Does a maximized spell require a level check?

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User3
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Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by User3 »

A spell like Dispel Magic, its effect is a d20 + your level, and if that result is higher than the caster level of the target spell or effect, it is dispelled.

Maximizing makes any rolls during the spell come out as a max result.

Does that mean that any spell that has a level check as part of it effect mean that you automatically get 20s?
Username17
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by Username17 »

Maximize doesn't affect "opposed rolls", "such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic".

Now, it doesn't affect Dispel Magic by name. But Dispel Magic doesn't actually make an opposed roll - it makes a roll with a set DC which isn't the same thing at all.

Presumably it doesn't affect any roll you make with a DC - such as the Craft check on a Fabricate or Minor Creation. I'm aware that that is not what it says - but that seems to be what it means.

By including the dispel check under "opposed rolls" they are showing a basic literacy problem. The dispel check is not an opposed roll, so it means that either they don't really mean for it to affect dispel checks or they don't really mean "opposed rolls".

Since one interpretation makes weird things happen, and the other just leaves Maximize Spell as 5 pounds of crap - I'm suspecting that most people are going to choose the interpretation where Maximize Spell sucks.

For some reason, most people seem comfortable with the idea of things sucking too hard, and are made uncomfortable by the prospect of obscure combos making things awesome.

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MrWaeseL
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by MrWaeseL »

Tangent on this topic, what metamagic feats are worth taking? Heighten can be useful, and delay in combination with maximised time stop, but not much else...
Username17
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by Username17 »

Heighten is crap, unless you have one of those weird setups where you can apply metamagic to spells for free. Then it is awesome. In general, if you have a higher level slot to burn, you could just cast a better version of whatever spell it is.

Which is the fundamental problem with all metamagics. The rules for spell research are that you could learn a new version of a spell at a higher level which lasts longer and has a higher save DC and has a longer range and has a higher level cap.

Meanwhile, you could spend a feat to use a higher level slot to increase only one of those aspects of the spell.

Metamagic feats are, in general, only worthwhile if they allow you to change a variable that your DM would refuse to allow you to change on a spell - such as Extend or Persistent. But that, of course, is entirely variable. The Magic Weapon -> Greater Magic Weapon paradigm indicates that I can go from Divine Power to Greater Divine Power with a 7th level slot and make it last all day and grant level scaling benefits to Strength. Your DM probably wouldn't allow that - so making it persistent as an 8th level spell is probably still worth considering.

Metamagic is purposefully underpowered under the assumption that you are going to figure out some way to abuse it. This means that for any kind of "normal" use, it just sucks. All of it. Without exception.

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Frank, have you seen any good uses for 3.5 empower? Just curious.
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by Username17 »

It still works on Awaken.

:shudder:

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User3
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by User3 »

Seems people on the WotC Min/Max board absolutely love metamagic feats. Why? I don't know - as I think they are weak as well. Look at this crazy thread where everyone is going nuts over the efficacy of the Chain Spell feat (+3 to spell level) ... located ... here ...

This feat is horrible! Yet a good number of the min/max power players over there love it. Some people tried to squelch the enthusiasm by showing its pitfalls, but they got drowned out.

Am I crazy, or does Chain Spell actually have value ... at +3 to spell level?

Greets,
Rashid
RandomCasualty
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by RandomCasualty »

IMO the only metamagic effects that should exist are empower and maximize.

Heighten spell should be something you can do normall ywhen you prepare a spell in a higher level spell slot, charging people a feat to do that is stupid.

Extend and persistent shouldn't exist at all. Doubling the duration usually isn't worth crap so there's no need for it, and persistent is just altogether a broken concept. 1 round/level personal spells are almost never OK to make permanent, because part of the cost of those spells is taking the action to cast them.

Widen spell and similar things that extend the range and other weak stuff, should just be general feats. I honestly don't see any reason to charge someone for doing this. The effect isn't good enough to warrant an extra slot cost anyway, so you might as well just let people use these feats whenever they want.
The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1082569671[/unixtime]]It still works on Awaken.

:shudder:

-Username17


Anything that includes "Awaken" is just so wrong.

If you want to blow a feat and a 7th level spell so that you can maybe be slightly better at buffing your party and taking out low-level creatures that won't even earn you XP, then yeah, it's a cool feat.
MrWaeseL
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by MrWaeseL »

Extending (yep, pun intended :)) this conversation, what about Improved Metamagic from the Epic Level Handbook? Do you think that reducing the level of a metamagiced spell by 1 is viable for an epic feat.
Personally, I'd rather have Improved Spell Capacity.
RandomCasualty
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by RandomCasualty »

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1082623534[/unixtime]]Extending (yep, pun intended :)) this conversation, what about Improved Metamagic from the Epic Level Handbook? Do you think that reducing the level of a metamagiced spell by 1 is viable for an epic feat.
Personally, I'd rather have Improved Spell Capacity.


Well, improved metamagic certainly has its uses, because you get more lower level slots than you do high level slots with improved spell capacity, so improved metamagic could be worth it if you like to metamagic your spells.
Username17
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Re: Does a maximized spell require a level check?

Post by Username17 »

Improved Metamagic is unbalanced on the face of it, provided that you believe that Metamagic Feats are balanced to begin with. While they aren't, they are kind of balanced with each other.

Improved Metamagic:

* Doesn't reduce the cost of Silent Spell at all.
* Reduces the cost of Empower by 50%
* Reduces the cost of Maximize by 1/3.
* Reduces the cost of Quicken by 25%.

Assuming that you are using the Spellcasting rules wherein you can freely stack metamagic 0 this make Empower and Energy Admixture no longer equivalent - which is straight up bad.

What I'd rather see is a feat that allowed you to stack on 12 levels of Metamagic per day for free - with a maximum of 4 levels per spell. Obviously, these metamagics would be added spontaneously and take no extra time.

But the epic system has problems deeper than that - I've tried to run it. The fact of the matter is that it can't decide whether it is trying to simulate skilled normal people or gods - and some of the characters end up as skilled normals and some of the characters end up as gods. Something as simply unbalanced as Improved Metamagic is lost in that crowd.

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