Ugh, Playing a high level Phasm 'flavourfully' is still more

[Judging__Eagle]

Now, I have nothing but praise for Frank and K's supplements, but of course not all material can support all ideas.

You see, a couple months ago I started shwoing the material that they have written up to my gaming group b/c it's just such hot shit that I think everyone should read it.

One of the guys liked the material so much that he wrte up a Nightwalker PC race (a 17 HD, 3/4 BAB 'race/class' combination character who is CR 17).

Now, that's nice, except none of us are running a campaign where players start past 1st lvl, let alone 17th (this has now changed and we've started our WLD game at lvl 4 or 5, with some people at lvl 6 already).

So, this guy' brother offered to pit monsters against his PC in an arena and his other brother wanted to get in and play a monster or two and I hopped in since I've been wanting to play a Phasm PC since, well a long freaking time.


So, we've got:

(Oh, we're all.. good aligned, but 2/3 are evil races or usually evil races, the Nightwalker and Teifling, my own char will prolly be an Aasimar for the Cha/Wis(?) maybe I'll be a Teifling Archivist though)

A Nightwalker 17, he's a huge humanoid silhoette, with armour and a giant solid black great sword, and he has a flying shadesteel golem like some sort of parrot hovering over his shoulder.

A... Sactified Teifling 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 3/SpellSword 1/Wizard of the Lost Wizard Traditions 7/Master of Snake Mountain 4.

Since he couldn't decide on what sort of Monster to play (Any of the Trolls, Giants, Golems, Several Outsiders etc. etc.), I reccomended this as a 'Manager' for a whole team of monsters. So, he can just grab a monster manual, throw some gear and some grafts onto it and he's got a new cohort. Plus he's got his monsterous cohorts as well. One of the ideas for a monster chorot I reccomened was a fully advanced Summoning Ooze that his PC could ride with an adamantine throne.

So, a man, in armour, in a black metal thrown, riding on top of a red-pink blobl that pulsates with magical sigils and has elementals flying around it; and a Wartroll or Astral Stalker as the team captain for the elemental team.


Now, with my character, I wanted something that could change its form to suit whatever was going on currently, so the Phasm seemed best.

Of course, no matter what I did, there's no way to go past the 15 HD limit of the type of Polymorph that a HPasm has. While it's a pretty strong option, it wasn't as strong as I would have liked. Of course even taking levels in warshaper and 5 levels in a psion class in order to unlock the Metamorphic Ability form (to use a creature's Supernatural ability 3 times per day, or 3 Su abilities once a day from 3 different creatures; could easily be re-written for a non-psionic PC though) so I could command genies as a Yalkfolk or breath fire as a pyroclastic dragon or whatever the fvck I wanted to do.

So, instead, I'm just gonna play a 17th lvl Archivist 8/Sacred Exorcist 2/God Speaker 4-5/Radiant Servant of the Heavens 1+; who relies on persistant metamagiced Shapechange to .... 'be a Phasm' from a flavour point of view. Only a powerful one that can cast magic as well.

If asked, I'll tell people I'm an Indepentant Shoggoth who found religion.

The idea behind the classes is as follows:

Archivist 8 (decent skill list, spell casting, Int as a prime stat shoudl work with a Tiefiling base race, and it's an outsider )
Sacred Exorcist (Turning/Day = Div Metamagic cheese, mosty for Persistant shapechange; but also b/c being able to detect good at will and having evil outsiders as a favoured enemy makes good support mechanically for someone who likes to beat up bad guys)

God Speaker (Aka a renamed Sovreign Speaker; get bonus domains and domain slots, its' a 7/9 casting class that gives you +3 more domain slots per level at lvl 9 (so... over 9 spell levels if gives your 27 bonus spell slots, or your normal total spells + 36 domain spell slots), and a domain per level for 9 levels.

Radiant Servant of the Heavens (aka a renamed RSof Pelor; full armour/weapon profs, not a huge deal, but you get to empower/maximize healing domain spells; but that's actually sort of sucky; I can get staffs of healing with very few charges if I bitch-slap a room full of Efreeti into making me such things).

That's not all 17 class levels chewed up though.

I've got Archivist 8, Sac Ex 2, RSoH 1, GS 4+ so far. I'll probably just get more levels in God Speaker for more domains and just finish off the class.


Oh, as for the little 'problem' of not being able to cast 9th lvl spells until lvl 19. I'm gonna patch that up with a Candle of Invocation [
[counturl=42]Link[/counturl]]

So that I'll have... 19th lvl casting at lvl 17; which will equal 18th lvl casting since I'll be behind a level due to God Speaker losing 1 casting level at around 4 or 5 and eventually an other later on at lvl 7-8.

Since the candle's are 8,400; I can always just 'buy' my first candle 'long ago' and use it's Gate Function in order to gate in Efreeti who create me 3 candles, netting 2 candles per use of every one candle. Or straight gems.


So... ths brings me to an even more profound realization. Divine casters are even more broken than anticipated.

They can actually afford to lose caster levels with no appreciable cost. Since they can buy and use a cheap (almost) disposable item at level 15 to give themselves +2 full caster levels with new spells and everything as if they were 2 levels higher in that class, not just caster levels.

Anyway; persistant divine metamagiced shapechange is what I'm planning.

Any reccomendations or suggestions?

I know where the Shapchange/Polymorph/Supernatural abilities threads are on the WoTC boards, I was just wondering if this is a valid tactic for someone who wants to play a character that can change his shape to great effect in both combat and non-combat encounters (although, this campaign will probably never see non-combat).

[Username17]

Wonderful, Polymorph Cheese and Candle of Invocation Cheese at the same time. That harkens back to an innocent age when the way the rules worked with regards to shape changing was considered knowable.

Now of course, there is absolutely nothing that I can say that will accurately predict what will happen when your character casts shapechange. Between the Polymorph Subschool rules, and the shapechange errata, and the polymorph errata, and the alter self errata, and the transformation clarifications, there is so much conflictory text and so many inheritance clauses that I seriously have no clue what is supposed to happen when you turn into a Pit Fiend. And honestly, neither does anyone else.

I mean sure, you can get a free wish every round by transforming into a wide variety of Zodars - that's pretty clear. But what happens to your hit points, your class abilities, your attack bonuses, your senses, and so on - no fvcking clue.

---

The Candle of Invocation is broken. Pick up a Candle of Invoking Chaotic Evil and then sit your Lawful Good Rogue in front of it and have him emulate Alignment (CE) and emulate class (Cleric) and watch your perfectly ordinary Rogue prepare and cast spells as a 28th level Cleric. Or just use it "as intended" only use five of them because it provides an unnamed bonus and doesn't use up a slot. If you're allowed to use that item at all, the DDM deserves what he gets.

---

In short, I can't give you min/max advice on this character, as the two core items in the build are broken and incomprehensible.

-Username17

[Judging__Eagle]

Oh, wow.

And I thought I was just using a passable method to patch up my lost spell casting level.

I should... probably use 3 of these at a time, right?

One as my archivist; then UMD to see if I can act like an archivist higher than I really am.

Then again as a Druid.

Then again as a Cleric?

I think you just did give me min/max advice there Frank. Advice that gives the build a Super Health and a BFG with no charge-up time or ammo limit.



Wait.... I could grab some more and emulate pally, ranger, shujenga or adept casting if I so chose.... or Ur-Priest casting?


So, at least triple, but quadruple casting (Arch, Cleric, Druid, Ur-Priest)....

Oh, snap. Only triple casting; my flavour is that my character is the proxy of multiple gods. So, no Ur-Priest.


Unless I now become....

"...Cleric, the Free-Lance Cleric; I get to choose my domains and deity every day!"

-8-Bit Theatre, Cleric



As for the confusion on being a different shape, I'm gonna try to be as clean as possible, retain HP, class levels, and attack bonus; that's part of 'training' and 'skill'; I guess. I'll have full BaB anyway.

Senses, I'll pick up from new forms and although my Con will go all over the place in different form, tracking new hp is probably a bad and really stupid idea.


So, my character becomes the equivalent of a magical juggernaut, plowing through enemies with a magically augmented body and plain old blasting.

[Endovior]

I'm pretty certain that the Candle of Invocation doesn't do that...

Candle of Invocation

Each of these special tapers is dedicated to one of the nine alignments. Simply burning the candle generates a favorable aura for the individual so doing if the candle’s alignment matches that of the character. Characters of the same alignment as the burning candle add a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks while within 30 feet of the flame.

A cleric whose alignment matches the candle’s operates as if two levels higher for purposes of determining spells per day if he burns the candle during or just prior to his spell preparation time. He can even cast spells normally unavailable to him, as if he were of that higher level, but only so long as the candle continues to burn. Except in special cases (see below), a candle burns for 4 hours.

In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.

Strong conjuration; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, gate, creator must be same alignment as candle created; Price 8,400 gp;Weight ½ lb.

It specifies cleric, for one thing, and buffs only cleric spellcasting. So even though specified LG Rogue could emulate CE for the morale bonus, emulating Cleric for the caster level bonus wouldn't work, at least not in the broken epic casting sense. Why?

Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Note especially that Use Magic Device, in and of itself, provides no cleric spellcasting; it can meet a prerequisite for it, so far as the item's concerned, but it's not an actual ability. As such, the rogue would get a +2 caster level boost to his nonexistent cleric spellcasting... probably doing nothing, though a generous DM might interpret 'spells normally unavailable to him' as 'cleric spells to a rogue', and thus give him two levels of cleric spellcasting... but it's a rather high price to pay for four orisons and 4/5 1st-level spells; if the rogue in question can reliably hit DC 30 on UMD, he's better off using wands for his low-level healing needs.

Of course, it could be pointed out that the rogue in question could surround himself with a whole mess of Candles, thus 'virtually' gaining a heap of cleric casting, even at high levels... but I'm fairly certain that this is cheaper to do with UMD on scrolls or staffs... and it's less abusive of DM generosity, which is likely to vanish when confronted with outright cheatery.

[Catharz]

1169187532[/unixtime]]
Note especially that Use Magic Device, in and of itself, provides no cleric spellcasting; it can meet a prerequisite for it, so far as the item's concerned, but it's not an actual ability.

This is the old monk's belt/Holy Avenger/wild shape amulet argument: 'If an item improves a class feature, and you emulate that class feature to use the item, do you benefit from the item?'

I used to be pretty much completely of the opinion, that yes, it did. Even if that's the RAW, though, it's possible that that wasn't the intention of whoever wrote up the UMD rules. When it comes to the intent of D&D rules, Wizard's brand of errata/FAQ/Q&A make them clear as mud.

[Endovior]

Perhaps so (indeed, I concede that for the purposes of the argument), BUT that doesn't mean that you gain an 'emulated' class feature to the highest level you can emulate. You can gain to the extent of the magical improvement (otherwise, the ability to use the item is useless), but not to the extent of your roll.

It's the difference between getting a +2 to Cleric casting and getting +20 levels of Cleric casting... the second assumes that you actually gain the levels of casting that you emulate if you use some means to buff it... but the RAW specifically specifies that you don't.

[Username17]

It's the difference between getting a +2 to Cleric casting and getting +20 levels of Cleric casting... the second assumes that you actually gain the levels of casting that you emulate if you use some means to buff it... but the RAW specifically specifies that you don't.

When you activate a Staff, you need to have the spell on your class list. When the spell is cast, it uses the minimum class level required to cast the spell, or your class level, whichever is greater.

So if you use magic device, you get to cast spells out of a staff at the emulated caster level, right?

By that logic, an item that allows you to prepare spells according to the table entry of a Cleric two levels higher than your caster level... could be UMDed to instead prepare spells according to the table entry of a Cleric two levels higher than your emulated caster level.

When you emulate the "spellcastig" ability of a spellcaster, you don't just emulate the class binarily - you emulate a specific class level determined by your check result.

-Username17

[Endovior]

I see where you're going with that, but no. Again, RAW specifically notes that you don't actually get the ability, regardless of anything else. Basically, so far as the item is concerned, you have the power, and the item works accordingly (hence: Use Magic Device). As far as the universe is concerned, you've tricked an item, not gained Real Ultimate Power.

So far as our examples go, the staff thinks you ARE a powerful caster, and blasts accordingly (as such, using a Staff is an excellent option). Likewise, as far the candle is concerned, you ARE a Chaotic Evil Cleric, and it will gladly forge you up a connection with the Gods of Evil and Chaos to aid in your malign work. As far as the Gods of Evil and Chaos are concerned, you're an interloper. A Lawful and Good interloper with no actual casting power and probably not enough wisdom to cast spells of high level anyways. You might steal a bit of power, ala Ur-Priest, but it's not maximum casting just because you fooled the item; for that, you need to fool the gods. Your own gods will probably think similarly (although with less hatred and animosity and more "you really don't know what you're doing, but thanks for trying").

[Username17]

Endovior, you are essentially making the argument "The DM won't let that fly because it's dumb." - and that's actually true. In this case, it's just dumb.

But if you willing to allow for an item to use your emulated caster level for the purposes of what a spell effect will do when cast out of an item, you have also allowed a literal reading of an emulated caster level to determine chart placement if a magic item puts you somewhere on a spell preperation table.

Basically, bullshit items like the Druid's Vestments, the Monk's Belt, the Candle of Invocation, and the Amulet of Turning are legacy items that are definitionally completely broken now that Use Magic Device exists at all. Items that give you a class feature at a higher level than the one you have are broken on first principles, but they are really broken when there are characters who can use items as if they had dozens of levels in a class that they don't even have.

---

But coming up with weird semantic bullshit to try to undermine individual abuses is pointless. The fact is that no matter how much wiggle room you find in one of these legacy items, the fact is that another one will be worded less ambiguously (like the Druid's Vestments, for example) - and the game is still broken.

The only way to get at this is to strike at the heart - to admit that there is a problem and move on with your life. Just because the rules say this (and they do) doesn't mean that you have to play that way - but you do irreparable harm to the game if you try to finagle a "rules" argument against fairly clear pieces of abuse such as this one.

-Username17

[Endovior]

I totally agree. Generally speaking, the rules are ambiguous, and that is the heart of the problem. It makes me sad that the RAW isn't well-written enough to stand up to this kind of thing... the intent is usually clear enough, but the devil is in the details; leaving the balance of the game poised on how you interpret things. The unfortunate state of things is that matters are hazy enough that the strongest rulewise argument in favor of a rational ruling amounts to little more then quibbling over semantics.

Overall, I'd say it's about time for a fourth edition, but I don't have any confidence that it'd be written any better then the current one.

[Judging__Eagle]

1169370497[/unixtime]]I see where you're going with that, but no. Again, RAW specifically notes that you don't actually get the ability, regardless of anything else. Basically, so far as the item is concerned, you have the power, and the item works accordingly (hence: Use Magic Device). As far as the universe is concerned, you've tricked an item, not gained Real Ultimate Power.

So far as our examples go, the staff thinks you ARE a powerful caster, and blasts accordingly (as such, using a Staff is an excellent option). Likewise, as far the candle is concerned, you ARE a Chaotic Evil Cleric, and it will gladly forge you up a connection with the Gods of Evil and Chaos to aid in your malign work. As far as the Gods of Evil and Chaos are concerned, you're an interloper. A Lawful and Good interloper with no actual casting power and probably not enough wisdom to cast spells of high level anyways. You might steal a bit of power, ala Ur-Priest, but it's not maximum casting just because you fooled the item; for that, you need to fool the gods. Your own gods will probably think similarly (although with less hatred and animosity and more "you really don't know what you're doing, but thanks for trying").

So, you can have your cake and eat it too?

Well, that's nice, but when you take a liberal interpretation that makes UMD when you want or not; I'll stck with it working the way it's supposed to.

You trick the item enough and the cosmos must bend themselves over and proffer their awesomeness to your persuasive self.

If some monks, clerics, druids and/or paladins come after your evil rogue when they find out that you are emulating thier powers for your own nefarious purposes and come after you that's an other thing.

Plus you can prolly bluff them that you're a Asetic Knight who protects the natural world with your Divinely granted powers.

As long as you aren't actually abusing your powers for evil, good doesn't care; you're on their team in one form or an other. It's all about beating Team Monster and Team Fiend really.


Really Endovior, you're looking at the Gamist elements here as a means to nip the Gamist mess that is virtual level-boosting gear.

Instead, try to find Narrativist solutions to this Gamist problem.


Ex:

The rogue is able to punch and dodge like a monk, slash enemies apart with his Holy Avenger while slashing any magic that tries to affect him; is able to assume various animal forms and is able to tap into the fonts of various divine powers.

Now, he's really powerful and you need a way to tone him down, or nerf him.

Don't.

Don't you get it?

The powers love to have extremely powerful mortals at their diposal.

Why?

1. They can't be called when on different planes since they're not outsiders. So, they won't easily be whisked away to roll taqitos in the negative energy plane until they die unless someone knows their Truename.

2. They are able to fight and die since you can always true res them for free (you are a Power afterall). Outsiders don't have that luxury.

3. Unless you have really tough Proxy (ie. high lvl), you won't be able to accomplish as much via a proxy. However, high level Proxies are very, very uncommon. mostly since they're so tough that they can't easily be bullied around and can Plane Shift then Greater Teleport to a safe place out of a Power's reach.

To make such tough proxies, Powers tend to overload their lower level Proxies with powerful; or at least lots of, gear.




For a hilarious twist on campaign setting; all the planes-hopping monks are probably unarmed trained rogues and the paladins are combat trained rogues.

They've simply been given Holy Avengers, Monk's Belts and probably Sun Swords to help them do their jobs better. As well as inspire lowbies into being Paladins or Monks.

Afterall, one of the 'best' Paladin builds is actually based around 10 level in the Chameloun class (The Roland, Bear of the North build) to give the character more options for non-combat situations. So, having high level 'Monks' and 'Paladins' actually be rogues who UMD monks belts or holy avengers is definately interesting.





Really, instead of wanting to change something so terrbily badly, think of the implications of something working the way it does.

You, may, of course have to come up with a new rule to explain why something in the game world exists (the Dungeonomicon's explanation as to why Dungeouns exist suddenly removes the massive threat that is Scry & Die as well as explains the existance of Dungeouns in one fell swoop); but try instead to see what possible implications the rules could lead a campaign to.


A lot of the time, the difference between something broken and something almost hidden from the masses is a matter of context.

In the context of 4 players, sure, itmes that can be UMD'd to createmore personal power are 'broken'. However, b/c they are broken, Powers are able to scoop up potential problem Adventurers and comandeer them into working for them.

I'm sure that Heironious has snatched up a few rogues who figured out that they could 'technically' use a Holy Avenger for his own pool of Proxies.

Strictly to keep an eye on them and teach them to use their powers for good, of course.

[RandomCasualty]

1169422756[/unixtime]]I totally agree. Generally speaking, the rules are ambiguous, and that is the heart of the problem. It makes me sad that the RAW isn't well-written enough to stand up to this kind of thing... the intent is usually clear enough, but the devil is in the details; leaving the balance of the game poised on how you interpret things. The unfortunate state of things is that matters are hazy enough that the strongest rulewise argument in favor of a rational ruling amounts to little more then quibbling over semantics.

Overall, I'd say it's about time for a fourth edition, but I don't have any confidence that it'd be written any better then the current one.

Well, yeah. The rules aren't being written by contract lawyers. They're written by low income writers. Really, we have to ditch the idea of sacred RAW and just accept that in an RPG (especially an extensible RPG), you're going to have stupid shit, and in that case, the DM has to step in and say, "No, you can't do that."

But so long as the writers and the sage try to project the impression that the rules are flawless and should be interpreted like holy text, we're going to have problems.

[Brobdingnagian]

Nightwalkers rule.

That being said, and completely not being supported at all, on to my next point.

Rogues rule way harder.

Also.

Real Rogues play Clerics, but the best Rogues are 'Clerics', not to mention 'Druids', 'Paladins', 'Rangers', and a couple 'Favoured Souls', just for the hell of it.

I mean, by the time a Rogue can accomplish this stuff, he's like, what, at least 15th level? Isn't all that what high-level characters are not only supposed to do, but in fact expected to do on a regular basis?

I dunno, I've never made it that high myself. And my Nightwalker is far from optimised. He's just really, really cool and ungodly difficult to kill. Just what I've heard.

[Judging__Eagle]

1172665702[/unixtime]]Nightwalkers rule.


Real Rogues play Clerics, but the best Rogues are 'Clerics', not to mention 'Druids', 'Paladins', 'Rangers', and a couple 'Favoured Souls', just for the hell of it.

Now your just padding my ego by quoting me.

I haven't seen this thread in a couple of weeks now actually.