Should deities just go away in the core rules?

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Lago_AM3P
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Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Right now, I can't think of a single advantage to having deities in the game other than as an offhand nerf to clerics (though not really, since there is such a huge selection of deities in most settings) and having a spokesman for the DM.

We can still have domains and all that crap, but they should work like the domains for godless clerics and deities are just big NPCs of an organization the clerics belong to, rather than being the conduit of power.

Arguments?
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Username17 »

We don't even need Clerics as a separate class. Those few mechanics they have which are different from Wizards are:

1. Nonsensical.

and

2. Broken.

Can you think of a single reason why every Cleric should automatically be able to cast Dismissal or Plane Shift? Why every priest of a fire god should necessarily have delay poison or hide form undead?

If you want to be a Cleric, you should just take a spell list as a Wizard which matches your conception, and then announce that you are a Cleric. The mechanic of having to delve into dusty tomes in order to learn the secrets of your god works just as well as anything else - and represents many religions (for example: Talmudic Scholars of Judaism) much better than the current granting of an all-you-can-eat buffet.

There was a reason for Clerics to exist back when their sole purpose was as a healer for parties where noone qualified to be a Paldin. As soon as they started busting out with Evil Clerics there's been no reason for the class. And now that we have specialty clerics there's really no reason for the class.

The gods don't need to be there because the cleric doesn't need to be there.

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by RandomCasualty »

I dunno, the godless cleric always struck me as lame and flavorless. If you're gonna have a godless cleric, they might as well be a wizard or a sorcerer, as Frank is saying.

The fact that makes the cleric different is that he gets his powers from a deity, and acts more as a conduit of power as opposed to a weilder of that power himself.

Personally I think the godless cleric should just go away... if you want to not worship anything and tap into the essence of the world on your own, then be a wizard or a sorcerer.
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

IMO, there's three basic things wrong with the godless cleric, assuming you want it to work basically as a cleric and not eliminate it completely like Frank.

First, godless clerics often get huge advantages b/c they can pick any two synergistic domains. In FR, maybe not so important, but to core players like me, huuuuuge diff. If you want to cut back that power a little, eliminating godless clerics helps.

Second, godless clerics are roleplaying black holes if other clerics worship dieties. This translates into mechanical problems if deities actively watch alignment, spells, miracles, etc. If you eliminate deities altogether, you get rid of all this RP stuff, which I kind of like. YMMV.

Third, godless clerics never really make sense if deities actually exist. If clerics can get power straight from Great Buju instead of requiring a god-like intermediary, it's hard to see why anyone cares about that god-like intermediary. The gods become more like Taltos's Lords of Judgment than actual sources of power, and so lose any useful function as Givers of Right and Wrong. So, if you allow, or only allow, godless clerics, it implies a reordering of the cosmos that gets rid of a lot of RP Mojo. Deities aren't "just NPC's" (which they always were), they are fundamentally irrelevant.

IMO, you're better off getting rid of the godless cleric and requiring deities.
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Username17 »

The gods cannot exist as givers of right and wrong in D&D. There is a god for every single point of view.

Which is to say, there are just as many gods of "wrong" as there are gods of "right". There are also gods of not really giving a fig.

Doing something because the gods tell you to doesn't make any sense in D&D anyways - the gods are substantially less likely to have a reasonable position on any particular issue than some random human you select off the street.

Only one god out of every three is actually in favor of stamping out sickness or feeding the hungry. You would get substantially superior moral advice waiting on a street corner and asking the first five people who walked out of the Hog's Head than you would by sitting on a mountain top and waiting for a divine signal.

Not because the gods aren't going to answer - they will - but their collective claim on ethics is zero. Not because they haven't thought about it - but because collectively their ethical opinions really do add up to zero. They take every opinion with equal weight divided amongst the whole of them.

That's the problem with the entire Great Wheel cosmology. There's no reason to go to the Gods for anything because they are collectively less helpful than Karl the Drunkard.

"Divine" doesn't mean "good" it means "arbitrary".

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

WTF? You're ignoring the fact that each deity has a specific ethos, and an alignment. Although in sum they may all cancel each other out, for any worshipper of a deity, that deity is the lawmaker. The D&D mythology isn't a consensus. If you decide Vecna's the god for you, Vecna's doctrine guides your morality. Go w/ Pelor, things are a little different. And deciding to follow that god, and that ethos, gives you certain powers and abilities, including spells.

The fact that the "gods" might not have a specific ethos as a group is just as irrelevant as saying, b/c the Senate ties 50-50 on whether flag-burning should be a crime, individual Senators don't have any opinions on flag burning.
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Username17 »

I'm ignoring nothing.

For every god who has an opinion one way, there is another god whose opinion goes the other way.

Unless you only go by published gods, in which case the gods of evil far outnumber the gods of good.

If you primarily worship Vecna, that doesn't mean that you don't also worship other gods. Every god is actualy real, and actually rewards you for giving them the proper respect.

This is a universe in which there is apparently a god of everything. If you go to take a bath, there's a god of bathing right there to help you along. If you eat Cheerios - there's a god of that too.

And why the hell not? If you were living in a universe in which the god of travellers was actually real and actually offered to protect you sometimes, wouldn't you pay your respects a bit when travelling?

Anything you do is going to make some gods happy and anger other gods. If you do anything well enough or with enough gusto - gods will come in to reward and smite you. Fortunately, gods have a much tougher time with the smiting than with the rewarding - so you are going to come out ahead. The "godless" Cleric is simply the person who notices this fact about the world and goes ahead and lives life to the fullest.

By really truly making cheese cake when you want to make cheese cake, you are going to anger the gods of hunger and the gods of dissappointment - but the gods of baking and the gods of milk products are going to reward you with spells. And maybe the next day, you'll go fix a house, and by really doing that with your whole self you'll be rewarded by the god of carpentry and the god of hearth and whatever.

Even if you require specific gods for some damn reason, you can do the same thing - just Atone every single day.

I'm not kidding. When your god loses favor with you, the spells you've been granted by praying don't actually go away. If one of them is atonement you can switch to a new god who will give you spells by spending that slot. Just remember to prepare an atonement this time - you're probably going to need it. Heck, this methodology lets you actually trade domains around.

Worshipping a single god to the exclusion of others in D&D is pointless.

More importantly, the god list is specifically not exhaustive (hence the existence of Hrugek or Blipdeboop or however you spell those guys, despite the fact that they aren't on the main list). Every good god has an evil counterpart, but there are extra evil gods with no good counterpart. And there are specifically an equal number of good and evil and neutral gods total. So if for some reason it's really important to you - just worship the goddess of shrimp or butterflies, or house work, or whatever. There's one out there with whatever combination of domains you want - so just take one.

OR just remove the Cleric class. The only way for all these stupid cleric specialties to have any flavor is if they had different spell lists. And the way divine spellcasting works - they can't. Which means that the Cleric Class doesn't support the flavor it's supposed to have. But, oddly enough, just folding all their spells into the Wizard list, letting Wizards get domains, and then having only one class does.

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

For lay people, I'm completely with you, Frank. This is why I never liked Forgotton Realms declaration that you must have a chosen patron god or you don't get to go to heaven when you die(Much less get brought back to life). It works on the false assumption that if you don't worship a specific god, you don't worship any god, when in reality I want to say a prayer to the god of travelers right before I set out on a journey, I want to say a prayer to the goddess of fertility that my baby is born alright, and a prayer to the god/goddess of nature so that my crops come in well this year. Hell, I also even want to say a prayer to the god of theives so that I don't get my purse stolen when I go to Market to buy something.

However, I disagree when it comes to clerics. The main duties of a cleric are not to go forth an slay the Bugblatter Beast of Traal. Oh, he or she may be called upon to do so, but the main duties of a cleric are to maintain the temple and tend to those who come to the temple seeking aid, and you don't go to a temple of Pelor if you want to say a prayer to Obad-hai. However the different denomonations would resemble monastic or knightly orders more than the autonomous churches we normally see.

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by RandomCasualty »

Frank you really don't give gods much respect... you also are assuming they're morons.

If a cleric doesnt' show strong devotion to one god, he gets jack shit. the god doesnt' have to grant him spells, and the god basicalyl just won't. Just because you've got levels in cleric doesn't mean any god has to specifically grant you spells, just like having paladin levels doesn't do anything for you if you're lawful neutral.

You have to worship a god strongly to get any kinds of spells, gods don't reward the fickle 1 day services you're giving as examples. They could give a rat's ass about it. If you think gods are that fickle then every commoner in your world should be casting miracles.

Gods are nearly omniscient, they know when your character isn't a true believer and they won't bother helping him if he's constantly changing his religion.

In fact, the existance of gods prevents the cleric cheese that you are talking about because gods are NPCs, and thus actively work to prevent any kind of abuse.

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Username17 »

The main duties of a cleric are not to go forth an slay the Bugblatter Beast of Traal. Oh, he or she may be called upon to do so, but the main duties of a cleric are to maintain the temple and tend to those who come to the temple seeking aid,


Why does this need to be a character class?

Rogues can be janitors if they really want, so can Wizards. If "Cleric" is a job roughly analogous to "Janitor" - then why does it need to be a character class? Sounds more like a subset of the Profession skill.

The only purpose of the "Cleric" class is to represent unique magical paths available to members of specific orders and cultures. And the Wizard mechanics do that better.

Frank you really don't give gods much respect...


Of course not. The gods are basically stupid. If they are really as powerful and knowledgeable as the game would have us believe, then we have Forgotten Realms Syndrome all over the place. Why isn't Pelor just doing this crap for us? Why doesn't the Symbul just solve this problem? Etc.

The only possible explanation for why the player characters have to do anything is that the gods are essentially completely predictable and irrelevent. So they are predictable and irrelevent. And I don't give them any "cred". Duh.

The only reason gods even have a place in the game at all is that some DMs want to be jack holes and push players around. It's pathetic, and has no place in a cooperative storytelling game.

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082528844[/unixtime]]
Of course not. The gods are basically stupid. If they are really as powerful and knowledgeable as the game would have us believe, then we have Forgotten Realms Syndrome all over the place. Why isn't Pelor just doing this crap for us?

There can be lots of good roleplaying reasons why they don't. Perhaps they are fighting multiple front wars on several other planes. Such minor problems are usually beneath them, and they use mortal worshippers to fight their battles.

It's really the same reason that your 20th level fighter doesn't go clearing out orc caves. It's just beneath him and he leaves the work to lower level people and spends his time doing more important stuff.


The only possible explanation for why the player characters have to do anything is that the gods are essentially completely predictable and irrelevent. So they are predictable and irrelevent. And I don't give them any "cred". Duh.


Irrelevant, hardly. They rule cities with theocracy, work miracles, and raise the dead.

Now, in forgotten realms the gods seem irrelevant because there are too damn many of them, and to make a pantheon that makes sense you can't have a god for everything like they try to do.

Some gods are stupid, I agree... but there are gods that can also be players. Bane for instance does a great deal of stuff, and his minions are everywhere. Shar set up the shadow weave and so on. Now we do also have useless gods like Denier who do absolutely nothing and might as well not exist, but that doesnt' mean all gods are stupid.

As for explanations why they don't intervene, there are plenty of them. Most of them simply involve wars on a cosmic multiplanar scale. A god doesn't devote all his energy to owning one plane for the same reason the balors don't gather all on one abyssal layer, and have a cleric of Orcus open a gate to let them all through. There are lots of things to do... infinite things to do in fact.

And when you look at it from an infinite scope, the day to day activities of most worshippers is relatively irrelevant, and you dont' want to bother doing much more than granting spells.
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by MrWaeseL »

RandomCasualty wrote:
There can be lots of good roleplaying reasons why they don't. Perhaps they are fighting multiple front wars on several other planes. Such minor problems are usually beneath them, and they use mortal worshippers to fight their battles.

It's really the same reason that your 20th level fighter doesn't go clearing out orc caves. It's just beneath him and he leaves the work to lower level people and spends his time doing more important stuff.


Excpet that the 20th level fighters doesn't get an infinite amoutn of turns per round, while gods do. (At least, if they've chosen alter reality)
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Ramnza »

I think that having a godless cleric defeats the idea of a cleric class. I've seen some pretty cheesey PC's who began as clerics. And I have to agree, if you don't want to play a character that worships a particular god, then play a wizard or a sorcerer. In the past I have found that some of the gods work in mysterious ways. They don't directly intervene. They have better things to do, but sometimes the PC's get a hint that something greater was here. It's nice flavor. :roundnround:
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Username17 »

Having gods in low level games is like having 28th level Wizards in low level games - or any other Giant Penis NPC. Any action, or inaction, on the part of any god is by definition the DM throwing his penis around.

And if the gods can do everything for you and don't, or if the gods could stop you and don't - then the DM is hitting you with his penis just as much as if the DM actually had the gods come in and smite your whole party.

In the real world, there aren't any gods. You can go to a mountain top and pray, and nothing will happen because nothing is there to answer your call.

But if the gods are real, as they are in many fantasy settings, then it invalidates any striving or choices of the player characters. If you kill the evil wizard - it is because Bane let you do it, if you kill the evil wizard, it's because Pelor would rather see you get stabbed in the arm than to drop lazers from the sky on the guy. Either way, your choices are meaningless, because they have to be approved by the gods on both sides before they can be allowed to continue.

Putting direct intervention by gods into the game makes the game worse, because it's the DM rubbing your face in the fact that he has editorial control over your success or failure. If I wanted a scripted ending - I'd read a frickin book, I wouldn't play a game at all.

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Frank, there's always something bigger and badder than the PC's that could just whipe the table with them, if it wanted to. So what?

We have a fundamental difference o' opinion on what the gods do. As you said earlier, the deities "cancel out" on a macro level. The bad guys get little bennies, the good guys get little bennies, but overall the god effect cancels out. Leaving it up to the little mortals to decide things. They settle things differently b/c of divine magic, powers, and occasional direct help, but it's still up to little guys to settle things. I see no problem w/ having active deities and at the same time effective choices for players.

Direct intervention is a plot device, not a world-building problem. Big Juju steps in b/c something needs to happen that isn't happening b/c of choices the players are making. Or maybe something needs to happen that the players can't reliably do at this point.

I don't generally DM w/ dieties stomping around, but occasionally I've just messed something up enough that the choices are either punt on the campaign or adventure, or bring in Big Juju. I'd rather use Big Juju, and my players would as well. I could just do revisionist history (which also happens), but IMO it's more elegant to at least pretend that everything is happening in-plot.

YMMV.
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082567805[/unixtime]]Having gods in low level games is like having 28th level Wizards in low level games


Exactly, and you still have these characters in low level games. They may not make an appearance for low level characters, but somewhere in your world they exist, or at least in the planes, and theoretically if you wanted them to, they could totally kick the PC's ass, but it makes no sense for them to do so, so they don't.

The same goes for great wyrms, high clerics, high level barbarians and rogues. And these things are supposed to exist in your world. Unless you run one fo those super low level games.

Those high level characters are background characters that are assumed to be doing some undefined important acts all the time that are more important than whatever the PCs are doing.

Sure, they could clean out the influx of ogres in the region without much of a thought and save your characters the trouble, but its not worth their time. High level characters, and gods especially tend to be arrogant. If your PC wouldnt' bother clearing orcs when he's 14th level, then neither shoudl NPCs.

As for the DM having control over his PCs, gimme a break. Everything happens only because the DM allows it, everyone knows that. If the DM wants to screw his PCs, then he can and they can't do a damn thing about it. It doesnt' have to be using gods or high level NPCs, it can be in the form of other no win situations.


Excpet that the 20th level fighters doesn't get an infinite amoutn of turns per round, while gods do. (At least, if they've chosen alter reality)

Well, this is the point where D&DG breaks down. You have to assume that even alter reality has limits, because it is draining some of the god's powers. While it's more or less useable as muhc as the god wants, eventually the god taps out.

Personally I disapprove of the whole practice of statting gods, because you can never truly quantify something liek that, and you end up makign stupid abilities like alter reality.

Gods should be done muhc like in the game Populous. You have a certain number of points based on people worshipping you. You use those power points to do miracles when you want to, but eventually you tap out. How much that stuff costs really isn't important or the total pool of any one god, because he's assumed to be fighting over several planes and constantly in a position where his power reserves aren't high enough to do total victory in one place without compromising himself in others. The cheapest use of his powers is granting mortals divine spells, so he does that the most.

Personally I find the ideas of gods doing actual combat against mortals to be really stupid. Unless you want your gods to be like the ancient greek gods, which technically didn't even grant powers to their worshippers, then you shouldn't be using physical avatars except to possibly pass around information.
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Username17 »

Exactly, and you still have these characters in low level games. They may not make an appearance for low level characters, but somewhere in your world they exist, or at least in the planes, and theoretically if you wanted them to, they could totally kick the PC's ass, but it makes no sense for them to do so, so they don't.


But unlike the 28th level Wizard, or the Great Wyrm, or any other high powered NPC - the god is unavoidable.

He's BIONIC FRICKIN SANTA CLAUS! He knows when you've been bad, he knows when you've been good, he knows when you are awake, and he knows when you are asleep. He can visit every house in the whole world at midnight of the same evening, and he's got a bag with an unlimited supply of rocket launchers in it.

You can hide from the Great Wyrm just by being out of his field of view. If you are five miles away and on the other side of a tree, the Great Wyrm doesn't know who you are - or even that you exist.

Bionic Frickin Santa Claus doesn't have that problem - he's totally aware of who you are and what you are doing and can effortlessly hit you with a maximized flame strike at any time.

There's no excuse for that. The spell that lets you hide from gods is 8th level - so unless and until you hit 15th level there is absolutely nothing you can do to keep any god from eliminating you at any time without the expenditure of effort.

It's like conducting all of your adventures inside the 28th level wizard's bathroom. It's not like he hasn't noticed you doing it - and he actually can stop you at any time.

By having the gods even be there the DM is saying "Play nice or I'll hit you with my giant penis again!"

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082579645[/unixtime]]
By having the gods even be there the DM is saying "Play nice or I'll hit you with my giant penis again!"


A DM doesnt' need gods to do this. If he doesnt' like what you're doing and wants to hose you, then he can.

He has infinite power, and any argument which restricts NPC characters because they empower the DM too much is pretty ridiculous.

DMs don't need gods to do this kind of thing. If they're just plain asshole DMs like this, then they'll find a way to screw you with or without gods. Your only defense against a DM like this is to get up from the table and walk away, so there's no point designing a game around an asshole DM.
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

C'mon, Frank. Any 17th level wizard or 18th level sorcerer can kill any PC, and be aware of any PC, that they're interested in. The key is interest. At low levels, no high-level NPC, including gods, care at all what the PC's do.

For me, 14th-15th level is when attention generally starts getting paid. YMMV
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Username17 »

The key is interest.


Exactly. And if the agencies granting spells have agendas - they are obviously interested. Even if it's only giving out 1st level spells - that's still interest.

Druids work conceptually because the thing they draw power from - Nature - doesn't care what you do. Paladins work conceptually because the thing they draw power from - Good - isn't all powerful.

Nature can crush you at any time, but it has no agenda and doesn't care what you do. Good in the abstract might want to put a stop to you, but it can't. That's why Good needs Paladins and Volcanoes do not follow you around.

But Pelor is all powerful and does care what you do. He's the volcano that chases people down. He's the font of Goodness that doesn't need a Paladin.

And since he doesn't need a Paladin - he doesn't need your Paladin. Your character is an entirely extraneous quantity in this equation. It makes no conceptual sense for you to strive and suffer to get your goals accomplished in this scenario. Pelor can build a better sand castle without effort. Bane can destroy your sand castle without even blinking. Both of them are looking over your shoulder, and the sense of futility is inescapable.

It's OK for Nature to be essentially all powerful and still have a meaningful story about the human spirit only because Nature does not have any agenda at all. It's OK for Good to have a definitive opinion about what should happen and still have a meaningful story about the human spirit only because Good can't do a blessed thing without some person going and doing it with their own two hands.

Godly villains can be like the ones from Buffy - Glory had no idea what was going on outside of her own field of view, and the First Evil can't actually touch or do anything at all. Godly villains do not work in a story if they have the First Evil's insight and Glory's power - there's nothing you can do. The opening credits happen, the First Evil has hands, so it does an immediate teleport ambush on you and you die.

Bionic Santa always wins. That's why he's Bionic Santa. And that's why you can't have any kind of meaningful story arc if Bionic Santa is in it.

If gods care what happens at all, then they need to not have Omniscience or Omnipotence or both if story is going to mean anything. Otherwise you are just dealing with fatalism and that's no fun to play.

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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

I'm just not following you here. Yeah, gods are all-powerful and don't need PC's. So what? They do their god-things, PC's do their PC-things. Unless the gods are interested in what the PC is doing, they might as well not exist except as a general source of divine power.

Sum total of the effect a deity has on a cleric's spells:

A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells . . .


Everything else is campaign-specific. You can think your deity is a puking pile of crud, as long as you follow the deity's code of conduct. Where does this interest come from? The campaign. Gods can wander through your world, and not be interested in what low-level characters do. Or they can be. Up to you.
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082587643[/unixtime]]
Druids work conceptually because the thing they draw power from - Nature - doesn't care what you do. Paladins work conceptually because the thing they draw power from - Good - isn't all powerful.

If it does't care then why is it granting him powers? If it's powerless to do anything, then how is it granting spells? Makes no sense.

And since he doesn't need a Paladin - he doesn't need your Paladin. Your character is an entirely extraneous quantity in this equation. It makes no conceptual sense for you to strive and suffer to get your goals accomplished in this scenario. Pelor can build a better sand castle without effort. Bane can destroy your sand castle without even blinking. Both of them are looking over your shoulder, and the sense of futility is inescapable.

No different from saying "there's a powerful gold dragon in the realms, no point in dealing with this orc problem, let him do it. He can do it without even taking a single point of damage."


It's OK for Nature to be essentially all powerful and still have a meaningful story about the human spirit only because Nature does not have any agenda at all.

Again, why grant powers at all, if you have no agenda. Obviously you care about something, otherwise it could care less about empowering druids.

The opening credits happen, the First Evil has hands, so it does an immediate teleport ambush on you and you die.

Why? It's going to randomly kill some 1st level character? Do your 20th level archmagi go around randomly blasting orcs? No, they could care less. Why should gods be any different.

If gods care what happens at all, then they need to not have Omniscience or Omnipotence or both if story is going to mean anything. Otherwise you are just dealing with fatalism and that's no fun to play.


Well D&D gods aren't totally omniscient, nor are they omnipotent. They're much more powerful than a mundane character, yes. But it doesn't mean they can afford to waste their time removing every little obstacle.

Like modern day armies they ration their powers and tend not to use a full blown attack unless its unavoidable. If the problem only requires a low level cleric then that's all they'll send. If they use up direct intervention dealing with every little problem, then they'll end up tapped out very fast. You don't order a nuclear strike at the first sign of enemy resistance, you'll probably just send in some marines. In the same manner, the god of justice isn't going to come down from the heavens to smite a simple pickpocket.

In many regards it's not that they don't have an agenda, it's that the agenda is so widespanning that any one event is relatively insignificant on a cosmic scale. You've got infinite planes with infinte numbers of layers, each stretches on to infinity. That's a lot of area to cover.

When you manage over infinity, you generally can't do everything for yourself, you need servants to help you do it. That's where clerics and celestials come in. And people do use mind blank, placing themselves beyond your sight, so you certainly want to use other means to keep track of them.

User3
Prince
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by User3 »

RC wrote:No, they could care less.


If they could care less, then they must care some amount greater than zero :P
Username17
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by Username17 »

Free Will doesn't mean anything unless the gods are some combination of:

1> Not All Knowing

2> Not All Powerful

3> Not Opinionated

relative to the entity whose free will is being questioned. The ant in the maze doesn't have free will because the operator of the maze dictates their every action.

The man on the street does have free will because there are no gods or scientists looking at his every move and altering his landscape at whim to coerce him into action.

If it does't care then why is it granting him powers? If it's powerless to do anything, then how is it granting spells? Makes no sense.


Nature is ambivalent. You can draw power from it, but it doesn't care. You can make a hydroelectric plant, and draw power from Nature, and Nature won't care. You can leave that potential energy difference in big piles - and Nature still won't care.

The Power of Good may be able to allow you to withstand the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune - but you can stare at a rock all day and the force Good has on that rock is exactly zero. Without a moral agent involved, there is no Good, and it is thusly powerless.

This isn't a complicated concept. If you want to play under Fatalism - go ahead. I'd rather strangle myself with my bed sheet.

-Username17
The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Should deities just go away in the core rules?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082592277[/unixtime]]Free Will doesn't mean anything unless the gods are some combination of:

1> Not All Knowing

2> Not All Powerful

3> Not Opinionated

relative to the entity whose free will is being questioned. The ant in the maze doesn't have free will because the operator of the maze dictates their every action.

The man on the street does have free will because there are no gods or scientists looking at his every move and altering his landscape at whim to coerce him into action.


OK, we've gone from godless clerics to free will. :rolleyes:
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