Comparing a lvl 12 Fighter vs a RoW Fighter

[Judging__Eagle]

Dalmar Armyslayer
Human (Core) Fighter 12
Medium Humanoid - HD 12d10 (66)+ 84 = (150 HP)
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Speed: 30 ft. Fly 30 (3éday, 5 minutes per use)
Initiative: +8

Armour Class: 34 (10 + 8 Dex, 2 Vest of Natural Armour +2, 8 (Crucian Form) Headband of Alter Self, 2 Ring of Protection +2, 4 +1 Moderate Fortification Gray Armour, )
Damage Reduction:
Damage Reduction:


Attack: Melee +21 (Warchain 2d6+ 1d6 (fire) + 1d6 (electricity) +7) [Reaches 10-30 feet]
or
Attack: Melee +21 (Armour Spikes 2d6+ 1d6 (fire) +5) [Reaches Grapple-10 feet]

Attack of Opportunity: Melee +25 (Warchain 2d6+ 1d6 (fire) + 1d6 (electricity) +7) [Reaches 10-30 feet]
Attack of Opportunity: Melee +25 (Armour Spikes 2d6+ 1d6 (fire) +5) [Reaches Grapple-10 feet]
Full Attack: +21/+16/+11 (Warchain 2d6+ 1d6 (fire) + 1d6 (electricity) +7) [Reaches 10-30 feet]

Saves: Fort +18 Reflex +15 Will +11


Abilities: S 17 D 26 C 24 I 20 W 19 Ch 15
Skills:
Feats:
Notable Items:
Periapt of Health +2; Vest of Natural Armour +1, Ring of Protection +1, +1 Extending Flaming Shock Adamantine Warchain, +1 Flaming Adamantine Armour Spikes, Cloak of Resistance +3; Winged Boots, +1 Moderate Fortification Silk Steel Armour; Headband of Alter Self; Belt of the Giant [Enlarge Person at will]
[/i]



Breakdown of abilities:

Notes:

Abilities (Elite Array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)
Str 10 (base) +5 (Inherent) +2 (Item) +2 (size)= 19 (+4)
Dex 15 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +4 (Item) +2 (levels 4 & 8)= 26 (+8)
Con 14 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +4 (Item) +1 (level 12) = 24 (+7)
Int 13 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +2 (Item)= 20(+5)
Wis 12 (Base) +5 (Inherent)+2 (Item) = 19(+4)
Cha 8 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +2 (Item) = 15 (+2)

Init +8
BAB +12, Grap +15
Fort +18 (8 base +7 con +3 resistance)
Ref +15 (4 base +8 dex +3 resistance)
Will +11 (4 base +4 wis +3 resistance)

Levels/Feats:

1. 
   
2. Fighter [3]Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse
   
3. Fighter [1]Combat Expertise
   
4. Fighter [1]Opportunistic Tactician [Take a 5' step after making an AoO]
   
5. Fighter [1]Spring Attack
   
6. Fighter []
   
7. Fighter [2]Whirlwind, Deft Opportunist [+4 to hit on AoOs]
   
8. Fighter []
   
9. Fighter [1]Canny Opportunist [Draw a Weapon, Ready / Loosen a Shield, or Attempts a Feint in Combat provokes an AoO]
   
10. Fighter [1]Exploit Adjustment [5' steps cause AoOs]
    
11. Fighter [1]Stand Still [Give up damage on an AoO; target must make a Ref Save of 10 + Damage done or they cannot move any more this round]
    
12. Fighter []
    
13. Fighter [2]Robilar's Gambit, Hold the line [AoOs on charging people]
    

Tactics:
By Round
1. Cast Enlarge Person with the Belt of the Giant. Move towards enemies, attack any viable target within 30 feet while moving or double move.
1a. Make Attacks of Opportunity on any enemies within 30 feet that do any of the following actions that normally wouldn't provoke an AoO:
He can make up to 9 (nine) attacks of opportunity per round.
-Charge
-Draw a weapon
-Ready/Loosen a sheild
-Attempt to Feint in combat
-Take a 5' step
1b. After making an AoO, he can take a 5' foot step [Note: either you only get 1 foot step a round, or he can take up to 9 or 10]
1c. Damage can be forgone and instead the target attacked by the AoO has to make a reflex save of 10 + Damage that has been forgone or they cannot further move that round.

2. Take a 5 foot step; perform a Whirlwind Attack; attacking everyone within 30 feet.

3. Remain in place to hold back any new attackers, repeat step 1a to 2 or start again at step 1 if there are no attackers nearby.

Note: you may fly with a speed of 30 feet 3 times per day for up to 5 minutes each use.

Basically; rush the enemy; AoO anyone who gets in close, use Stand Still on things that you want to keep back; every time that they move you can force them to make a DC 29 Reflex (10 + 4d6 + 7) Save or act as if all of their move actions have been used up for the round.


I`ll write up a similar 12th lvl fighter using RoW material exclusively.

Here I only used the Wish Economy (+5 to all stats, items under 15,000 gp are free).

Anyway, what`s the idea on this build?

I presented a similar build on the char-op boards, but I had combat brute and shock trooper, both feats that don`t really help with someone who is an AoO machine.


Versus Mooks:

Knock them down or Whirlwind to kill them

Versus Casters:

You kidding me? Whirlwind or AoOs should keep them back, casting defensively could be a pain.

Versus Big Brutes:

They have to make a DC 29 reflex save via stand still, hopefully keeping them at bay for either a full-attack or other party members to deal with.






-----------------------



Marrak Blackchains, Fiendslayer
Human (Races of War) Fighter 12
Medium Humanoid - HD 12d10 (66)+ 84 + 12 = (162 HP) [Note: Dont die until you reach -20]
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Speed: 30 ft. Fly 30 (9/day, 5 minutes per use)
Initiative: +8

Armour Class: 41 Touch Flatfooted

Damage Reduction:17/Adamantine (12), - (5)
Spell Resistance: 17 (5 + Caster lvl, Mage Slayer)


Attack: Melee +21 ('large' Warchain 2d6+ 9 ) [Reaches 10-35 feet]
or
Attack: Melee +21 (Armour Spikes 2d6+ 1d6 (fire)+ 5) [Reaches Grapple-15 feet]
or
Attack: Ranged +21 ('large' Str 18 Comp Longbow 2d6+ 6) []

Full Attack: +21/+19/+19 (Warchain 2d6+ 9) [Reaches 10-30 feet]


Saves: Fort +Reflex +Will +


Abilities: S 17 D 26 C 24 I 20 W 19 Ch 15
Skills:Note: Unlike the other fighter who gets at most 5 skills maxed (and those will probably be: Climb, Jump, Swim, Intimidate and Ride, not exacty useful)

Skills/lvl 6 + int mod + human mod = 12/lvl = 12 skills at 15 ranks

Balance (Dex), 15 + 8 - 4 + 3 = 22
Bluff (Cha),
Climb (Str),
Craft (Int), 15
Diplomacy (Cha), 15
Escape Artist (Dex), -
Handle Animal (Cha),
Intimidate (Cha), 15
Jump (Str),
Knowledge (all skills individually) (Int), All 10 +8 (30 pts among 10 skills)
Listen (Wis), 15
Move Silently (Dex), 15
Profession (Wis),
Ride (Dex),
Sense Motive (Wis), 15
Spot (Wis), 15
Survival (Wis), 15
Swim (Str), -
Tumble (Dex) 15
Use Rope (Dex)

Feats:See build; there are 11 feats total
Notable Items:
Periapt of Health +4; Vest of Natural Armour +2, Ring of Protection +1, Cloak of Resistance +3; Winged Boots (3 pairs), +1 Moderate Fortification Gray Armour, +1 Animated Heavy Shield; various +2 stat ioun stones (str, cha, wis, int). Custom items: Headband of Alter Self; Belt of the Giant [Enlarge Person at will]; Stone of Silence.

Melee:
+1 Extending Adamantine Warchain
+1 Extending Adamantine Kusari-Gama (off hand)
+1 Flaming Adamantine Armour Spikes (on Adamantine Breastplate, off knee)

+1 Returning Adamantine (3)/Cold Iron (3)/Silver (3)/Stone (3)/Wood (3) Darts
aka "The Council of Seers"(15 darts total)
[Each one is a minor intelligent item with 10 ranks in a knowledge skill; all 10 skills are covered.
As well as one dart each with +10 in Appraise, Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy and in Spellcraft]

Ranged:
+1 Holy Str 18 Comp Longbow, [18,000 gp]
+1 Flaming arrows (50)
+1 Constructbane Adamantine arrows (40),
+1 Undeadbane arrows (40),
+1 Outsiderbane (Lawful) silver arrows (40),
+1 Outsiderbane (Chaotic) cold iron arrows (40)




Breakdown of abilities:

Notes:

Abilities (Elite Array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)
Str 10 (base) +5 (Inherent) +2 (Item) +2 (size)= 19 (+4)
Dex 15 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +4 (Item) +2 (levels 4 & 8)= 26 (+8)
Con 14 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +4 (Item) +1 (level 12) = 24 (+7)
Int 13 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +2 (Item)= 20(+5)
Wis 12 (Base) +5 (Inherent)+2 (Item) = 19(+4)
Cha 8 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +2 (Item) = 15 (+2)

Init +8
BAB +12, Grap +15
Fort +21 (8 base +7 con +3 resistance +3 Great Fort)
Ref +22 (8 base +8 dex +3 resistance +3 Lighting Ref) [Evasion, Make a Balance check (+22 ) to save]
Will +18 (8 base +4 wis +3 resistance +3 Iron Will)

Levels/Feats:

1. 
   
2. Fighter Weapons Training, Combat Focus [2]Weapon Finesse,
   
3. Fighter [1]
   
4. Fighter Problem Solver, Pack Mule[1]
   
5. Fighter [1]
   
6. Fighter Logistics Mastery, Active Assault[]
   
7. Fighter [2]
   
8. Fighter Forge Lore, Improved Delay[]
   
9. Fighter [1]
   
10. Fighter Foil Action[1]
    
11. Fighter [1]
    
12. Fighter Lunging Attacks[]
    
13. Fighter [2]
    

[12]
[]



Danger Sense (make a sense motive check on anyhting within 60', you know if they want to hurt you, even if you don't see them)
Whirlwind (as a full round: make a move action and attack anyone you can reach use only one attack roll; +3 on balance checks, anyone who moves into your threatened area after you whirlwind provokes and AoO)
Blitz, (+12 damage, only -2 to bonus attacks, intimidate for free)

Weapon Finesse (Dex to hit & damage, dex for tripping, gain edge if you have more dex)
Hordebreaker, (3 AoOs, stock, +3 TWF, +8 Dex = 14 AoOs/Round)

Great Fortitude, (die at -20 HP, +1 hp/HD, DR 5/-)
Iron Will (Slippery Mind, Dazed instead of Stunned, Pain and Fear have no effect)
Lighting Reflexes (Evasion, Balance check instead of reflex save, +3 Init)

Combat School (+2 hit, +2 damage, DC 18 Fort or be dazed one round; TAKE 10 on attacks)
Two Weapon Fighting (+2 Shield Bonus, double attacks,

Point Blank Shot (+3 to hit within 30 feet, +BaB to ranged damage, AoOs with a ranged weapon but not on movement)
Sniper (all 30 feet things upgrade to 60'; shoot into mele fine, ignore partial cover, need to be found when ranged attacking)

XXXMage Slayer, [Subbed in with Problem Solver]
XXXElusive Target,


Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and Martial Weapons. Fighters are proficient with Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor and with Shields and Great Shields.

Weapons Training (Ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and using a new weapon is easy and fun. By practicing with a weapon he is not proficient with for a day, a Fighter may permanently gain proficiency with that weapon by succeeding at an Intelligence check DC 10 (you may not take 10 on this check).

Combat Focus (Ex): A Fighter is at his best when the chips are down and everything is going to Baator in a handbasket. When the world is on fire, a Fighter keeps his head better than anyone. If the Fighter is in a situation that is stressful and/or dangerous enough that he would normally be unable to "take 10" on skill checks, he may spend a Swift Action to gain Combat Focus. A Fighter may end his Combat Focus at any time to reroll any die roll he makes, and if not used it ends on its own after a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus.

Problem Solver (Ex): A Fighter of 3rd level can draw upon his intense and diverse training to respond to almost any situation. As a Swift action, he may choose any [Combat] feat he meets the prerequisites for and use it for a number of rounds equal to his base attack bonus. This ability may be used once per hour.

Pack Mule (Ex): Fighters are used to long journeys with a heavy pack and the use of a wide variety of weaponry and equipment. A 3rd level Fighter suffers no penalties for carrying a medium load, and may retrieve stored items from his person without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Logistics Mastery (Ex): Fighters are excellent and efficient logisticians. When a Fighter reaches 5th level, he gains a bonus to his Command Rating equal to one third his Fighter Level.

Active Assault (Ex): A 5th level Fighter can flawlessly place himself where he is most needed in combat. He may take a 5 foot step as an immediate action. This is in addition to any other movement he takes during his turn, even another 5 foot step.

Forge Lore: A 7th level Fighter can produce magical weapons and equipment as if he had a Caster Level equal to his ranks in Craft.

Improved Delay (Ex): A Fighter of 7th level may delay his action in one round without compromising his Initiative in the next round. In addition, a Fighter may interrupt another action with his delayed action like it was a readied action (though he does not have to announce his intentions before hand).

Foil Action (Ex): A 9th level Fighter may attempt to monkeywrench any action an opponent is taking. The Fighter may throw sand into a beholder's eye, bat aside a key spell component, or strike a weapon hand with a thrown object, but the result is the same: the opponent's action is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended. A Fighter must be within 30 feet of his opponent to use this ability, and must hit with a touch attack or ranged touch attack. Using Foil Action is an Immediate action. A Fighter may not wait until an action is partially completed before deciding to attempt to foil the action, but must instead attempt to foil an action as it is declared. Note that this means that a Fighter may not foil a Full Attack (because it is not declared until after it has already begun), nor may he foil a move or charge action that began out of range.
At 17th level, Foil Action may be used at up to 60 feet.

Lunging Attacks (Ex): The battlefield is an extremely dangerous place, and 11th level Fighters are expected to hold off Elder Elementals, Hezrous, and Hamatulas. Fighters of this level may add 5 feet to the reach of any of their weapons.


AC breakdown:


10
8 (base 3 + 1/2 BaB) Dex
2 Vest of Natural Armour +2 (Enhancement Natural Armour)
8 (Crucian Form) Headband of Alter Self (Racial Natural Armour)
2 Ring of Protection +2 (Defletction)
8 +1 Moderate Fortification Silk Steel Armour (Armour) (+2 on hide checks, negate the 1st -10 on move silently checks for moving, take 10 less damage when falling on flat ground)
4 +3 Buckler (Sheild) (no penalty, 13+ ranks in balance)

=52 Touch 30 FlatFooted 34

Feats:

Tactics:
By Round

Not done yet.


---------

I'm not done the RoW fighter yet, but here's a preview of what I'm working with.

[User3]

What exactly is the point of this comparison? The RoW fighter not only has extra special abilities beyond "omg feats", but also gets much much better feats in general.

I guess once we have both fighters we can compare them to a series of CR 12 challenges, and see who wins 50/50 and who loses almost all the time (hint: the above fighter loses almost all the time).

Here's a few potential challenges to get us started:
Adult Brass Dragon
11-headed Cryohydra
12th level Wizard (generalist)
Kolyarut
Colossal Monstrous Scorpion
Leonal
Elder Black Pudding
a Giant Trap of some kind

Those are all CR 12. If anyone wants to add to the list with a good group of lower CR monsters that adds up to 12 (eg, two CR 10s or four CR 8s), please do so. There are some gaps in the list.

[Leress]

Unfortunately most trap peter out around CR 8.

another challenge could be 4 T-Rexes (pretty straight forward, no special abilities.)

[User3]

A bunch of archer-monsters would make a nice group too.

Also, going by the "Forcecage + SM VII is two CR 8 traps and therefore a CR 10 trap" logic, we should be able to construct something that's about CR 12. For example, Forcecage + 3x SM VIIs.

[Catharz]

1173928395[/unixtime]]What exactly is the point of this comparison? The RoW fighter not only has extra special abilities beyond "omg feats", but also gets much much better feats in general.

1) Quantify the difference.

2) The RoW fighter doesn't have access to all of the AoO crazyness which a standard fighter can get. Karmic stridestepping is a very effective tactic against the right foes.

[Judging__Eagle]

Nah. Karmic sidestepping is old-hat Cathaz.

You have to go for Opportunistic Tactician, more 5 foot steps; I think.

I'm writing up the RoW fighter that will be compared to him.

I'm thinking.... A row whirlwind, combat school, mage-hunter with lighting ref, iron will and great fort; tack on the exact same weapons and gear (and have 30 foot reach, but be large size) and very different armour (in this case, adamantine breastplate for the DR/adamantine).

---


Also, the tactical opportunist tactic is actually not bad vs flyers that get close to you.

You can use Stand Still on them more than once if they're dive bombers; and if you force them to lose their movement they will probably fall unless they they're a beholder or incorporeal.

Adult Brass Dragon
Well, you can't actually use a dragon unless the PCs know they'll be fighting one. Also, the Adult Brass Dragon is a CR 12

A surprise Dragon would probably be a: A CR 8 Juvenile:

Juvenile Size M 13d12+26 (110)
S 17 D 10 C 15 I 12 W 13 Ch 12
BaB/Grapp: +13/+16
Attack: +16/+11 (1d8+3 1 Bite, 1d6+1 2 Claw, 1d4+1 2 Wing)
Saves: F +10 R +8 W +9
Breath: 4d6 (18) —

This fighter can also fly and it's threat range is enough to keep the dragon's claws from being annoying.

If they fail the DC 17 Will save vs the Cone of Sleep effect, that could be a problem. Entering a square close enough to affect the fighter with it's 30 foot breath cone should provoke an AoO, which could shut the dragon down.

The 22 Ac shouldn't be too hard to hit, and if the dragon does any of the following it will provoke an AoO: attacking/missing, moving, charging, readying an action, taking a 5 foot step.

If the fighter forgoes damage on one attack, they can simply force the Dragon to make a 10 + Damage that would have been dealt reflex save or fall (the damage is then negated) if it was flying.

The fighter can then either full attack if the dragon is still within 30 feet of the fighter; or the fighter can move to be above the dragon and if it moves at all, he will use his AoO net in order to either damage (as it moves upwards towards him) and then use Stand Still at either the last or almost last moment in order to make it fall back down again.


11-headed Cryohydra

Fire/Ice hydras don't have more than a 20 foot threat range with their breath weapons.

Again, flying and 30 foot reach will help with this.

If it ambushes, hopefully the flaming armour spikes that can sunder the heads (vs AC 21 and only 10 HP per head); but this provokes an AoO, however it has a +16 to hit vs AC 34, needing an 18 or better to hit.

Hopefully the fighter will beat the hydra's grapple mod of 25 with his own of 19 (it goes up from 15 since he's large). Hopefully with a difference of 6, the fighter could get lucky and break free, if not it can probably easily sunder the heads, thus reducing the amount of attacks suffered per round.

If the fighter does get free, it's game over for the hydra since the fighter will have enough attacks and AoOs to sunder all of the hydra's heads from 30 feet away, which the fighter can maintain thanks to his flying boots.

12th level Wizard (generalist)

Yeah, just boned.

If the fighter gets the drop on the wizzy, or can make his saves vs SoDs (Will of +11 vs DCs in the 10 + 6 (lvl 6 spells) 8 (or more, int mod) = DC 24 means a less than 50% (have to roll 13 or better, it 'can' be done, but will be dicy as all hell) chance of survival vs an SoD).

As well as avoid any ground battlefield control effects; he might get the kill a stupid or overconfident wizard.

But I'm not betting on it.

Kolyarut

If it fires it's Enervation Ray on me while it's invisible, I'm all kinds of boned that round.

After that I'll have to fly away or behind cover, and try to snipe it with a bow from more than 220 feet away (-2 on ranged attack rolls with a comp longbow, plus an other -1 to -4 from negative levels).

I could eventually kill it in an open field; fighting it in close is bad though. Seriously, why does this thing have a slam attack and a sword if it can use vampiric touch and enervation at will?

Definate Loss

Colossal Monstrous Scorpion

Is it dumb? Yes

Can it Fly? No.

Does it have ranged attacks? No

Can it reach 30 feet away? Yes...

The DC 33 fort save from the con damage can really hurt; since it can do 1d10 Con damage on a failure.

Getting some sort of +2 Bow would probably beat this, since 5 minutes of flying is more than enough for a large +2 bow with +1 flaming arrows and a +4 str mod (2d6 + 1d6 flaming + 6 damage). Attacking 3 times for about 15 damage at +21 to hit vs AC 26 (so, missing on a 4 or less) should deal about the whole 300 damage needed in 24 os so attacks (15*20 is 300; +4 more attacks sicne at least 4 will miss). At level.... 3 I've had characters who pack about 40 arrows or bolts; so having 24 +1 flaming arrows in a Wish economy shouldn't be too hard.

I didn't really include a bow in the notable gear since the item isn't that noticable as part of it's tactics vs mobiles and frankly, it's free at lvl 12.

Probable Win, but from gear, not from character/class abilities, which is annoying, but whatever.

Leonal

Hmm, hope to parlay is my first bet actually.

It's Hold monster, Fireball and Detect Thoughts at will abilities make it formidable. However it can't fly, but it can disable me if I'm 60 feet or futher out.

Parleying will probably work since it can detect thoughts and is Always NG.

Tie? It could kill me, but we probably wouldn't fight. I tend to hav my DMs tell me to shift my characters alignments to NG as time passes anyway, so this might have happend over 12 levels at this point.

Elder Black Pudding

It can't fly or attack up to 30 feet away.

I can kill it straight out, however since warchains do SP or BP damage.

the ideal tactic would be to split it up into several smaller ones, then whirlwind them all sicne 10 HP will kill them at their smallest state or use my AoOs to kill them as they move about.

I'm actually really re-considering Deft Opportunist in favour of Power Attack to help up damage dealt. Since as you go up in levels, monsters ACs don't really increase, but their special abilities really do.

Almost definate win.

a Giant Trap of some kind

Force cage + 3 Summon Monster spells could be bad.

If I know that there is a hallway full of Runes, and I have no other choice than to go through it... fuck it, activate the fly boots and hope that I'm good.

Probable loss.


So

Adult Brass Dragon Prolly win
11-headed Cryohydra Prolly win
12th level Wizard (generalist) Iffy, could get lucky, prolly lose though
Kolyarut Probably lose or tie since this can also be roleplayed out.
Colossal Monstrous Scorpion Probable... tie, the poison could get me it it gets the drop on me at the start
Leonal Probabl Tie or loss, depending if it's it's alignment or not
Elder Black Pudding Probable win
a Giant Trap of some kind Definate loss


Definate Wins: None, really
Probable Wins: A lot 4
Probable Ties: The Scorpion, Kolyarut and the Leonal; if you had used chaotic or evil ousiders of CR 12, I'd lower these to definate losses
Probably Loss:The Wizard and Traps

A lot of these encoutners would vary on the situation.

The elder black pudding, scorpion and hydra could be tougher if they pop out of nowhere and I'm not already flying. If I can see them and start flying then I'm safer.

[User3]

Adult Brass Dragon
Well, you can't actually use a dragon unless the PCs know they'll be fighting one. Also, the Adult Brass Dragon is a CR 12

Yeah, CR 12 is the level of monster that a 12th level PC should have a 50/50 shot at beating. Obviously, all your numbers go up if you prepare, but the question is how you do vs the monster in a normal fight. Don't forget the effects of terrain (you have no ranks in spot) etc.

Also, the CR 12 dragon casts at some not totally irrelevant CL (might be 6). That's enough to get it things like Feather Fall to negate your Stand Still tricks.

Also, alignment shouldn't be an issue here. Ignore it and just look at the stats.

[Brobdingnagian]

Point being, a Dragons have the hidden (awesome ++) subtype, meaning a CR 12 Dragon is probably actually CR 16. It would be an appropriate 12th level challenge if you knew about it ahead of time and prepared for it; otherwise, it's an appropriate 16th level challenge. A CR 8 or 10 Dragon, depending on variety, would be an appropriate CR 12 challenge not knowing of it ahead of time.

[User3]

Is that even true? I'm pretty sure all the spellcasting classes would have at least decent odds against an equal-CR dragon, depending on how inherently ridiculous their personal schtick is. A rogue could UMD up some pretty effective responses as well.

I mean, martial characters may have problems against dragons, but that's kinda the issue that the RoW classes are supposed to fix.

[Judging__Eagle]

1174013336[/unixtime]]

Adult Brass Dragon
Well, you can't actually use a dragon unless the PCs know they'll be fighting one. Also, the Adult Brass Dragon is a CR 12

Yeah, CR 12 is the level of monster that a 12th level PC should have a 50/50 shot at beating. Obviously, all your numbers go up if you prepare, but the question is how you do vs the monster in a normal fight. Don't forget the effects of terrain (you have no ranks in spot) etc.

Also, the CR 12 dragon casts at some not totally irrelevant CL (might be 6). That's enough to get it things like Feather Fall to negate your Stand Still tricks.

Also, alignment shouldn't be an issue here. Ignore it and just look at the stats.

Actually, you can't say "just look at stats" and "...alignment shouldn't be an issue here. ignore it..." since you're contradicting yourself.

A creature's alignment is part of it's stats. So you can't justify seperating them.

Seriously, creautres can kill each other simply b/c one of them is lawful and the other creature can cast Chaos Hammer at will.

Plus, most lawful or good outsiders are used for one purpose mostly.

To introduce 'good' NPCs that the PCs will not want to kill b/c it would be stupid to try.

No, I'm being serious.

Of course, a good party will probably try to aid, get aid, parlay, team up or recruit powerful outsiders if they meet them randomly.

A stupid party will try to kill them for the XP and get it's ass handed to them.

Also, you can't legitmately use any 'good' outsider as an appropraite challenge.

Mostly since if you compare any two outsiders of 'similar' power, the good ones are better statted, have more and better abilities (seriously, compare the Solar and Balor or Pit Fiend, the evil guys have at best Wish/Year; the Solar has Wish/Day, plus infinite Arrows of Slaying (whatever target they hit)). I'm not making this shit up.

As for the dragon.

Dragons come in two categories:

1. Known Dragons.

Your PCs know there's a dragon. If they do some research, they know some info about it and can prepare accordingly.

Use a Dragon their CR, maybe a bit higher. Since they're prepared.


2. Surprise Dragons

Your PCs don't know there's a dragon. They had no chance to research or prep.

Use a Dragon their CR-3 or -4.

Unless you want a TPK.



Also, how many Dragons do you think would know Feather Fall?

Also, casting a spell provokes an AoO, meaning it's gonna be either cancelled or interrupted, or it's both and their forced to Stand Still again and fall.

----------

In any case, the RoW fighter I'm writing is much beefier than this AoO-whore

[Judging__Eagle]

The RoW guys isn't done, but he's bloody amazing.

He's got an AC of 52 (T 30, FF 34);

Massive attack and attack options (he can whirlwind at anything within 35 feet of a 60 foot long 'path' with two attacks that will always have an attack roll of 12 + 8 + 10 + 2 + 1; or in other words, he'll always hit an AC of 33;

Decent Damge: Each hit will deal dealing 2d6 + 8 + 12 + 2 + 1 or average 2-12+23 damage for a total average of 4-24 + 46 damage per target (so, 50-70 damage per target).

Also, anyone hit by the above attacks has to make a DC 18 Fort save or be Dazed and I get to make a free Intimidate check with a +23 modifier.

He's got 14 AoOs a round (for regular AoO stuff or Cleaving), and can take a 5 foot step before or after he can make an AoO.

He's got all 3 of the +3 saves feats (Iron Will, Great Fort, Lightng Reflexes) so his saves are sitting around F +21, R +22 or Balance +22 and Will +18; with Evasion, Slippery Mind, Change Stunned into Dazed and be immune to Pain and Fear.

I was able to toss in Point Blank Shot and Sniper and gave him 15 +1 returning intelligent (Int Wis 12, Cha 10) darts (3 of adamantine/steel/silver/stone/wood) with +10 in the knowledge skills (that's 10 skills) and +10 Appraise, +10 Sense Motive, +10 Bluff, +10 Diplomacy and +10 in spellcraft and called them "The Seer's Council".

After all, who doesn't want a gaggle of throwing darts that are act like crochety old men so much that they always come back home no matter how far you throw them?

I also tossed in a +1 Holy bow and a bunch of +1 Bane ammo (construct bane adamantine arrows, undead bane reg arrows, chaotic outsiderbane steel arrows, lawful outsiderbane silver arrows) and a whole bunch more +2 plain adamantine/silver/steel/stone/wood arrows.

I was really gonna get Mage Hunter and Elusive target as well, but I am gonna save them for Problem Solver chosen feats instead.

I might toss Hordebreaker since I've already got 6 AoOs a round and take Mage Hunter again, not sure though.
I just need to hammer out the total effects of his feats and his skills and tweak his gear.

The straight fighter I had above could probably use some more gear, I omitted ranged weapons completely since I wanted to get it done fast.

[RandomCasualty]

I dont' really see anything in the MM beating the RoW fighter unless it's grossly higher in terms of CR. I mean 17 DR and 52 AC basically means an auto-win against anything that tries physical combat.

And considering he's got good saves too, he basically beats any kind of save or die caster. About the only thing he may lose to is long range battlefield control, so maybe the 12th level wizard beats him. This assumes the battle starts in range of the wizard though. If the fighter can get in close then it's pretty much over for the wizard too.

[Cielingcat]

How'd you manage 52 AC? The Fighter gets nothing to increase his AC, and the only feat that does that is Elusive Target (and Giant Slayer if they're bigger than you), and I don't see how that can boost you that high.

[Judging__Eagle]

Actually, if you read the armour section in races of war, all people with high BaB get their Dex mod returned to them on +1 Dex to AC per +2 BaB rate.

He's level 12, so he's getting back up to +6 of his dex mod.

Normally Silk Steel Armour only allows up to +3 Dex mod.

So, I'm actually under my total dex mod to AC. Which is hilarious.

I could be wearing something that only normally allows +2 of my Dex mod to AC and still have more AC than what I do now.

I actually posted the AC breakdown in the opening post, repeated here:

10 Base
8 (base +3 Dex Mod allowed + (1/2 BaB in extra dex mod)) Dex
2 Vest of Natural Armour +2 (Enhancement Natural Armour)
8 (Crucian Form) Headband of Alter Self (Racial Natural Armour)
2 Ring of Protection +2 (Defletction)
8 +1 Moderate Fortification Silk Steel Armour (Armour) (+2 on hide checks, negate the 1st -10 on move silently checks for moving, take 10 less damage when falling on flat ground)
4 +3 Buckler (Sheild) (no penalty, 13+ ranks in balance)

=52 Touch 30 FlatFooted 34

That should be accurate, note the lack of +3 vest of natural armour and a lack of +3 ring of protection. So his AC 'could' be higher.

Actually, since he can probably max his hide and move silently checks...

This guy could also kill a wizard.

If he chooses to drop his Crucian form (via his Headband of a Thousand Faces (Alter Self at will)) he can go into skulk form and pick up +15 racial mod to hide and +10 racial mod to move silently.

Really, the only way a wizard could pick him up is if he detects the magic on his gear, since he's hiding via his skill ranks, granted racial modifier, insane dex mod as well as the benefits of his Silk Steel Armour.


However, the spell Magic Aura will hide the magic inherent in his gear.

So, he's got potential as a wizard stalker/slayer.

He's got the ranged attack training to pull it off if he needs to (if I throw in some Magebane arrows to complete the other banes included; that or pick up a +1 MageBane comp long bow, then pick up 10 [Race]bane arrows of each type, +2 to hit/damage and +4d6 damage never hurt nobody).


Oh, I forgot to remove the DR; I traded out the Adamantine Breastplate for a set of Silk Steel armour instead; less Armour Skill and Armour Stealth penalties as a result.

[RandomCasualty]

Yeah lol, that's going to chew through pretty much all the CR 16s like a hot knife through butter.

[Cielingcat]

Extra BAB only increases your Max Dex, not your Dex bonus to AC. Unless you actually have 26 Dex, you wouldn't have +8 from it.

And wouldn't it be better to use the Dungeonomicon shapechanging variants, rather than the Alter Self --> Crucian thing?

Plus, Monsters should have their crappy feats replaced with the RoW versions.

[RandomCasualty]

1174152105[/unixtime]]
And wouldn't it be better to use the Dungeonomicon shapechanging variants, rather than the Alter Self --> Crucian thing?

Did Frank ever revise alter self? I remember he revised poly and such, but I don't remember an alter self revision anywhere. Unless I missed it.

[Cielingcat]

He put in Human Form at level 2, which presumably replaces Alter Self. The replacement variant would replace you with a Crucian, which probably isn't something you'd want.

[Judging__Eagle]

1174152105[/unixtime]]Extra BAB only increases your Max Dex, not your Dex bonus to AC. Unless you actually have 26 Dex, you wouldn't have +8 from it.

And wouldn't it be better to use the Dungeonomicon shapechanging variants, rather than the Alter Self --> Crucian thing?

Plus, Monsters should have their crappy feats replaced with the RoW versions.

Dex 15 (Base) +5 (Inherent) +4 (Item) +2 (levels 4 & 8)= 26 (+8)

Yeah, he's got 26 dex. I sort of posted his stats too Cielingcat.

I was a bit leery about doing that since I was essentially copying the Core fighter character's stats and attempted combat options (use chains and large size and either keep people back, or lunge into hordes of slightly weaker enemies and attack them) and I wanted to use Adamantine armours for their DR.

I opted for Silk steel armour instead, since it has benefits to sneaking/hiding.


In any case, this guy's pretty nuts.

He can Foil actions up to 60 feet away (sniper, I just remembered now that Foil action ability can get 60 feet earlier than normal with that feat).

He can't be ambushed unless his enemy has a really high bluff check (this guys own modifier is at around 15 ranks + 4 wisdom + 10 (Goggles of Sense Motive) for +29 on all sense motive checks), since anything within 60 feet is 'sensed'.



I'm thinking that shaving off about 7 points off of my other skills; grabbing a ring of UMD +10 and some minor wands with 3rd and 4th lvl spell wands will probably round this guys abilities out.

After all, he could just cast Haste, Greater Invisibility and Fly out of wands no problem with a +19 modifier.


Also, yeah, RC, I'm not sure if it can really have many weaknesses.

If you give this character a wand of Magic Aura, his natural ability to hide and be his own close range radar makes him pretty decent at killing almost anything.

I'm guessing that .... fvck, mobs don't really have a chance sicne he can whirlwind them to death dealing 50-70 damage to a pile of guys every round (and then abuse his 14 AoOs on either cleaves or AoOs on people that enter his threatened space after he's whirlwinded.

Really, you'll need some rather challenging encounters to test this character's mettle.


-----


Okay, let's get rid of Alter Self Craziness.


So, 53 AC becomes 45 AC.

Which is still high enough that most enemies won't want to risk power-attacking too much, if not they'll miss too often.



The Kolyarut and the Leonal are still two of the harder challenges that were presented.

I'd wager that the unlimted Vampiric Touch and the unlimited Enervation that the Kolyarut has would make that a hard fight.

The Leonal and the Wizard are challenging, but possibly winnable. Through either ranged attacks (Leonal) or sneaking up and dropping 6 attacks that can hit an AC of 33 or 31 (each pair of attacks dealing 50-70 damage so 150-210 hp).

Hmm, that's not bad damage either, 150-270 per round damage at lvl 12.

I'm betting that by level 20 this thing could possibly take on one of the CR 20+ or so Dragons, as they don't go too far past 600 HP, and this character at level 12 is able to deal up to half of that in one round (plus AoOs).


At level 20, he'll have an attack routine of: +55/+55/+53/+53/+53/+53/+53/+53

Coming from:
Current to-hit: +33/+31/+31

Add on: +8 (more BaB) +2 (assume +6 dex item and two more boosts to dex) +4 (wand of GMW, 20th lvl caster, 1+ charges) +2 (magebane weapon) +6 (attack buffs, seriously, lvl 7 parties can give themselves +6 or more to hit, at lvl 20 it's a snap)...

So, 8 attacks, all of which will probably hit a CR 26 Great Wyrm Red Dragon's 41 AC..... Meaning Power Attack goodness for bonus damage, to the tune of +24 damage per hit (53 - 41 = 12, I want all of my attacks hitting).

So, 8 attacks, that will all hit, a total fly speed on the fighter of of say 60 to keep back and then engage (charging allows a 120 foot movement, so I could choose to do strafing runs with only 2 attacks hitting)....nevermind, at collossal, it only has a reach of 30 feet with it's bite attack.

So, I can actually full melee it and it will only be able to use it's breath weapon 1/1-4 rounds and try to bite me.

Since the attacks all deal.... 2d6 (large warchain) + 2d6 (let's assume a Mage bane pair of weapons) + 20 (Blitz.... yeah, I know, AoOs, but if I am provoking 8 a round, I'll probably only get tagged once, but it could be with the bite attack...which can grapple, but then I can start cutting up with my armour spikes) + 24 (Power attack) + 10 (hopefully I'll have 30 dex, seeing as I have 26 at lvl 12, that seems easy enough) +5 (GMW) +2 (magebane) +4 (good hope, recitation) = [4d6 + 65] * 8 attacks.

Total damage: 32d6 (avg 96, but 32-192) + 520

Or, about 616 damage in one round. It has 660 HP.

The dragon has a to-hit of 59; hopefully I'm running around with Mirror Image, Blur and 50-ish AC (which is definately possible).



I might trade off to-hit for more AC, instead of damage.

Okay, AC

10
+10 (dex)
+13 (+5 heavy fortification silk steel armour)
+3 Vest of Nat Armour
+3 Ring of Protection
+1 Haste
+6 (+5 Buckler)
=46

+13 (Expertise)
=59 AC

Since it's got a To-Hit of +59 (+57 thanks to Recitation, if the SR check is made -_-)

So, trading out 13 to hit... I can only afford up to +12 BaB lost. Hmm, so it can still hit me.



My lvl 20 hp would be 20D10 (110) + 160 (con) + 20 (Great Fortitude) = 290 HP





In summary, at lvl 20, this guy will still have trouble dealing with a CR 26 dragon on his own.

With a wand of Wraithstrike, Mirror Image and Blur this could be easier done of course.

[Cielingcat]

1174163337[/unixtime]]
Yeah, he's got 26 dex. I sort of posted his stats too Cielingcat.

I totally missed that.

[bitnine]

1174163337[/unixtime]]Really, you'll need some rather challenging encounters to test this character's mettle.

Um... Can we use totally broken technical applications of the monster improvement guidelines as if they were hard and fast rules?

[MrWaeseL]

10 Base
8 (base +3 Dex Mod allowed + (1/2 BaB in extra dex mod)) Dex
2 Vest of Natural Armour +2 (Enhancement Natural Armour)
8 (Crucian Form) Headband of Alter Self (Racial Natural Armour)
2 Ring of Protection +2 (Defletction)
8 +1 Moderate Fortification Silk Steel Armour (Armour) (+2 on hide checks, negate the 1st -10 on move silently checks for moving, take 10 less damage when falling on flat ground)
4 +3 Buckler (Sheild) (no penalty, 13+ ranks in balance)

=52 Touch 30 FlatFooted 34

That adds up to 42

[Cielingcat]

He probably added the base 10 twice.

[Judging__Eagle]

Yeah, I must have added base 10 twice a the start, then kept using that value over and over again.

Thanks Lobster for catching it, I know that I probably wouldn't have Which is why I post the work that breaks down the sources of bonuses a character has; b/c I make dumb oversights like that.


Bitnine, advance a monster to CR 12 and let's break the RoW fighter's abilities down to see how well it does.


In any case, damn, I want to tack on more AC and I'm not sure how else to do so.

His AC is in the 30's without Crucian form (34).

Although, he could easily buy wands of Magic Vestment (20th lvl caster) with less than 50 charges (enough less that the wand will be under 15,000 gp) and thus gain an other +6 AC (+4 more on the armour, +2 more on the sheild).

Wands of Barkskin (+5) and Shield of Faith (+5) would help bump natural and deflection enhancements to AC an other +6 overall.

Haste also works, for +1 more AC.

So, 42 - 8 = 34 + 13 = 47

Rings of Counterspell (Greater Dispell Magic and Dispell Magic) or adding spell immunity to my gear would help keeping buffs from being fubared.

I guess, if I really need to tank, I can just grab a +5 Ice Aegis for +12 AC over +6 from a +5 Buckler.

Going up to 53 AC.

Expertise can pull it up to 73 (@ lvl 20), which means that the CR 26 Great Wyrm red hits on a 14 or better (if it's not power attacking, which will definately drop it's hit-rate; and I'm not using anything else other than what I listed here to increase).

Of course, at that point, I wouldn't be able to hit it.

However....

Opening up with 1 attacks at full attack bonus and 2 attacks at full bonus -2, then taking the -20 penalty on the last attack means AC jumps 20 points until my next round.

At least, that's how I read how Expertise and Power Attack work.

[Cielingcat]

Barkskin won't stack with your Vest, and Shield of Faith won't stack with your Ring.