Spell Resistance Makes Wizards Useless?

[Endovior]

Despite multiple attempts to convince them otherwise, the group I'm currently in still fervently believes that Core is balanced. Indeed, I was just recently informed that 'Fighters are actually the most powerful class'. The core of their assumption? They seem to think that Spell Resistance makes Wizards (all casters, actually) useless anywhere beyond tenth level or so, at which point Fighters theoretically take over the game, with all their feats and stuff.

Can I get some solid proof to disabuse them of this notion?

[josephbt]

Take only SoD spells, no utility, no buff. Bombard everything with SoDs. Laugh.
Take each and every spell with SR: No.
Abuse Planar binding.
Abuse Gate.
Abuse Shapeshift.
Ditto for Polymorph.

[erik]

Not only are wizards who care about spell resistance going to easily be able to overwhelm the SR of any CR appropriate critter, but many effective wizard spells already ignore spell resistance from the get-go.

The conjuration spells especially so: Grease, Glitter Dust, Solid Fog, Orb spells, etc.


A golem with its infinte spell resistance will kick most figher's asses in melee, while a wizard just laughs and toys with the poor bastard.

Really though, it sounds like these people are so far around the bend that I don't think there's anything that could change their mind, and I wouldn't even bother trying with discussion. If you play with them, simply use a single-classed wizard and win the encounters that tear the fighters to shreds.

[erik]

Well, I tried editing my post to add Web and remove Orb spells, since they aren't in the PHB, but my lappy is 2 states away, and I'm on a 10 year old computer I used in college, and fvck if it won't let me edit.

[Cielingcat]

Golems can't think, and die to Ventriloquism+Invisibility+Acid Fog every time. Well, unless your party members screw it up for you. Sometimes an Image is needed, but those are low level spells.

[MrWaeseL]

Show them the similarity between SR and AC.

Or tell them that fighters suck because all monsters have an Armor Class

[Username17]

OK... rather than just bypassing spell resistance, let's just do spell resistance. Get Spell Penetration. Then line up your enemies:

CR 10
Animated Object, Collosal (No SR, 100%)
Bebilith (No SR, 100%)
Couatl (No SR, 100%)
Formian Mymarch (SR 25, 40%)
Fire Giant (No SR, 100%)
Clay Golem (Infinite SR, 0%)
Hydra (No SR, 100%)
Guardian Naga (No SR, 100%)
Gargantuan Scorpion (No SR, 100%)
Rakshasa (SR 27, 30%)
Gray Slaad (No SR, 100%)
Noble Salamander (No SR, 100%)
Adult White Dragon (SR 18, 75%)
Young Red Dragon (No SR, 100%)

So seriously, if you just cast SR spells at CR 10 opponents as a 10th level character at random, you are only going to have your spells fail only 18.2% of the time. If you factor in that yu aren't a god damned idiot and have no intention of dropping SR spells on Clay Golems, you are looking at having your spells fail only 11.9% of the time. Oh noes!

But right, we're talking after 10th level. Let's consider:

CR 15
Marut (SR 25, 65%)
Vampire Lord (No SR, 100%)
Adult Red Dragon (SR 21, 85%)
Old White Dragon (SR 21, 85%)

Well gosh. Right out of the Monster Manual the few CR 15 Monsters that there are look like they are going to stop a magic bullet only 16.25% of the time - even less often than the CR 10 critters.

So let's continue:

CR 20
Balor (SR 28, 75%)
Pit Fiend (SR 32, 55%)
Tarrasque (SR 32, 55%)
Old Red Dragon (SR 24, 95%)
Wyrm Black Dragon (SR 26, 85%)

Holy shiznit. At CR 20, everything has SR. And if you just dump spells on things, your spells will totally get stopped fully 27% of the time.

Now it is important to note that a 20th level Wizard can shapechange into a variety of monsters that have Supernatural attacks that don't allow SR at all. Or that there are just plain spells you can throw that don't allow SR. But really, you don't need to make that argument. At no level is SR going to stop you from doing anything even a third of the time.

Just running up and using your spells exactly as intended and watching them bounce off enemy SR from time to time - it's not even a big deal.

-Username17

[Brobdingnagian]

You could show him pg. 38 and pgs. 90-91. You know, the pages that say "Fighters don't get nice things".

[Judging__Eagle]

Wait, do these guys use Fireball as anything other than long-range artillery?

Or, do they prefer Magic Missile over Minor Image?

That could tell you everything.

[bitnine]

Yup, the group seems pretty much double wrong there. Wizards choose to use SoDs and spells subject to SR because(/when) they work. If for some reason they didn't, they wouldn't choose to. They're wizards - they've got plenty of options (core and otherwise) for deploying their spell-borne resources using methods that do not include saves or SR as appropriate.

[Endovior]

I'm well aware of the many ways to get around spell resistance (although they trivialize such, I will be demonstrating), I was specifically looking for some decent number crunching, like what Frank provided. Thanks, Frank!

[Brobdingnagian]

Frank for the win again!

...

Do the rest of us actually do anything around here?