What is the wish economy?

[Aktariel]

And how does it work?

And lastly, where can I find it?

[technomancer]

It's in the Dungeonomicon (top of this very forum), under the header of "Wish and the Economy"

The short version is this: Wish means that you can get pretty much anything you want that costs less than 15,000 GP for free (or huge piles of gold, depending on where you are in the leveling scheme), but anything that costs more than 15,000 GP shouldn't really be able to be bought with mundane money. Planar Currencies, like souls and whatnot would need to be used instead, as you can't get that stuff simply by using Planar Binding (or similar magics) on outsiders that have Wish as a spell-like ability (which doesn't have any component costs, such as XP).

So, at high levels, you are basically assumed to just have anything that costs less than 15,000 gp, and you have to go on adventures to get stuff that costs more than 15,000 gp.

[Endovior]

This means that the older Dragons really CAN sleep on gigantic piles of gold... and it doesn't even matter, because gold's pretty much worthless at that level.

[bitnine]

1175362101[/unixtime]]This means that the older Dragons really CAN sleep on gigantic piles of gold... and it doesn't even matter, because gold's pretty much worthless at that level.

Beyond the splitting of currency providing a thematic divorce, it also serves as a padding against logistical quagmires that surround the ramifications of wealth generation schemes instead of ignoring them or arbitrarily relying on making them not happen for contrived reasons.

[RandomCasualty]

The only thing I never understood about the wish economy is why you can't buy stuff with money. I mean, creating magic items (without wish) requires just using the feat and burning some cash, so theoretically wizards can still make a profit crafting items and selling things that you can't wish for.

Why couldn't you commission a wizard to create items for you? Or simply wish for gold and then use item crafting to turn that gold into magic items?

[Cielingcat]

Because the Wizard has to spend actual experience points to make those items.

[Chuckles]

What has confused me, has been that you can buy 9th level scrolls, but items that a 3rd level character can produce (mantle of energy resistance) are illegal. NPC's have to have some means of gaining experience, and there are significantly more of them at 3rd level then 17th, so shouldn't the economy be based more on level then gp?

Also where did the 15,000 gp limit come on wishes?

[RandomCasualty]

1175375402[/unixtime]]Because the Wizard has to spend actual experience points to make those items.

Well so what? I mean nothing is stopping a PC wizard from burning XP and creating all that stuff.

As stated before, in 3.5, item crafting isn't even that big of a disadvantage, because as soon as you go a level behind, you start gaining XP faster so you can catch up.

Under the wish economy wouldn't you effectively have infinite gear? (assuming you were willing to burn a lot of XP)

Also, it seems that item crafting would still be a big source of income for wizards who don't yet have access to planar binding or any of the other spells that facilitate the wish economy. I mean having infinite gold is kinda nice for a 15th level wizard, but not everyone is quite that good. Other people have to make their money the hard way.

[User3]

Low level guys wouldn't spend their time making stuff above the 15,000 gp limit because high level adventurers would just come and take it. The only way to be safe from them is to produce stuff they don't care about, which means staying under 15,000 gp.

[NineInchNall]

And, of course, Artificers completely break the wish economy due to their Retain Essence ability.

[technomancer]

Chuckles: The 15,000 GP limit comes from the wish spell itself. It can just make any magical item of 15,000 GP or less.

Also, the reason why you couldn't just comission a wizard to make something worth more than 15,000 GP and pay them in piles of cash is because piles of cash are worthless to higher level characters who are interacting with the Wish economy.

People making magic items worth more than 15,000 GP are going to want more than cash. Planar currencies, like Souls and the like, are going to get you that magic item, as would doing the wizard a favor (re: adventure).

[Draco_Argentum]

1175374989[/unixtime]]
Why couldn't you commission a wizard to create items for you? Or simply wish for gold and then use item crafting to turn that gold into magic items?

Why would a wizard agree to to anything more difficult that wishing for gold if all you do is pay him gold? If he really wanted gold he can get it for free. Thats a lot easier than making powerful items then swapping them for gold.

[RandomCasualty]

1175390668[/unixtime]]
Why would a wizard agree to to anything more difficult that wishing for gold if all you do is pay him gold? If he really wanted gold he can get it for free. Thats a lot easier than making powerful items then swapping them for gold.

Well you've got to be what? 15th level before you can get infinite wishes?

I'd figure there would be a point where you couldn't yet wish for stuff but you could still craft some rather awesome gear.

Also, is there any controls to PC wizards just going crazy with item crafting under the wish economy? Because it really doesn't seem like there is.

[Cielingcat]

9th level, when you get Planar Binding.

The control is that it costs them xp. This is the same control as in the normal economy, since infinite gold through Wishes is available at level 9 by the Core rules no matter what.

[RandomCasualty]

1175395799[/unixtime]]9th level, when you get Planar Binding.

Lesser planar binding you mean?

What outsider are you calling with 6 HD or less that can cast wish?

[Cielingcat]

Oh, right, Lesser is 5th level and normal is 6th. Make that 11th level then.

[Aktariel]

What do you do in a high level adventure where wish is unavailable?

[As in, mine.]

Is gold still valuable across the 15k gp limit?

Of course, since there are very few magic items anyway, I don't suppose it matters much.

What would you do with gold in a high level adventure with little or no magic items and where wish is unavailable? And no Primary Casters exist?

Although the point about weight is well taken. The answer: after platinum pieces, we switch to... gems?

[Cielingcat]

Without magic items, wealth loses its power. If you can't trade a soul for anything worth the trouble of getting that soul, then the soul isn't worth anything.

Once you get powerful, you should simply go around conquering things. Land is worth more than gold, and you don't have to take it with you.

[Aktariel]

Very true.

And castles. Pay lots of peasants small amounts of gold and have them build you a castle, and the "gold is valueless" problem disappears - you're doling out large numbers of small amounts.

Become a baron! Become a duke! Hell, conquer as much as you can and call yourself a king.

[User3]

1175401332[/unixtime]]Very true.

And castles. Pay lots of peasants small amounts of gold and have them build you a castle, and the "gold is valueless" problem disappears - you're doling out large numbers of small amounts.

Become a baron! Become a duke! Hell, conquer as much as you can and call yourself a king.

You're thinking too small. Emperor. Or perhaps Universal Dictator. Really, why settle for any title other than Master - it only matters that everyone calls you that.

[Catharz]

1175403826[/unixtime]]

1175401332[/unixtime]]Very true.

And castles. Pay lots of peasants small amounts of gold and have them build you a castle, and the "gold is valueless" problem disappears - you're doling out large numbers of small amounts.

Become a baron! Become a duke! Hell, conquer as much as you can and call yourself a king.

You're thinking too small. Emperor. Or perhaps Universal Dictator. Really, why settle for any title other than Master - it only matters that everyone calls you that.

Ya, basically you can be the mother fucking Gepetto.

[User3]

Man, Fables is so good.

[Brobdingnagian]

Actually, according to the Wealth by Level guidelines in the DMG (which is dumb, but there nonetheless)...

The Wish economy becomes available at 5th level. Since, a Candle of Invocation costs 8,400 gp and 5th level characters should (each) have 9,000 gp... A party of four could each spend under 25% their individual wealth to purchase the Candle, and boom infinite wishes. That's assuming the control given by the Gate that the Candle of Invocation creates is using the creator's caster level (17) as the HD basis (allowing control of a single non-unique creature of up to 34 HD, a genie/efreet has 10) instead of the user's HD (in this case, 5, which could only control up to 10 HD). Oh, wait, that's a non-issue.

So... yeah. 5th level, WbL guidelines (still dumb), and Wish economy. Happy birthday.

[Catharz]

The Candle of Invocation...is there anything it can't do?

As far as I can tell it's the absolute most broken item in the game, worse than any of the core artifacts.

In the wish economy it might be balanced at 15,001 gp, but you'd be better off just banning it along with the Thought Bottle.

Once you've gotten rid of that, there are still a few limited-use items which you're probably better off banning in the wish economy. Incense of Meditation is the only one I can think of right now (do you really want every high-level caster to have every spell Maximized all the time?).

[Username17]

Item creation is funny stuff. You don't get any more for making more powerful items. That is, there's a market for +1 swords and there's a market for +4 swords. And your take-home on making +4 swords is sixteen times what it is on a +1 sword. But +4 Swords also take sixteen times as long to make.

So the "per hour" wage on making +4 swords is no better than it is on making +1 Swords. So there's really no reason at all for anyone to ever make a +4 sword for gold. They can break their time up and make sixteen lesser swords if they really don't have a better money engine (such as fabricate or flesh to salt).

Even if a Wizard decided that he wanted gold in piles, there's still no compelling reason for him to make a powerful magic item. He only builds an item past the wish threshold if he personally wants it to exist or if he can trade it for an individual object that he can't acquire with gold (such as a planar pearl, a valuable soul, or the love of a woman).

-Username17