Polymorph and Friends

[The_Hanged_Man]

I don't think that's true. The spells changed dramatically from 2E to 3.0. Expecting a change in 3.5 was too much, b/c the spells are too wonky to fix w/in the 3.0 system, and too important a concept to throw away. So, they left it alone in 3.5 (basically).

IMO, the real problem w/ the spells isn't in teh spells themselves. The rule interpretation issues could be fixed quickly. Just say "no templates," clear up sizes, get rid of type changes, and clarify what attack forms you get. That's easy.

No, the real problem is the wonky monster descriptions. Vorpal swords as an ability? +25 ability bonuses? Polymorphing into a bat that can't echolocate? Those break the system, no matter what you do with the spell. Monsters need to be described w/ polymorph in mind. What if each description just had a little "p" by each ability to let you know if you got it through shapechanging, for example?

[Jonathan_Drain]

That'd require editing every monster in the book. Preferable would be a rewrite or revision of the Polymorph spells which clears all confusion up for good. For example, it should specify whether or not PAO breaks Polymorph's size limit, whether or not Polymorph allows templates, whether or not Polymorph gives you the creature's gear and so on.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Of course it requires re-writing every monster in the book. But there's not a whole lot of alternative. Polymorph has several technical problems:

1. What sizes?
2. Templates?
3. Type change?
4. Attack methods?
5. Qualities you get/lose?
6. Wonky attribute changes?

You can fix 1, 2, and 3 by fixing the wording of the spell.

4 is more difficult. It seems like you can fix it by clarity, but then you're left w/ some bad results, like Hydras, Octopi, and a few others that don't translate well. That has to be fixed on teh monster end - by specificying what you get from each monster. Nobody cares, for example, if you get 5 bite attacks w/ a hydra. I'm a little concerned about getting 24.

5 just can't be fixed by changing Polymorph. In the monster descriptions, some things are special qualities, some are special attacks; some are Ex, some Su; some monster feats, some abilities or Type abilities. No matter how much you fix Polymorph, you're still going to have weird things like bats and ankhegs that can't sense things right, or stupid things like getting blindsense. It's going to be a problem unless each monster description is written w/ polymorph in mind. If you're doing that, why not just put a little note that tells, in teh description, what happens to changed shapes?

6 also can't be changed. Getting Firbolg strenght is just crazy stupid good. Getting +25 natural armor bonus is just crazy stupid good. Getting a 200'/round fly speed is crazy stupid good. Polymorph address speed and stuff, but addressing all attribute changes in the spell description saves little over just saying in the monster descrption what you get from polymor

IMO, it'd be easier to just add a little "p" in the monster descriptions than to have a 20 page rule for polymorph addressing all these problems. Polymorph could just say "You get what the description says." End of story.

[Username17]

At that rate, it's easier to write Polymorph as a series of packages in the spell itself, and divorce itself from monster entries altogether.

There's no reason why Shapechanging into a Phoenix should allow you to produce unlimited Phoenixes - but it does. And no amount of working on the spell description is going to solve that so long as it is based on monster descriptions at all.

All you really want the entire line of spells to do is:

1> Allow you to disguise yourself as the Prince.
2> Allow you to transform into a very small creature and escape/spy.
3> Turn you into a big scaly monster so you can breathe fire on people.
4> Turn you into a flying monster so you can menace ships.
5> Turn into a Giant Snake so you can crush the hero.
6> Maintain your giant size for up to one hour in Earth's polluted atmosphere.
7> Turn the puppet into a boy to bring gladness to an old man's heart.
8> Transform the handsome knight into a hideous monster so that noone could possibly love them.
9> Transform some unhappy villager into a newt until he gets better.
10> Transform your pawns in the council into swine when you no longer have need of them.
11> Allow lovers from different worlds to to be together.

That's all any of the spells have to do. So you could just write that, and divorce it from the monster entries altogether.

You want this:

and this:

and this:

and this:

and this:

And this:


But there's no good reason for any of the spells to be this:



-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

If it's not based on monster descriptions, it's just a stat-buffing spell, with some ancillary abilities thrown in. Changing shape is just fluff that goes along with stat changes. Nothing wrong with that, but if that's what you're going to do, why have polymorph at all?

And the problems of basing it on monster descriptions go away, once monster descriptions are written to take into account the fact that somebody might polymorph into that shape. If the designers had to actually look at the stinking Balor as a shapechangeable shape, they probably wouldn't have included a Vorpal Sword as a SU ability.

PS - I think your Aladdin pictures didn't come through.

[Username17]

And the problems of basing it on monster descriptions go away, once monster descriptions are written to take into account the fact that somebody might polymorph into that shape.

That's never going to work. Let's face it, the Phoenix was designed with the concept that people might transform into it - that's why its Phoenix duplication engine is a Supernatural ability that you can't get even with the 3rd edition Shapechange.

There are hundreds of monsters per book - dozens of monster books - and literally thousands of monsters. It is unrealistic to believe that a small collection of spells, when multiplied by thousands of options, are going to still be balanced.

It's simply not possible to balance it over thousands upon thousands of options. Which is why it needs to go down to about 12 or 20.

If it's not based on monster descriptions, it's just a stat-buffing spell, with some ancillary abilities thrown in. Changing shape is just fluff that goes along with stat changes.

So it's just a "stat buffing spell" if you grow wings and fly around? It's just a "stat buffing spell" if you transform the target into a small and weak creature?

What the hell?

Personally, I think the spell has a lot more flavor if transforming the target into a small creature has the same game effect regardless of whether they are now a snail or a toad. That way you choose the form which is most approriate to your character and the situation instead of always choosing the single most helpless living organism still recognized as a creature (which is, by the way, the cave slug - it can't see or move fast enough to escape from things - but it's not actually in immediate environmental danger from much of anything and has a brain).

Hunting through monster entries isn't "flavorful" - it's retarded. There are still only 20 forms, it's just that now they are compeltely weird and arbitrary forms instead of looking like whatever you want them to.

People turn into Firbolgs because they have a Strength of 36. Which means that every time you want to become big and strong, you get red hair for some reason. That's not more flavor, that's less flavor. And it's stupid. If the "Giant Size" form was static in the bonuses you got, you could look like Ultraman, or Giganta, or Orion, or whatever. That's flavor. That's people turning into character appropriate stuff instead of arbitrary crap they data mined out of the monster manual 2.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

If you remove monster descriptions from providing the basic powers of polymorph, your left w/ stats. The spell might be something like, for example, you can increase or decrease:

physical attributes up to caster level/2;
natural armor up to caster level/2;
size up to caster level/4;
fly speed up to 60, swim speed up to 40, etc.;
a list of natural attacks;
change outward appearance;
and a list of special qualities/ex abilities/feats.

To me, that's a stat buffer. And, b/c the stats don't come in pre-packaged forms, it's very vulnerable to min-maxxing.

The alternative is to have a bunch of different packages, based on level. That's fine, but it'll add dozens of spells to the spell list, each of which is a mini-monster manual of stuff you can do. Or the spells will refer to a template that is basically a mini-monster manual.

If the spell is going to be a mini-monster manual anyway, why not just incorporate the monster manual into the spell directly? The designers are thinking about balance issues and junk anyway, is it really that much more effort just to look at the monster as a polymorphed shape? Mebbe it is. I don't design games, so I could be off base.

[Jonathan_Drain]

That's a plausible spell, although it is defeating the point of Polymorph. The ability of magicians to turn one person or creature into another is a staple of fantasy fiction. As a D&D spell, it's inevitable that some munchkin will find a way to minmax the hell out of Polymorph by turning into things with insanely high strength, or natural armor, or special abilities.

Monsters aren't usually balanced too well when it comes to being able to Polymorph or Shapechange into them. They're mostly designed for you to fight, not for you to become. When they wrote up the Phoenix or converted it from an old edition of AD&D, we can only guess as to whether or not they realised at the time that someone would Shapechange and get them. Game designers are only human, after all.

[Username17]

JD, I'm still waiting on you to submit your unified field theory of an interpretation of Polymorph which actually covers the facts detailed above.

Waiting....

-Username17

[Jonathan_Drain]

Yeah, I know you are. I'm guessing you're also going to dispute what Skip told me yesterday, that elemental wild shape allows only the fire elementals, earth elementals, etc, and not merely elementals of the required subtype - because Skip's always wrong, right?

PAO was originally based on Polymorph Other, which had no HD limit, and PAO has not changed at all to compensate for the endless revisions of Polymorph/Polymorph Other to date. In fact, looking at my 2nd edition Player's Handbook, PAO hasn't been changed a heck of a lot since 2nd edition, despite its "as polymorph (other), except" clause and the advantages and limitations it gains thereof.

I guess my interpretation can't change your interpretation, and to be honest, I'm not really fussed. Your way works for you, mine works for me, and if a situation arises in my game where the polymorph series becomes a hassle, I'll put a houserule on it that sorts things out. That's why I'm not worried - D&D is played and run by people, and if something in the rules doesn't make sense or doesn't feel right, it's DM's right to fix it.

As written, I'll admit that pure inheritance (perhaps the most technically logical of methods) combined with pure logic doesn't work with the spells as written. 3.5 was rushed anyway and they never really did get Polymorph perfect. If we're to assume that common sense is intended, then 15HD beats 5HD (elsewise it's dumb), and so on.

I can't rationalize most of the stuff in your previous list for this reason. You take it one way, it makes zero sense. Take it the other, it's still slightly flaky but it works. With regards Drowbasher and Favored Enemy: Elf, the designation of "drow" as a race and "elf" as a race (of which drow is a subtype, hence all drow are also elves), it's clear what's meant by each designation, rules-wise. (Unlike "elemental", which is both a creature and a type, there's no confusion as to what "elf" and "drow" mean.)

If I recall, however, we disagree on whether or not "dragon" beats "no-templates", so this argument will never really be resolved. You said yourself that you don't really like your model, so perhaps the best we can do is bitch at WotC (or ask them nicely, whatever ) and ask them for a clarification or revision of the Polymorph chain that sorts this all out once and for all.