The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

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Lago_AM3P
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The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Lago_AM3P »

This feat would be over-the-top with just Anyspell, which is exactly like Mystic Theurge except that you get to take your levels in a crazy cleric PrC rather than sucking.

Holy Star- Grants a +10 circumstance bonus to AC that stacks with everything. Holy crap, scry-and-die clerics will own your ass more than they already do.

Spell Phylactery- Clerics getting access to two contigent spells at once is utter madness.

And the grant benefit of the feat--your spells work in anti-magic fields! That's right. You can now beat the complete crap out of even shapechanged uber-druids without even breaking a sweat. The only thing you have to worry about is monsters with ex abilities. However, you can throw on an anti-life shell on top of that and gain access to reach or a ranged weapon, so you are almost completely invincible against everything except the mordenkainen's disjunction spell or sun giants with spiked chains. Works even better with caster level boosts. Best feat EVER, even better than item familiar.

I'm getting this feat for my clerics RIGHT NOW. Anything that makes even druids curl up at your feet and cry gets a triple A-plus in my book.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

Note also that this feat creates a brand new mechanic for Antimagic Fields - that of having their caster level make any good god damn difference at all.

It brings up a very strange edge case - the only time I can think of when it is always to your advantage to cast a spell at the lowest possible caster level. In order to cast spells in your own antimagic field, you have to overcome your own antimagic field's caster level.

Also it gives no mechanic at all for what happens when a previously existing spell of your is brought into an antimagic field.

Urg. Terrible writing, and astoundingly overpowered. Anyone who uses this feat is able to compete on an Epic scale while still in the 11th - 13th level range.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

The caster check for an Antimagic Field is not new:

An Antimagic Field does not automatically suppress epic spells as it does standard spells. Instead, each time an epic spell is subject to an antimagic field, make a dispel check as a 20th-level caster (1d20 + 20). The epic spell has a DC of 11 + the epic spell’s spellcaster level. If the suppression check is successful, the epic spell is suppressed like any other spell. If the dispel check is unsuccessful, the epic spell functions normally.



However, the feat merely looks like is allows you to cast your spells while in an AMF. It doesn't seem to let their effects function in an AMF. Since an AMF doesn't block line of effect, this means that spells that have effects past the AMF are OK, but buff spells are right out. A strange but pretty powerful spellcasting technique.


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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Since an AMF doesn't block line of effect, this means that spells that have effects past the AMF are OK, but buff spells are right out.


That is completely incorrect.

Benefit: You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an anti magic field. In a dead magic zone, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 20 + the level of the spell you are trying to cast. In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11 + the caster level of the antimagic field.

If this check is successful, your spell functions normally.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Its all up to how you interprete it.

In dead and wild magic fields, preexisting magics can enter, but when you cast is when things go wrong(either not happening or going wild). Normal in this situation would mean that you cast your spell without the casting being cancelled by the Dead magic or or causing a Wild Surg in the Wild Magic Field.

In an AMF, you can't cast spells(they stay in your memory or as slots if your try), and all effects of spells are suppressed.

A strong argument can be made that the normal effect of a spell effect in an AMF is supression. It does say in the first line something like "you can cast your spells...," which means that they won't stay in your memory or as slots. It doesn't explicitly say "Your spell effects are not suppressed in an AMF."

Confusing writing, anyway.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Or you can bypass all of the vague crap and get into where it really matters.

Cast your OWN anti-magic field. You're a cleric, and of Mystra no less so this should not be a problem.

Cast your buffs and whatnot.

Totally win D&D.

Since other anti-magic fields explicitly do not affect your own, you're immune to other anti-magic fields. So the issue of what happens when your own spell effect comes into a field (which is vague) rather than if it originates in the AMF (which is explicit) doesn't even need to come up for you to stomp the crap out of the opposition.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

The feat text that was placed on the board merely says that you can cast spells while in an AMF(which if you tried normally would just leave the spell or slot in your head).

It doesn't say anything about letting any effects of any spells not be affected by an AMF. Casting a spell and recieving its effects are two seperate things.

Now, if it said "If you make your check, the spell is cast and its effects are not affected by the AMF, Dead magic or Wild magoic zone," then there'd be no argument.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

It doesn't say anything about letting any effects of any spells not be affected by an AMF.


Yes it does. It says that the spell functions normally.

Thus, when you cast a personal buff spell while in the Antimagic Field you personally cast, the personal buff spell "functions normally" - which means you get the bonus of Divine Power while in an Antimagic Field.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

The normal effect of an spell effect in an AMF is suppression.

Normally, you can't cast spells while in an AMF(the action cannot take place). I think that this feat allows you to cast the spell, but it does not allow effects to enter the AMF. That's why there is no mechanic for what happens to your spells that are cast outside of an AMF that then entering the AMF.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082407842[/unixtime]]The normal effect of an spell effect in an AMF is suppression.


:wtf:

K, I've seen some obtuse rule interperatations in my day, but this definatly is the best in a while.

Why in perdition even mention AntiMagic feilds if no matter what you do your spells don't work in them?

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

K, I just want you to know that that made no god damned sense at all.

That's like saying that an ability which allows you to act normally while at negative hit points doesn't do anything because your normal action while at less than zero hit points is to lie there and bleed.

If it says it functions normally in the antimagic field, it means that it functions as if there was no antimagic field for it. Just like if you can act normally while at negative hit points, you act as if you did not have negative hit points.

There are no semantic games you can play which will make this feat not broken. It's broken, the concept is broken. Give it up.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Desdan,
The feat lets you cast spells while in an AMF, something that normally can't happen.

A spell functioning normally, if it could be cast in an AMF, would mean that since AMFs don't block line of effect, you could cast a Lightning Bolt, but it wouldn't stop being suppressed until the area effect(the bolt) left the AMF.

This is why there is no mechanic for the situation where your spells cast outside of an AMF function if put into an AMF.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

I think I'd better ask this again.

Why write the effects of this feat on an AntiMagic Feild if that feat has no effect on that AntiMagic Feild. Why not leave it out, and save a little room and book space?

You aren't making one lick of sense here K. Frank's right. The normal effect of a Fireball spell is for the little ball of bat-shit to fly to the point you specify and then explode, buringing everything in a 20-ft radius. THAT is the spell funcioning normally. AntiMagic feilds supress that effect, making nothing happen, instead. At this point the spell is NOT funcioning normally.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

K, you can normally cast spells in an antimagic field. The effects are just suppressed. You can cast bull's str, etc., no problem. Per the normal rules.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

The Hanged man has apparently sufficient gamer mojo to force me to reread the SRD.

I was sure that the AMF stopped spellcasting. I was totally wrong.

This now leads me to believe that the need for the IoM feat is zero. Since spells can be cast in an AMF, wizards can cast spells that target things outside the AMF to their heart's content. This feat basically just lets you cast Bull Strength on yourself(which I don't do, as a wizard), or Polymorph(which I rarely do, since the more powerful forms don't let me cast spells).

Keep your distance, and no spellcaster can hurt you(Unless they use summoned monster's with spell resistance).
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Ps. After further reading, I see this:

Since AMF is an emanation, as per the rules your are not in the AoE, and thus you could cast spells on yourself all you want(since the defination of an emanation is that it is like a burst, but continuous. If a Burning Hands doesn't burn you, then the AMF doesn't affect you.)
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

I'm calling shenanigans again.

According to the rules on emanations you are in the emmanation. It covers everything in the area, and the area is centered on you. While that could be interpretted as being everything outside of you - it's not because it has that line about you extending beyond the AMF if you are really big. It's a point emanation and it is in the middle of your body. So you are damn right it includes you.

I honestly don't understand why you can't just look at this feat, accept that it is completely overthetop nuts - relegate it to the circular file and move on with your life.

Increasingly bizzare rules interpretations only make you look foolish - they don't solve anything.

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

Centered on you was the confusing part. Totally wrong there.

However, AMF will still let you cast spells that affect targets outsdie the AMF. So how is having a few buffs important?
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by RandomCasualty »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082474931[/unixtime]]So how is having a few buffs important?


Cause everyone else is hosed in the AMF and you don't care. you have GMW on your weapons, magic vestment on your armor, so you've got magic weapons... they don't. You've got divine favor and divine power, maybe righteous might... also making you awesome.

So look at a fighter versus a cleric in this scenario. The cleric has all his buffs and magic equipment, the fighter has a MW adamantine greatsword and MW mithril armor :rolleyes:

On a side note, personally I'd just like to see antimagic fields removed from the game. They just totally make playing a caster no fun, because there's absolutely nothing you can do against them.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by User3 »

First, a fighter is going to clean that cleric's clock. He's got like three times as many feats, and the option of just using ranged attacks. I don't see the cleric winning. Most combat oriented monsters will also just eat him.

Show me a tricked out cleric as fighter build, and I show you an non-tricked out fighter or monster and how he'll kill him.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

Show me a tricked out cleric as fighter build, and I show you an non-tricked out fighter or monster and how he'll kill him.


:lol:

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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by fbmf »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1082476816[/unixtime]]
Show me a tricked out cleric as fighter build, and I show you an non-tricked out fighter or monster and how he'll kill him.


This is a joke, right?

Game On,
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Jack_Lurch »

K wrote:
Show me a tricked out cleric as fighter build, and I show you an non-tricked out fighter or monster and how he'll kill him.


On the off chance that the above is not intended to be a joke...

fbmf at [unixtime wrote:1070467663[/unixtime]]
Frank, over at Nifty wrote:
OK, now it's time for everyone's favorite piece of cheese - the Artjer Cleric. I've drawn on elements from FRCS, Tome and Blood, and Defenders of the Faith. Everything else, including the character's race - comes directly from the Core Books.

For the purpose of this discussion, the Character will be a Lawful Good:

Cleric 6/ Church Inquisitor 3/ Divine Disciple 2/ Contemplative 6/ Sacred Exorcist 3


Race: Grey Elf
Domains: Elf, War, Inquisition, Exorcism, Mysticism, Time, Plant
Feats: Point Blank Shot*, Weapon Focus: Longbow*, Improved Initiative*, Extend Spell, Extra Turning*, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Persistant Spell, Power attack, Divine Might, Empower Spell

Abilities:
Str 9 (18)
Dex 21 (25-31)
Con 13 (17-23)
Int 15 (17)
Wis 28 (34)
Cha 16 (24-28)

Spell Slots:
1st: 8+1
2nd: 8+1
3rd: 8+1
4th: 8+1
5th: 6+1
6th: 6+1
7th: 6+1
8th: 6+1
9th: 5+1

Spell Usage per day:
1st: Endure Elements: all 5.
2nd: Undetectable Alignment
3rd: Water Breathing, x2 Extended Deathwatch (twice)
4th: Extended Magic Vestment (Shield), Extended Magic Vestment (Tower Shield), Extended Magic Vestment (Armor), Extended Spikes (morningstar)
5th: Persist Divine Favor, Extended GMW (Bow), Extended GMW (Arrows), Persist Entropic Shield, Extended GMW (morningstar)
6th: Extended x2 Empowered Cat's Grace (Domain Slot- Rod), Persist Speak with Animals, Wind Walk
7th: Extended x2 Empowered Eagle's Splendor (+4-10 charisma), Extended x2 Empowered Endurance (+4-10 Constitution), Persist Blessed Aim, Extended x5 Barkskin (domain slot), Persist Speak with Plants
8th: Persist Divine Power, Persist Weapon of Diety, Persist Repel Vermin, Persist Freedom of Movement, Extended Foresight (Domain Slot- Rod), Extended x5 Magic Circle Against Evil
9th: x2 Extended Foresight (Domain Slot- Rod), x5 Extended Tongues, x5 Extended Deathward, x5 Extended Air Walk

Equipment:
+1 Animated Darkwood Tower Shield (9630)
+1 Animated Steel Shield of Speed and Command (64170)
+1 Mithril Chain Shirt of Greater Fortification (37300)
+1 Mighty Darkwood Longbow of Shock, Fire and Frost (32730)
100 +1 darkwood arrows of spell storing (16750)
50 +1 darkwood Ghost Touch Arrows (8375)
+5 Cloak of Resistance (25000)
Ring of Counterspells - Greater Dispelling (4000)
Ring of Protection +5 (50000)
Bracers of Archery (5100)
Rod of Greater Extension (48600)
Clear Ioun Stone (20000)
Quiver of Ehlonna (1800)
Periapt of Wisdom (36000)
Robe of Eyes (90000)
Tome of Understanding +4 (11000)
Tome of Leadership +3 (82500)
Payment for gate invoked wishes adding +1 to all stats (13200)
Karma Bead (5000)
Boots of Striding and Springing (6000)
Eyepatch of True Seeing (75000)
Gloves of Storing (4400)
Headband of Intellect +2 (4000)
10 Pearls of Power I (10000)
Darkwood Morningstar (388)

Attack
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Morale
+6 Luck
+10 Enhancement
+2 Competance
+8 Dexterity
+20 BAB
DaMaGe
+6 Luck
+10 Enhancement
+1 Competance
+8 Divine Might
+4 Strength
Saves
+5 Resistance
+8 Charisma
+3 Luck
+1 Competance
+2 Insight (Reflex Only)
AC
15 Cover
+7 shield
+9 Armor
+5 Natural Armor
+6 Dexterity
+5 Deflection
+2 Insight
+4 Haste
10 Base


Ranged Attacks: +49, +47/+47/+42/+37/+32
Ranged Damage: d8+3d6+29 (average 44 19-20 threat, critical adds 2d8+58 average 110) + spell effect (such as 3d8+15 damage of inflicted wounds - 28.5 damage save for half)
Melee Attacks: +33, +33/+28/+23/+18
Melee Damage: d8+33 (average 37 19-20 threat)
Saves: Fort: +31, Ref: +25, Will: +36
AC: 63

Every morning prayer begins with the activation of the karma bead - meaning that each day's worth of prayers are at caster level 24. The first greater dispelling cast upon her is automatically dispelled, and since she is hasted at all times, restocking the ring of counterspells is a trivial matter.

She is immune to poison, death effects, charm effects, critical hits, alignment detection, surprise, flat-footedness, 6 HD or less vermin (including that generated by creeping doom), disease (even magical disease), and effects that restrict movement such as paralysis or hold.

She can breathe water or air, and can walk on earth and sky with impunity. She can see the invisible and in the dark and through illusions for 120 feet. She can assume cloud form or detect evil at will and is resistant to fire, acid, sonic, electricty and cold.

She can speak with plants, animals, or any creature which has a language, and has a diplomacy bonus of over +30. She can dispel illusions with a touch at will, and gains a +4 bonus on all dispelling checks. She is resistant to possessing entities - but that generally doesn't matter because she is constantly in a MCaE effect that prevents possession and bodily contact from extraplanar creatures.

She still has spells left over, and her Implosion has a not-inconsiderable Save DC of 31, but primarily she is a warrior and diplomat, leaving the "spellcasting" to wizards. Several of her stats are given a range, as they are based on multiply empowered enhancement spells that last for two days. I have assumed that between the two copies of each which are active on her at all times, she rolled at least a '2' on the d4 - obviously her stats would rise considerable were she to roll a 4 instead. Note Also: when engaging in melee she has to store her animated tower shield, which drops her AC - a lot.

PS: Her Spot bonus is very large, over +30 before adding any actual ranks to the skill.


I play one in my twice monthly campaign. They rock!

Note that Frank's example was mostly for illustration purposes and represents the best case scenario, but if you were anywhere near this, you'd be awesome.

Game On,
fbmf


Then modify for 3.5 as follows:

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1073242782[/unixtime]]Why would you need to use Quicken instead of Persistent?

Persistent is still official in 3.5!

3.5 is supposedly "back compatible" with 3rd edition rules. That is to say, anything that you can find in a 3rd edition rulebook you can still use - unless it has itself been updated into 3.5 rules in which case the newer version takes precedence.

So Spell Focus only provides a measily +1 to Save DCs, but Spellcasting Prodigy still gives you a whole +2 to your spellcasting stat (which, among other things, adds +1 to the save DC of every spell you ever cast from any school). Which means, oddly enough, that everything which didn't make it into 3.5 because it was overpowered is still exactly the same (and often slightly better -relatively speaking - as the overall power level except for abusive tricks took a nose dive in 3.5).

Be that as it may, here are the big rules things to keep track of for the Archer Cleric:

* The Archer Cleric now benefits from carrying a sling as a back-up weapon, as ranged sunders with adamantine sling bullets practically always work against everything (except Adamantine Swords).

* Arrows no longer have their enhancement bonus stack with bow enhancement bonuses for damage or to-hit bonuses. Therefore all Archer Clerics should invest in Arrows of Defending - as this allows the Cleric to utilize the enhancement bonus from one greater magic weapon for the to-hit and damage bonus, and the other to armor class. In fact, since it stacks with all other bonuses (including that of other defending arrows fired that round), and the bonus lasts until next turn, this is a handy way to get +30 AC in unnamed, stackable bonuses (assuming, of course, that you are using Haste Armor backed up by Magic Vestment, which you are because you are not stupid).

* Cleric Archers can now benefit from having a higher strength from Polymorph any Object - as bows are no longer capped at any strength modifier, and Divine Power no longer caps your strength at 18. The obvious choice, of course, is to become a Solar or an Elemental Weird as their "spells" ability is of course a "special attack" which is neither Supernatural nor Spell-like (and the Weird's elemental pool restriction is a special quality that you don't even get).

* Barkskin now cumulates with the natural armor bonus granted by Poly Any Object.

* You can jack up your caster level to levels which are... very high. Since the only real use a spellcaster level over 20 has is to kill things with Holy Word - you are now free to squander up to 3 caster levels on classes that give you other abilities and still achieve maximum whupass at 20th level. Of course, the Hospitaler and such are still official, so it probably doesn't matter much.

* Tower Shields no longer give a +10 AC bonus, but instead give only a +4 AC bonus. They also no longer stack with other animated shields (total AC loss of -13).

* Haste no longer gives a +4 AC bonus, but instead gives only +1. However it also gives to-hit and save bonuses now.

* If you are willing to be evil, you can be a cleric archer without ever being a "Cleric" at all. A Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ MyTh 10/ Hospitaler 1/ Contemplative 1/ Master of Shrouds 1, for example, has a Wizard caster level of 16, and an Ur-Priest caster level of 22. In addition, she has no less than 5 domains (of which 3, are, unfortunately, Death, Evil, and Protection), and a Prestige Domain. She has proficiency in every martial weapon, so the War Domain is not strictly speaking a necessity.

Other than that - it's pretty much the same. The weapon sizes are much more open to abuse and of course GMW grows much slower (unless you use Karma Beads, in which case it grows as fast as you want it to).

In total, the Cleric Archer is about 2 or 3 points of attack bonus behind, but has gained 22 points of armor class and does 5.5 more points of damage per hit. And that's before we get into Ur-Priest crazy-land.

-Username17


Please note that this was written before PGtF was with us, so some things may have changed.

-Jack
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Wrenfield »

Frank Trollman wrote:* Arrows no longer have their enhancement bonus stack with bow enhancement bonuses for damage or to-hit bonuses. Therefore all Archer Clerics should invest in Arrows of Defending - as this allows the Cleric to utilize the enhancement bonus from one greater magic weapon for the to-hit and damage bonus, and the other to armor class. In fact, since it stacks with all other bonuses (including that of other defending arrows fired that round), and the bonus lasts until next turn, this is a handy way to get +30 AC in unnamed, stackable bonuses (assuming, of course, that you are using Haste Armor backed up by Magic Vestment, which you are because you are not stupid).
Just to note, the 3.5 SRD has the Defending enhancement only listed under Melee Weapon Special Abilities - it's not listed under the Ranged Weapon Special Abilities.

Which will make a huge difference in the astronomical AC of this Cleric Archer.

Also, that Ur-Priest build is not quite right, but easily fixable as well.
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Re: The Totally Insane Initiate of Mystra Feat

Post by Username17 »

Just to note, the 3.5 SRD has the Defending enhancement only listed under Melee Weapon Special Abilities - it's not listed under the Ranged Weapon Special Abilities.


So what?

Seriously, that chart has absolutely nothing to do with what items can and cannot be made. This has been gone over and over and over... the fact that the item chart can't generate a defending arrow in no way implies that you can't make one. The rules for making a +1 Defending Arrow are very very simple. It costs 80 gp and 3 XP.

Here's the most recent iteration of this argument.

Also, that Ur-Priest build is not quite right, but easily fixable as well.


Actually, you can do it that way, it just requires you to cast cleric spells for level trade-in. But you have those Cleric spells, so I'm not sure what you are getting at.

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