junk is worth squat. The cleric can always be w/in 10' (assuming that matters, what w/ widen spell around . . .)

I'm not that concerned about dragons. They don't have missile weapons, and the ridiculous range modifiers mean the cleric's raining holy death on them from 1000 feet away.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

DR 5 is nothing. Really. Not when you take into account the amount of damage a fighter can dish out. A level 20 fighter can easily be riding his flying horse, charge, and do 100 pts of damage with one attack.

Dragons at a CR big enough to threaten a level 20 dude can cast Invisibility after the first attacks, and then close the distance, grapple the cleric, and then eat him. True Seeing, even if the guy had it, only has a range of 60 ft.

Guest,
I'm surprised about the armor thing. You can attack and sunder in a man's hand, but when you tape it to his behind it suddenly becomes invulnerable. Odd.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by RandomCasualty »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082582277[/unixtime]]What DR? Even if its 15 points, the fighter can put out more damage. After the cleric has all his weapons Sundered, he's going to have a bit of trouble fighting back.


He's going to win the opposed rolls how again?

the cleric has righteous might: +8 strength, divine power: +6 strength, divine favor: +5 attack and greater magic weapon: +5 attack.

That's a +17 bonus the fighter doesn't have. Even if he's got absolute max strength with only inherent bonuses and class increases, 32, versus the cleric with a strength of 12, the cleric still has a +7 edge. He won't succeed on the opposed roll very muhc, and good luck sundering a +5 weapon when yours is just masterwork. Unless the cleric is too stupid to buy an adamantine weapon (don't count on it), you wont' get far with this tactic.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082587072[/unixtime]]DR 5 is nothing. Really. Not when you take into account the amount of damage a fighter can dish out. A level 20 fighter can easily be riding his flying horse, charge, and do 100 pts of damage with one attack.


Don't you get it? The cleric has an AMF. That flying horse is falling before the cleric gets hit. As if that matters, b/c that flying horse is also dead before the cleric even gets hit. The fighter could use Leadership levels to get a decent flying NPC mount that might survive a round of attacks from a cleric archer. But even then, it's just delaying the inevitable.

(BTW, range of True Seeing is 120'.)
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

The cleric/archer in the example has a bow and a wooden mace. Easy Sunder material if the fighter uses Adamantine weapons(which at 20th level, he is).

The fighter also can use reach, and a two handed weapon to get to use his weapon outside the field. There's no ruling that a magic weapon that is partially in a AMF doesn't get its bonus. Even if there was, the fact that he's outside the AMF, and using a two handed weapon gives him a +4 for the weapon size, and a +3 for his +6 Strength(item of enhancing Str), +2 for Weapon focus and Greater Weapon focus, Barbarian Rage for another +2, and any old enchantment you can think of. Not a sure thing, but with a few attacks, its can be done.

If the cleric uses a Adamantine weapons, then the fighter could be forced to use a Disarm Action....At a +4 to the above stats with Improved Disarm.

Also, a sling with adamantine bullets can be used to destroy weapons using the "attacking a held object" rules. No opposed roll there.

If the fighter uses a Ring of Spell Storing with a quickened AMF, the cleric will have no bonuses, and the fighter will have his quite impressive Str vs. the cleric/archer's listed Strenght of 9 and BAB of 15.

The cleric archer/IoM in an aMF is a very powerful build, but it is not the "win DnD" build that people think it is.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

I said flying horse because i didn't want to list hippogriffs, giant eagles, rocs, dragons, pegasus(sp?), asperi, dragonnne, etc.

All of them fly non-magically.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

There's no ruling that a magic weapon that is partially in a AMF doesn't get its bonus.


Actually, there is. Your line of effect for magic and magical bonuses ends when you touch the AMF.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082592130[/unixtime]]The cleric/archer in the example has a bow and a wooden mace. Easy Sunder material if the fighter uses Adamantine weapons(which at 20th level, he is).

The fighter also can use reach, and a two handed weapon to get to use his weapon outside the field. There's no ruling that a magic weapon that is partially in a AMF doesn't get its bonus. Even if there was, the fact that he's outside the AMF, and using a two handed weapon gives him a +4 for the weapon size, and a +3 for his +6 Strength(item of enhancing Str), +2 for Weapon focus and Greater Weapon focus, Barbarian Rage for another +2, and any old enchantment you can think of. Not a sure thing, but with a few attacks, its can be done.

If the cleric uses a Adamantine weapons, then the fighter could be forced to use a Disarm Action....At a +4 to the above stats with Improved Disarm.

Also, a sling with adamantine bullets can be used to destroy weapons using the "attacking a held object" rules. No opposed roll there.

If the fighter uses a Ring of Spell Storing with a quickened AMF, the cleric will have no bonuses, and the fighter will have his quite impressive Str vs. the cleric/archer's listed Strenght of 9 and BAB of 15.

The cleric archer/IoM in an aMF is a very powerful build, but it is not the "win DnD" build that people think it is.


Well, you totally underestimate the Cleric-Archer. Archer's don't just sit there. When the fighter's close enough, it can either teleport another 1000' away, or switch to its own adamantine mace (which is all metal, btw) and just bash away.

I also fail to see the Fighter w/ an AMF thing working. IIRC, AMFs just ignore each other. Now the fighter's own junk doesn work, but the cleric is still immune to the AMF. Isn't it?
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Sma »

Hi, its me again

For the sake of simplicity I´ll have a look at the two duking it out in melee, leaving out fancy tactics and mobility out of the picture. If anyone starts running or flying or tries any fancy schmancy maneuvering the Cleric clearly has more options as he can still cast while the fighter the fighter never could. If anyone wants to do a breakdown for ranged combat, have fun :)

Buffed-Up Cleric
Str 20 +6 DM +8 RM
Dex 12
Con 15 +4 RM

Buffs in use:
Divine Might, Righteous Might,Greater Magic Weapon, AMF, Shield of Faith, 2x Magic Vestment


Attacks 38/33/28/23
Damage d8 +23 (+12 STR +6 DF +5 GMW)
AC 40 (8+5 Full Plate + 2+5 Shield +5 SoF +1 Dex +4 RM)

Large, Primary caster

versus the

Fighter
STR 30 (starting 20 +5 Levels +5 Tome
Dex 12+
CON 23 (starting 18 +5 Tome)

Attacks 30/25/20/15
Damage 2d6+15
AC 19 (8 Plate +1 Dex)

average of about 7+

Tons of Feats, effective SR of 26 (~30% spell failure)

Assuming a roll of ten on the attacks this comes out at about 110 points of damage to the Fighter and about 22 to the Cleric for every turn of Full Attacks.
If the Fighter decides to sunder the clerics weapons, forcing the cleric to attack with his fists, it starts to look more favourable for him, but then he´s still only one quickened DC 21+ away from being CDG´d, and at the rate the Cleric is taking damage this should even out.

Possibly there is a build that´s optimized against the Buff Cleric, but then there´s probably a specialized Buff Cleric that´s optimized against this build, given a days notice.

So yes, as has been said, being an Initiate of Mystra is totally worth it, if you´re out to win D&D.

Sma :smile:
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