Secret Page: Cheapo Dupe Spellbook Facilitator ... or Not?

[erik]

I think it would be fair and reasonable to restrict it such that you can only make a secret page of one spell into another spell that you already understand. It doesn't make much sense to be able to circumvent learning a spell by using secret page. I couldn't faithfully render a drawing of something I can't imagine after all.

At the very least, you should have to read a scroll or somebody else's spellbook and succeed in understanding the spell before secret paging it into your own book.

Even with that restriction there is still a workaround. You could have a buddy cast secret page on your cantrips to turn them into spells that he knows, and return the favor for him if you like, making an easy method of spell lending.

[User3]

1173097635[/unixtime]]I think it would be fair and reasonable to restrict it such that you can only make a secret page of one spell into another spell that you already understand. It doesn't make much sense to be able to circumvent learning a spell by using secret page. I couldn't faithfully render a drawing of something I can't imagine after all.

At the very least, you should have to read a scroll or somebody else's spellbook and succeed in understanding the spell before secret paging it into your own book.

Even with that restriction there is still a workaround. You could have a buddy cast secret page on your cantrips to turn them into spells that he knows, and return the favor for him if you like, making an easy method of spell lending.

While that might work around spells in your spellbook for Incantatrix, you'll have a bitch of a time memorizing them when they come online. The arcane writing section forces the mage to rewrite it in *his own notation*, which means he has to, post-understanding it, write it (or secret page it) anew so its in a form that's easy for him to understand. Otherwise he has to make a spellcraft check to prepare it every day (admittedly, for an incantatrix who has an item of spellcraft +30, because he does, this is trivial).

[User3]

It's trivial for pretty much everyone. The DC is 15+spell level, and Spellcraft is Int based and gets a synergy bonus from Know (Arcana). That means that at level 2, you're looking at a +10 or so, and by level 5 (when Secret Page comes online) you probably have a +15. That means you can take a couple of tries to master the spell (DC 25+spell level) and get to permanently treat it as though you wrote it.

An item of +30 spellcraft is seriously not even necessary.

[Username17]

1173087805[/unixtime]]It says it takes one page and lets you display something else there. It doesn't says it does it for you, just that anything can be placed there.
-Crissa

Wrong. It doesn't say that it creates a new fake blank page, it says:

Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. Thus, a map can be changed to become a treatise on burning ebony walking sticks. The text of a spell can be changed to show a ledger or even another spell.

That's what it really says. It makes no mention of creating a new slate that you have to write on. You spend 10 minutes casting the spell, and the new overlaid page has actual contents that people can fvcking read. And those contents can include "spells".

-Username17

[User3]

1173117881[/unixtime]]It's trivial for pretty much everyone. The DC is 15+spell level, and Spellcraft is Int based and gets a synergy bonus from Know (Arcana). That means that at level 2, you're looking at a +10 or so, and by level 5 (when Secret Page comes online) you probably have a +15. That means you can take a couple of tries to master the spell (DC 25+spell level) and get to permanently treat it as though you wrote it.

An item of +30 spellcraft is seriously not even necessary.

Oh, I agree, the item of +30 spellcraft isn't necessary for this. But the Incantatrix has it anyway, because he wants it to make the DC60+ checks for metamagic effect so he can Persistent Spell Shapechange for free.

[User3]

Right, which is why +Spellcraft items are supposed to be Epic. See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicIte ... br][br]The skill bonus items/spells are bad enough; there's no need to beat the system like a red-headed stepchild.

[User3]

1173121643[/unixtime]]Right, which is why +Spellcraft items are supposed to be Epic. See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicIte ... br][br]The skill bonus items/spells are bad enough; there's no need to beat the system like a red-headed stepchild.

That is an insight bonus. Totally different.

Competence bonuses to skills are available pre-epic in Core, to a maximum of +30, and cost (bonus^2*100)gp

Read your DMG. (You'll note the existence of rings of jumping, and the custom magic item rules allow you to generalize this to any skill).

[bitnine]

1173121643[/unixtime]]Right, which is why +Spellcraft items are supposed to be Epic.

You see, you woulda had me on board if you have said, "Which is why +skill items are sorta bullshit." But I guess opting for saying something totally wrong is another way to go.

[Leress]

I thought Epic did equal bullshit.

[User3]

Yeah, by "Epic" I meant "not in any kind of normal play". I mean, it's bad enough that you can get +30 to random skills with 1st-3rd level spells, but allowing +30 to a skill that is supposed to serve as a (poor) benchmark for level-appropriate abilities is really something you should not be doing in normal games.

The whole skill system is a disaster, though, and items of +30 are really just the icing on the cake.