Polymorph and Friends

[Jonathan_Drain]

If you won't agree with my stance that Polymorph's clearly stated 15HD limit implies that the 5HD limit is lifted, or that a Construct named "Dragon Killer" is not a dragon in any way, then perhaps I can do no more to attempt to convince you. We'll have to agree to disagree on these points.

However, I'd like to correct myself where I earlier said "I am baffled that Polymorph doesn't specify that it allows a size increase." Upon further investigation I discovered that Alter Self, the basis of Polymorph, allows the caster to assume a form one size larger or smaller than themselves.

I'm going on blind faith* when I say that a new 15HD limit clearly shows that the 5HD limit is no longer intended, or when I say that "The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types..." implies that the limitation of being able to change into one's own type is superceded. I'm going on it because the wording of "This spell functions like alter self, except" is very clear in its designation of Polymorph as a subset of Alter Self, and the alternative of both a 15HD and a 5HD limit makes no sense.

* When I say blind faith, I really mean a degree course with a semester learning propositional logic and a year learning object-oriented systems and inheritance.

[RandomCasualty]

1081350957[/unixtime]]
But it is heavily implied to be one of the other two - because you gain the Spell-like abilties of the new form. The Fire Elemental from page 39 doesn't have any Spell-like abilities.

In fact, none of the creatures from the monster entry in the 3.5 Monster Manual called "Elemental" have any Spell-like abilties.

Oh, there's certainly a strong case that it is one of the other two, don't get me wrong.

But I play it in my games that a druid can only become the one fire elemental creature. I dunno if that's a house rule or not, because as I said, the wording is rather ambiguous, and there's no 100% concrete proof of either side. Even if there were, I'd probably still rule 0 it.

But as for the official answer to the question... I have no clue. I would guess that if you put the question to the sage on three separate occasions, he'd give you three completely different and contradictory answers.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1081304809[/unixtime]]Right... you have no clue as to what you are talking about, do you?

I know exactly what I'm talking about. Polymorph says that it behaves like Alter Self, except as noted in the rest of it's own spell description. Said spell description says nothing about templates. Alter Self does. Since Polymorph inherits everything about Alter Self that Polymorph itself doesn't directly contradict, Polymorph keeps Alter Self's "no templates" rule. It's not hard. I'm not talking balance, I'm not talking intent, I'm talking RAW. The RAW just doesn't back you up here. If calling me delusional or uninformed is better for you than admitting the rules don't back you up, then I guess that's fine. It still doesn't make you right.

And if you're going to say that it makes Polymorph retain Alter Self's 5hd cap, then whatever. I can't argue that without arguing intent, and I know arguing intent with you is more pointless than arguing with you period. I can say this, there's a damned sight better case for Polymorph 15hd cap superceding Alter Self's 5hd cap than there is for Polymorph allowing templates because it doesn't say otherwise.

Perhaps we should just once again agree that inheritance is stupid, and the game designers should just type out the whole spell next time.

-Desdan

[fbmf]

1081364993[/unixtime]]

1081304809[/unixtime]]Right... you have no clue as to what you are talking about, do you?

If calling me delusional or uninformed is better for you than admitting the rules don't back you up, then I guess that's fine.

-Desdan

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
No, it's not, either.

I said at the beginning that you guys were welcome to discuss this as long as you kept it friendly. Please do so.
[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

[Username17]

I can say this, there's a damned sight better case for Polymorph 15hd cap superceding Alter Self's 5hd cap than there is for Polymorph allowing templates because it doesn't say otherwise.

Again and still - that's the same argument. One is saying that the whole text of Polymorph includes forms not allowed in Alter Self, and the other is saying that the whole text of Polymorph includes forms not allowed in Alter Self. There's absolutely no difference at all. Polymorph allows you to turn a halfling wizard into a 10 hit die large dragon - Alter Self won't allow you to turn a halfling wizard into something with a template, something with more than 5 hit dice, something larger than medium, or something wiht the dragon type. Polymorph, however, is the primary source - and its whole text beats the whole text of Alter Self if there is any disagreement at all.

The whole text argument is the only argument, because the text is not broken down into specific negatable clusters nor are there any specific negations of any restrictions in Alter Self.

You can very much have a 5 hit die limit and a 15 hit die limit at the same time - although the 15 hit die limit doesn't do jack until the 5 hit die limit goes away. That's the logic that, for instance, allows you to still retain invisibility while I'm blind. It's why you being paralyzed doesn't release you from web's entangled condition. A bigger restriction doesn't make a smaller restriction go away, and getting a smaller restriction doesn't make a larger restriction go away either.

Either the whole text of Polymorph simply ignores any parts of Alter Self which restrict it (sucha as the size, hit die, and template restrictions) - or it carries over all the restrictions. Not both. And not some bastard combination of the two.

And the fact that you switch between arguing for and against that position within the same sentence is kind of insulting.
-Username17

[Jonathan_Drain]

Either the whole text of Polymorph simply ignores any parts of Alter Self which restrict it (sucha as the size, hit die, and template restrictions) - or it carries over all the restrictions. Not both. And not some bastard combination of the two.

As per the text "as alter self, except", Polymorph carries over all the restrictions, except where those restrictions are redefined by Polymorph. I don't see how one can read that part any other way.

I will admit that Polymorph's description is somewhat poorly written. It should list the ways in which it extends Alter Self, rather than how it's limited - for example, instead of "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level...", it should say "The assumed form can have at most as many hit dice as your caster level..."

I just don't get it. Alter Self says no templates. Polymorph does indeed redefine the type limitation and HD limit - it's somewhat poorly written, but it does. However, you can't assume that a complete omission of any reference to templates in Polymorph somehow magically trumps a prior limitation which was never lifted. "I can become a dragon" doesn't mean squat with regards polymorphing into half-dragon because Polymorph doesn't say you can apply templates, and in fact, in its inheritance of all of Alter Self's properties means that it can't, period. "Primary Source" is not a valid argument against this, since the primary source inherits all of Alter Self by default.

[The_Hanged_Man]

1081372830[/unixtime]]However, you can't assume that a complete omission of any reference to templates in Polymorph somehow magically trumps a prior limitation which was never lifted. "I can become a dragon" doesn't mean squat with regards polymorphing into half-dragon because Polymorph doesn't say you can apply templates, and in fact, in its inheritance of all of Alter Self's properties means that it can't, period. "Primary Source" is not a valid argument against this, since the primary source inherits all of Alter Self by default.

Break it down, and you'll see Frank's point. Polymorph=ALter Self, except where it says otherwise.

Alter Self limits changes to within type. Polymorph doesn't explicitly say it changes the ALter Self limit to only changes w/in type. Instead, it says you can change into several different types. Those two statements don't conflict.

So, literally, Polymorph does not change the ALter Self restriction on type. Instead, it only allows you to change a halfling into another humanoid. Literally, it does not allow a halfling to change into a dragon, because Polymorph does not explicitly say that it allows a change in type.

We can read Polymorph to allow type changes, but that is not the literal reading. That is a flavored reading, taking into account that Polymorph is silly if read literally.

[Jonathan_Drain]

I see. So where we are contending is as follows. I believe that the text of Polymorph is badly written and should be interpreted in a way that makes sense, especially considering that it's how Polymorph Self/Other used to work in 3.0. (e.g., a 15HD limit would be a dumb thing to include if the 5HD limit was still meant to be in place, hence it should be taken to mean that the 15HD limit supercedes the 5HD limit). Our friend Frank also sees that it makes no sense if taken literally, but instead believes that it's okay to entirely ignore the parts that make no sense if taken literally.

If this is the case, what part of "as alter self, except" and "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template" makes no sense?

[The_Hanged_Man]

If you believe that Polymorph allows you to change type, then the same language that allows a change of type also arguably allows templates. The limits of ALter Self or implicitly overrules in that respect b/c you are allowed to change into any,Dragon, for example. A half-dragon is of the Dragon type (IIRC). Polymorph allows you to change into a Dragon. So, Polymorph allows you to take that template.

But, it really doesn't matter. Polymorph doesn't work. literally, so you just need to pick a houserule that owrks.

[Username17]

Our friend Frank also sees that it makes no sense if taken literally, but instead believes that it's okay to entirely ignore the parts that make no sense if taken literally.

No. The spell actually can be read literally in a way which makes sense.

It goes like this:

When it says that you can turn into a Dragon, that doesn't mean "subject to the restrictions of Alter Self" - it means that you can turn into a frickin Dragon. Any Dragon at all. Great Wyrms, Wyverns, Half-Drgon Cyclopses, whatever. If it's a Dragon, you can turn into it. At that point, any and all restrictions of Alter Self that would prevent you from turning into a Dragon are ignored.

Now, Polymorph brings in new restrictions to itself. It limits you to no more than 15 hit dice, and won't let you turn into something smaller than fine. And... that's it. Those restrictions apply to the "dragon" allowance, because they are in the same spell. Unlike the restrictions of Alter Self, they are the primary source and don't have lesser weight than the rule that you can turn into a Dragon.

That reading makes sense, is consistent, and continues to function all the way up the chain. Polymorph Any Object, for example, doesn't even mention any restrictions at all. If we didn't believe that the line saying that it could turn a creature or object into any creature or object truly allowed access to any creature or object - it couldn't do anything at all that Polymorph couldn't do because it doesn't actually mention any restrictions.

Granted that the examples of using it include things that break restrictions of Alter Self and Polymorph every which way - but under the consistent reading that simply doesn't matter. It said that you can turn the subject into any creature or object as the primary source, and those restrictions are not in the primary source - so they simply don't count.

I believe that the text of Polymorph is badly written and should be interpreted in a way that makes sense, especially considering that it's how Polymorph Self/Other used to work in 3.0. (e.g., a 15HD limit would be a dumb thing to include if the 5HD limit was still meant to be in place, hence it should be taken to mean that the 15HD limit supercedes the 5HD limit).

See, at that point you aren't arguing the rules - you are throwing up your hands and writing a new spell. That's fine if you want to do that - but this argument started because you claimed that you had found something that "invalidates" something I said as regards the rules as written.

That's not what you did. What you found was that you had house rules that wouldn't have allowed a particular combination off the cheese thread. That's not particularly surprising or note worthy, and certainly doesn't invalidate the original thought experiment.

In Dungeons and Dragons, getting "entangled" (a condition that lowers your Dexterity by four) doesn't negate being "paralyzed" (a condition which reduces your Dexterity to zero). In Dungeons and Dragons, a character blessed by the Platinum Dragon to inflict extra damage against Red Dragons inflicts extra damage against Half-Fiend Red Dragons as well as Half-Red Dragon Mariliths.

It's OK if you want to play by a ruling which is inconsistent with the way the rest of the game works for the purposes of having it make more sense to you and your players - but don't insult our intelligence by claiming that things which make sense to you are necessarily what the rules actually say.

-Username17

[Jonathan_Drain]

When it says that you can turn into a Dragon, that doesn't mean "subject to the restrictions of Alter Self" - it means that you can turn into a frickin Dragon. Any Dragon at all ... At that point, any and all restrictions of Alter Self that would prevent you from turning into a Dragon are ignored.

Almost, but not quite.

The only restriction lifted by that clause is the one that you cannot become a Dragon. The restriction that you cannot become a template is not lifted by Polymorph at any point.

There is a subtle difference between "Dragon type is now allowable", and "Dragon type is now allowable, even if previous limitations unrelated to type need to be ignored".

Hence, half-dragon doesn't automatically get bumped to the front of the queue because it's Dragon. It gets to the door, and the bouncer turns it away because "Sorry, the boss said no templates allowed."

[Username17]

The only restriction lifted by that clause is the one that you cannot become a Dragon.

No, see, that's the inconsistent reading you've been throwing about. On closer examination, this doesn't work at all.

Why?

Because there is no clause that you cannot become a Dragon! There is a clause that you can only become a creature of your own type, which if you are not yourself a Dragon would prevent you from becoming one - but it is not a restriction that you "can't become a Dragon".

The allowance is "become a Dragon", not "become a creature of type Dragon disregarding the type restrictions of Alter Self."

See the difference?

It gets to the door, and the bouncer turns it away because "Sorry, the boss said no templates allowed."

The BOSS is Polymorph, not Alter Self. That's what the Primary Source rule means.

If the Boss was Alter Self, a halfling couldn't even turn into a Dragon. Despite the fact that Dragon is allowed, he could still only turn into a Humanoid. Alter Self is, however, not the boss.

-Username17

[Jonathan_Drain]

Because there is no clause that you cannot become a Dragon! There is a clause that you can only become a creature of your own type.

Let me rephrase that than.

Alter Self limits you to your own type. Polymorph changes this so that you may become your own type, or any of a number of types, including dragon.

In any case, the distinction is only relevant for a dragon type spellcaster. The restriction that you cannot become a template is still not lifted by Polymorph at any point.

The BOSS is Polymorph, not Alter Self.

In that case, Alter Self is the weak link in the boss' chain. This might be where the boss analogy falls apart. Polymorph's dragon type allowance does beat Alter Self's type limitation, but does not trump Alter Self's total ban on templates.

[Username17]

In that case, Alter Self is the weak link in the boss' chain. This might be where the boss analogy falls apart. Polymorph's dragon type allowance does beat Alter Self's type limitation, but does not trump Alter Self's total ban on templates.

What?

You mean like how the Hit Dice clause of Polymorph beats the fact that Polymorph Any Object never mentions hit dice even once? Which would make turning a shrew into a manticore impossible, on account of manticores have more hit dice than shrews. Which means that you are obviously right because at no time is transforming a shrew into a manticore used as an example of something that PAO can do...

Except that was just sarcasm. Not only does your Boss Analogy fall flat on its face when it meets up with the Primary Source rule - it is completely nonextensible to the next spell in the chain. Polymorph Any Object ignores the hit die limits of Polymorph, and it ignores the hit die limits of Alter Self. At no time are hit dice mentioned in that spell - and your methodology simply can't account for that fact at all.

---

What you seem to believe is that Alter Self to Polymorph is like a stream lined computer program which says:

Alter Self Allows access to forms with the following limitations:
1. Your type only.
2. No more hit dice than you have caster levels, to a maximum of 5.
3. No more than one size larger than yourself.
4. No templates.

Polymorph is just like Alter Self except:

Replace line 1. with "The subject's type, or Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Plant, or Vermin."
Replace line 2. with "No more hit dice than you have caster levels, or the subject has hit dice (whichever is less), to a maximum of 15."
Replace line 3. with "No smaller than fine."

And that would work. But it is not what it says, god damn it!

What it says is:

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature.

Which means that any restriction on Alter Self which would prevent you from transforming the willing subject into another form of living creature is negated. Then it starts heaping on the restrictions.

And this is the logic which allows Polymorph Any Object to function at all. So before you start another tiresome and incomprehensible tirade about how mentioning that you can't exceed 15 hit dice means that you can exceed 5 - I want you to use your "logic" to explain how you go about transforming a Shrew into a Manticore with Polymorph Any Object.

Go ahead. Read the spell. Now read Polymorph. Now explain to me, using exactly the same logic you use for Polymorph, how the Shrew to Manticore transformation works.

I'm waiting.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

1081370400[/unixtime]]

Again and still - that's the same argument.

That's because there is only one single argument on each side of the "are templates polymorph-legal question?"

Yea: "As, Alter Self, except"

Nay: "As Alter Self, except"

There's really nothing more to say on either side of that one.

Whichever one you pick, you have further issues with your pick and Polymorph is still all kinds of frelled - which I suspect is because of D.W.I.F.A.G.*


* Designer Was, In Fact, A Goldfish.

[Draco_Argentum]

DWIFAG

[fbmf]

1081408899[/unixtime]]DWI[EDITED]

I don't know if it was intentional or not, but that's funny.

Game On,
fbmf

[Jonathan_Drain]

With regards Polymorph Any Object's lack of a size limitation override, t'is a very good point. Polymorph Any Object fails to explicitly state that it allows forms larger than one-size-larger, and only states it by inference (the examples it gives include shrew-to-manticore and pebble-to-human). Purely by way of logic it is not allowed, but by all common sense it is.

My point is that nothing in Polymorph allows removal of the template limitation, even by inference. In the case of the other limitations, the type allowance change is explicitly defined, while the HD limit and size limit are at worst implicitly redefined. Since it says absolutely nothing about templates, not even implicitly, one would assume that this is no more redefined than Alter Self's limit that your items meld into your new form.

You appear to be of the argument that allowing Dragon form trumps the ban on half-dragon which is derived from the Alter Self ban templates, for the reason that anything defined in Polymorph automatically trumps anything in Alter Self due to this "primary source" rule, no matter what. On this stance, which you appear to have taken very firmly, I cannot argue with you, and we must agree to disagree on this point, at least until such times as an FAQ, errata or reprint clarifies it in one direction or another.

[Username17]

Purely by way of logic it is not allowed, but by all common sense it is.

Logic will allow it.

Your logic won't.

Which means that your logic is wrong, and you need to get different logic.

The logic that works is that the statement "except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature." overrides any thing in previous spells which would prevent you from changing the subject into "another form of living creature".

Since it says absolutely nothing about templates, not even implicitly, one would assume that this is no more redefined than Alter Self's limit that your items meld into your new form.

Wrong.

Alter Self's rule that items meld into your form if the new form cannot use equipment is not something which would restrict you from transforming the willing subject into "another form of living creature" - the size and template restrictions are.

Polymorph doesn't have rules as to what happens to items you carry. It does have rules on what you can turn into. So Alter Self's rules on your equipment stay, and Alter Self's rules on what you can turn into are out the door.

That is logic. It's real logic that really works. And it works for Polymorph, and it works for Polymorph Any Object. It's not what you want it to say - but I honestly don't care.

If you want some actual open questions, try:

* What happens to your hit points when you Polymorph into a creatre with a different Con Score?

* When you Polymorph into a creature with a poisonous stinger, what happens if you jab that stinger into some fool you don't like?

* When you Polymorph into a creature with natural weapons, what happens when you attempt to fight with the natural weapons? What happens when you use the natural weapons and a sword?

Those are serious questions. And unlike the inheritance of the template restriction - those are not actually parseable from the spell chain.

You appear to be of the argument that allowing Dragon form trumps the ban on half-dragon which is derived from the Alter Self ban templates, for the reason that anything defined in Polymorph automatically trumps anything in Alter Self due to this "primary source" rule, no matter what.

It's before that even. It doesn't say "except as follows" - it says "except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature." The exception allows any living creature, which would necessarily include templated creatures, very large creatures, and creatures of a type other than yours. Then it introduces its own set of restrictions which don't have a damned thing to do with the restrictions of Alter Self.

Primary Source wins. That's not negotiable.

-Username17

[Jonathan_Drain]

Ah, I see your point.

Well, agree to disagree, I say, as neither of us are likely to convince each other any time soon.

(I still think half-elemental is an outsider and not an elemental, though.

[Username17]

I still think half-elemental is an outsider and not an elemental

Then you've got an awful lot of work to do trying to explain how the Drow Hunting ability works at all.

Before I can even see your point, you're going to have to come up with a method to make your view point:

1> Allow Polymorph Any Object to function as per its examples.

2> Allow the Drow Hunter ability to allow you to hunt Drow, while simultaneously allow Favored Enemy: Elf to allow you to hunt Drow.

Right now, your point of view does neither and cannot be taken seriously.

-Username17

[Jonathan_Drain]

I'm not familiar with this Drow Hunter ability.

[Username17]

Sorry, it's called the "Drowbasher" ability. The Hammer of Moradin has it. The "Drow Hunter" ability is a similar idea, but comes from Dragon Magazine and obviously does not count.

OK, here's where we stand:

You don't like my model. That's not surprising, I don't really like my model either. But my model does fit the data. So while it may be wrong, it might be right as well. As of now, it's the best fit for the data I know of.

In order to be a plausible model, you have to explain:

* "Drowbasher" allows a character to inflict extra damage on Drow.

* "Favored Enemy: Elf" allows a character to inflict extra damage on Drow.

* "Polymorph" does not explicitly state that you can have more than 5 hit dice on your new form, nor does it make any mention of tying the size of the new form to the size of the subject, instead of you (the caster).

* "Polymorph Any Object" does not explicitly mention size or hit dice at all.

* "Polymorph Any Object" can transform a Shrew (dimminutive, 1/16th of a Hit Die) into a Manticore (Large, 6 Hit Dice).

* The exception clause of both "Polymorph" and "Polymorph Any Object" are stated in terms of allowing the transformation into "a creature" - not in terms of any specific restrictions.

---

So that's what you have to be able to explain, at the very minimum. My proposed model is unsatisfactory on many levels, but it does successfully explain all of that.

Your model does not.

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

1081431664[/unixtime]]
I don't know if it was intentional or not, but that's funny.

Now I know why Josh had the dots in there.

[RandomCasualty]

PAO is a hopeless cause IMO.

The spell hardly changed at all since 3.0 and hardly changed from 2E to 3.0, aside from just incorporating the new polymorph rules.

I honestly believe the designers looked at the spell and just said, "this one is too much of a headache... screw it." It's fairly evident given the fact that the 3.5 version still allows you to duplicate the effects of a spell that no longer exists. They knew polymorph was broken, it was just too much of a headache to fix so they didn't bother.