Polymorph and Friends

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Polymorph and Friends

Post by User3 »


[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
EDIT: I split this from the cheese updates thread because it was getting off topic. You guys are welcome to talk about this as long as you keep it civil. The last discussion about this got heated very quickly, so I will be keeping my eye on this thread.
[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]




I recently remembered something that invalidates the half-elemental celestial triceratops wildshaped druid. Even if Wild Shape (Elemental) extended to all creatures of the elemental type (which I doubt it does, but the rules are unclear)...

...According to both the Manual of the Planes and Dragon Magazine #321, half-elemental is an Outsider, not an Elemental.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

Actually, it says that you can turn into a Huge Fire Elemental.

A Half Fire Elemental Triceratops is size Huge.

The Fire Elemental is also size Huge.

The Half Fire Elemental Triceratops is named "Fire Elemental" to the same degree as the "Fire Elemental" is. So if you believe that elemental Wildshape is restricted by name - then the Half Fire Elemental template is good to go. It changes your name to "Fire Elemental".

If you believe that Wildshape is restricted to type, then the "Fire Element Creature" template is the one you want, because it changes your type to "Elemental (Fire)".

Actually, it doesn't list either limitation, and instead says that you can turn into anything which is a Fire Elemental - which would include everything named Fire Elemental and everything of type Elemental with the Fire Subtype.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by User3 »

I think you're reading too much into the rules to say that a Fire Elemental is anything but the specific creature named as Fire Elemental in the Monster Manual. I'll ignore this, however, as it isn't my point.

A half-elemental isn't an elemental, period. It's a HALF-elemental, of the type outsider. The only two ways to understand the term "elemental" are "called elemental" (as a fire elemental, earth elemental, water elemental or air elemental) or of the type "elemental" (such as the magmin). "It's got it in the name" is no more rulesworthy than if I were to claim I was not a person, but a drain.

In addition, Wild Shape is as the Polymorph spell which in turn is as the Alter Self spell, which specifically states "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype."

A creature with the "fire element" template, however, is indeed of the "elemental" type.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

John, a Wild Elf is still an Elf. He gets hurt by Elf Slaying weapons.

If a creature's name contains the word, then something which references the word references the creature.

That's why a Sun Elf is still an Elf.


In addition, Wild Shape is as the Polymorph spell which in turn is as the Alter Self spell, which specifically states "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype."


This line of argumentation is retarded.

First of all, while Alter Self can't take a templated form - Polymorph can. It's a restriction on the forms allowable with Alter Self and it goes out the frickin window the instant Polymorph redefines what you can turn into.

Alter Self has a set of types (yours only), sizes (yours or smaller), hit dice (yours or five, whichever is less), and templates (none allowed) that it can choose from.

Polymorph has its own set of types, sizes, hit dice, and templates that it can choose from. The fact that it doesn't list any limitations on the sizes and templates doesn't mean that it still has Alter Self's - it means that it doesn't have any. 3.5 Material is out there extolling the virtues of transforming into Giants with Polymorph, which is unsurprising because Giant is one of the specifically allowed types. These creatures universally do not fall within the size limits of Alter Self. But that's OK - because Polymorph does not have Alter Self's Size limits.

And by exactly the same logic and for exactly the same reason - Polymorph doesn't have Alter Self's limitation on Templates either.

Which means that Wildshape doesn't have that restriction.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by User3 »

Then are half-elves elves, and thus immune to sleep effects? Are half-fire-elementals fire elementals, and thus immune to critical hits as all elementals are? Perhaps in 3.0, the Displacer Beast was an available form with Beast Wild Shape epic feat because, look, it's got "Beast" right in the name?

The fact that it doesn't list any limitations on the sizes and templates doesn't mean that it still has Alter Self's - it means that it doesn't have any.


I guess a virus must have inserted the words "This spell functions like alter self, except..." into my copy of the System Reference Documents, then. I bow down to your clearly superior knowledge of the rules, and crown you King of the Internet!

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

Then are half-elves elves, and thus immune to sleep effects?

Yes.

Was that supposed to be a trivial example? Perhaps disproving my claims by the simple absurdity of it all? Because Half Elves are immune to sleep effects. It's right under the fact that Half Elves have a land speed of 30 feet. All you are doing is proving my case.

I guess a virus must have inserted the words "This spell functions like alter self, except..." into my copy of the System Reference Documents, then. I bow down to your clearly superior knowledge of the rules, and crown you King of the Internet!


Your sarcasm is unwarranted. The key word right there is "except".

When it says that you can transform into a Giant, then that means that you can turn into a Giant. Period. When Alter Self has a detail that would prevent you from turning into a Giant, it is overridden by the fact that Polymorph can turn you into a Giant.

So the Alter Self's size restriction is meaningless. Its template restriction is meaningless. Its type restriction is meaningless. As soon as a form meets the requirements of Polymorph it can be transformed into - and if one of Alter Self's myriad restrictions would prevent it then you can still turn into it - because the exception is that you can turn into the things that Polymorph says you can turn into.

Which includes Fire Giants, Dragons, and Half-Dragon Fire Giants. None of which are allowed by Alter Self but which are covered by Polymorph because of the magical word "except".

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by User3 »

Hmmm....

JD called this thread to my attention, and I gotta say, even thought we do have our disagreements, I definitely have to side on him with this one.

Frank: maybe you should reconsider the way you think of how these things apparently work?

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

Frank: maybe you should reconsider the way you think of how these things apparently work?


I always reconsider the way I "think things work". Otherwise, I wouldn't have any confidence in them.

If Polymorph was unable to over write the restrictions on Alter Self, it wouldn't be able to do anything at all.

Duh.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by User3 »

Odd, where'd my reply go...

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by User3 »

Frank wrote:The key word right there is "except".

When it says that you can transform into a Giant, then that means that you can turn into a Giant. Period. When Alter Self has a detail that would prevent you from turning into a Giant, it is overridden by the fact that Polymorph can turn you into a Giant.

So the Alter Self's size restriction is meaningless. Its template restriction is meaningless. Its type restriction is meaningless. As soon as a form meets the requirements of Polymorph it can be transformed into - and if one of Alter Self's myriad restrictions would prevent it then you can still turn into it - because the exception is that you can turn into the things that Polymorph says you can turn into.

Which includes Fire Giants, Dragons, and Half-Dragon Fire Giants. None of which are allowed by Alter Self but which are covered by Polymorph because of the magical word "except".


hi. new person here. :) i'm just curious ... is this quote from the SRD - "This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. " - what makes the Polymorph spell not have to follow any of the restriction parameters of Alter Self? Specifically, that one word - "except" - gives creative license to apply templates to the form assumed? If so, that makes Polymorph absolutely nutso is regards to being a *power spell*. Especially if you use the template stacking rules in Savage Species.

Just how abusive can templates be with Polymorph? It makes me want to pull all my books out and go nuts with template stacking. :jawdrop:
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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by User3 »

It seems I picked a bad example with half-elves. Perhaps I should have said, are Drow suddenly not elves, because they do not have "elf" in their name?

I notice that you still have not rebuked my other suggestions, which is, "Are half-fire-elementals fire elementals, and thus immune to critical hits as all elementals are? Perhaps in 3.0, the Displacer Beast was an available form with Beast Wild Shape epic feat because, look, it's got "Beast" right in the name?"


Which includes Fire Giants, Dragons, and Half-Dragon Fire Giants. None of which are allowed by Alter Self but which are covered by Polymorph because of the magical word "except".


Sure, you can use Polymorph to turn into a Large creature, a Giant type creature or Dragon type. You can indeed become a Fire Giant. However, half-dragon anything is right out.

However, Polymorph's description does not refer to templates, and as such, it inherits the property from Alter Self that it cannot be used to assume the form of a templated creature. "I can turn into a dragon" doesn't let you become a half-dragon, because it doesn't override the template restriction in any way.
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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

Perhaps I should have said, are Drow suddenly not elves, because they do not have "elf" in their name?


They are elves because they got plastered with the subtype "(elf)". This is the way the game allows creatures which have a name change (such as the Drow) to retain their important game functions. You become an Elf because you are named "Elf" or because you are subtyped "Elf". You don't need both, either one will do.

This isn't complicated.

Are half-fire-elementals fire elementals, and thus immune to critical hits as all elementals are?


Unclear, but probably not. In 3rd edition the answer was a simple no, because the Elemental Abilties were restricted to creatures whose type was Elemental. The abilities only appeared in creature abilities by type.

In 3.5, the creatures with the Elemental Type have "Elemental Traits" listed in their special qualities - so one would be tempted to say that only creatures which have that ability have those rules - but this is not consistently applied, so a lot of creatures would be losing their type abilities if we held them to that.

Of more import is the fact that the abilities are only granted to "Elemental Type" creatures, not "Elementals" in general. That is to say, you can be an "Elemental" all day - you still aren't getting those abiltiies unless that's your type. The rules are extremely vague at best as to what is supposed to happen when you have the "Augmented Elemental Subtype" - but seem pretty clear for the rest.

Perhaps in 3.0, the Displacer Beast was an available form with Beast Wild Shape epic feat because, look, it's got "Beast" right in the name?"


Absolutely, but why would you bother? You had to be 21st level, and it just turned you into a Displacer Beast with no magical powers. Why would you do that?

Sure, you can use Polymorph to turn into a Large creature, a Giant type creature or Dragon type. You can indeed become a Fire Giant. However, half-dragon anything is right out.


That's completely nonsensical. Alter Self forbids transforming into a large creature, and Alter Self forbids transforming into a templated creature. The restrictions are not given different weight - they're both simply forbidden by the spell.

But it doesn't matter what Alter Self forbids or does not forbid. Really, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

You pick up Polymorph, which is the "Primary Source" for anything you want to do relating to casting "Polymorph". And you are a 10th level Wizard who wants to turn into a Half-Dragon Hill Giant. That's a 9 Hit Die Large Dragon with a template on it.

So you check the Polymorph lists for whether you can turn into that or not. Polymorph allows you up to 10 hit dice in this circumstance. Polymorph allows you to become a Dragon form. Polymorph does not list any other special restrictions - so you are good to go. So having read Polymorph, by itself, it is undeniable that the Half Dragon Hill Giant is within the limits of what it can turn you into.

And now... we're done. Play time is over and this train doesn't make any more stops. The primary source has spoken, so if we find a secondary source that says we can't do it that's simply a contradiction which the Primary Source wins. So it makes no difference whether Alter Self would allow us to become a Half Dragon Hill Giant or not - because even if it says we can't do it, Polymorph said we could and Polymorph wins that argument automatically when you are casting Polymorph.

Now as it happens, Alter Self has a number of restrictions that would prevent us from becoming this creature, none of which are specifically addressed by Polymorph at all:

* Alter Self won't let us become a type other than our own - a restriction not specifically lifted by Polymorph.

* Alter Self won't let us become a Large Creature - a restriction not specifically lifted by Polymorph.

* Alter Self won't let us become a templated creature - a restriction not specifically lifted by Polymorph.

* Alter Self won't let us become a creature with more than 5 hit dice - a restriction not specifically lifted by Polymorph.

Any one of these would block the Half Dragon Hill Giant - and most of them would stop the regular Hill Giant as well. And none of them are specifically addressed by Polymorph at all.

And why? Because we aren't talking about a line-item over write. We are talking about a whole text priority check. If you find something which disagrees with the whole text of Polymorph in Alter Self - it doesn't apply. That's the only way we can apply it, because the restrictions and rules of Alter Self didn't come to us numbered, or even ordered.

The fact that Polymorph says you can become a Giant and doesn't say that you are limited by Size means that you can become a Giant. The fact that it doesn't say you are not limited by Size is irrelevent. Alter Self has a Size Restriction, but the fact that Polymorph doesn't say that it has one and does say that you can become things which include stepping outside the size restriction means that it doesn't have one.

That's why Polymorph Any Object doesn't have a type restriction, doesn't have a size restriction, and doesn't have a Hit Die restriction. Look at the little chart - shrew to Manticore violates all three strictures of Alter Self and we simply don't care.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by User3 »


* Alter Self won't let us become a type other than our own - a restriction not specifically lifted by Polymorph.
* Alter Self won't let us become a Large Creature - a restriction not specifically lifted by Polymorph.
* Alter Self won't let us become a templated creature - a restriction not specifically lifted by Polymorph.
* Alter Self won't let us become a creature with more than 5 hit dice - a restriction not specifically lifted by Polymorph.


Really? Superceding the first point:

SpellsP-R.rtf wrote:
The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.


Superceding the fourth:

SpellsP-R.rtf wrote:
The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.


I am baffled that Polymorph doesn't specify that it allows a size increase. *shrugs*

It doesn't say anything about templates, except that it the spell is based on Alter Self. "I can turn into dragons" doesn't supercede "I can't turn into a templated creature", just like a faster car isn't any faster than a slow car when neither has any fuel.

I still don't believe that it's okay to dump on a template, because it inherits this from Alter Self, and historically, gaining a template on a Polymorph Self has always been disallowed anyway for balance reasons. Why would anyone polymorph into an troll when they could become a half-fire-elemental half-air-elemental half-earth-elemental half-water-elemental half-fiend fiendish half-dragon vampire half-golem half-troll troll, or some equally nonsensical combination of templates?
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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

Neither of those points supercede anything, except by implication.

The fact that the new form can't have more than 15 hit dice does not supercede or negate the restriction that you can't have more than 5 hit dice. You could still have both restrictions.

But you don't.

It doesn't say anything about templates, except that it the spell is based on Alter Self. "I can turn into dragons" doesn't supercede "I can't turn into a templated creature", just like a faster car isn't any faster than a slow car when neither has any fuel.


I can turn into dragons includes the following creatures:

A Wyvern.

A Half-Dragon Lizardfolk.

A Great Wyrm Gold Dragon.

Polymorph says that you can't have more than 15 hit dice, so the Great Wyrm is right out. Alter Self says that you can't increase your size, so the Wyvern would be out; and that you can't become a templatted creature, so the Half-Dragon Lizardfolk would be out as well. But Alter Self loses to Polymorph when it comes to casting Polymorph.

Polymorph says that you can become a Wyvern or a Half-Dragon Lizardfolk. Alter Self says you can't - but Polymorph wins that argument because it is the Primary Source.

I still don't believe that it's okay to dump on a template, because it inherits this from Alter Self, and historically, gaining a template on a Polymorph Self has always been disallowed anyway for balance reasons.


That's a nonsensical argument and you know it. You are saying that the rules as written are broken, and are applying completely arbitrary restrictions on them to claim that the rules as written are not broken.

Basically, this is the Oberoni fallacy all over again. You can use rules other than the ones printed, so obviously the rules as written aren't broken.
:rolleyes:

Well, newsflash: Polymorph is compleely broken and doesn't work. It didn't work well in 3rd edition, and the 3.5 version works even less well. You can cast it, become an animal, and then cast Limited Wish to target yourself with an Awaken spell.

When you transform yourself into a Remorhazz, you gain the ability to inflict heat damage when you touch enemies (because that's a special attack), and do not gain the ability to be just as hot when enemies touch you (because that's a special quality).

Etc. etc.

Polymorph is broken, you can go around and change it so that it breaks your campaign less - but that in no way alters the degree to which it is all messed up as written. Yes you can become a templatted creature with Polymorph, and no - I don't give a damn whether you are willing to accept that fact or not.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Jonathan_Drain »

A new limit of 15HD suggests that the old limit of 5HD is superceded. It confuses me that there is an ability to become a Giant without the explicit mention of superceding the size rule, although "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine" might be considered to be this (meaning that if you found a 15HD Colossal creature somehow, it'd be fair game for polymorphing into).

However, no part of the Polymorph's spell description suggests superceding the template limitation it inherits from Alter Self. You can quote Polymorph as the "Primary Source", but "This spell functions as alter self, except..." is as much a part of the primary source as " The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types...".

That's a nonsensical argument and you know it.


THAT's a nonsensical argument. Why would I argue something that I knew made no sense? I am not saying that they wrote a broken rule (allowing templates) - I believe you can't polymorph into templates, remember? - nor am I citing "old versions never allowed it" as the rule which prevents it. What I am asking, is that why, when they disallowed templates in 3.0 for very good reasons (that is, because everyone would dump half-dragon onto everything for free), would they suddenly turn around in 3.5 and say "Oh, you can have any templates you like"? (And if I recall, you're the one who said Polymorph was broken.)

Tell me, then, what's stopping a 16th level druid from elemental wild shaping into a CR18 fire element Marilith with all the special abilities, and staying like that all day? What's to stop a sorcerer from casting Polymorph, and stacking three templates onto it - or even simply polymorphing into himself, but applying half-dragon, half-celestial and then half-air elemental?

At least we can both agree that the spell is somewhat poorly written.

(As a footnote, I should point out that as per the earlier discussion, a half-elemental is not an elemental and a displacer beast is not a beast, despite their names.)
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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

A new limit of 15HD suggests that the old limit of 5HD is superceded.


It implies that it shouldn't be there, or they wouldn't have bothered to tell you that there is a 15 hit die limit.

It does not, by itself, make the 5 hit die limit go away.

The only reason why the 5 hit die limit doesn't apply is because if the Polymorph wording says a form is available and the Alter Self wording says it is not - the Polymorph text wins because it is the primary source.

That's the only reason, it's sufficient, and it also means that you can exceed Alter Self's type, size, and template restrictions as well.

I am not saying that they wrote a broken rule (allowing templates) - I believe you can't polymorph into templates, remember? - nor am I citing "old versions never allowed it" as the rule which prevents it. What I am asking, is that why, when they disallowed templates in 3.0 for very good reasons (that is, because everyone would dump half-dragon onto everything for free), would they suddenly turn around in 3.5 and say "Oh, you can have any templates you like"? (And if I recall, you're the one who said Polymorph was broken.)


Why would they make Shapechange be able to use Supernatural Abilities, when in 3rd edition they were, for very good game balance reason, uncopyable under Core Rules.

Why would they do anything broken? Because the people who write these things are simply not all that smart. Shapechange in 3.5 gives you unlimited power in several extremely obvious ways, when it didn't before in 3rd edition.

That's not an obscure loophole or twisting the words or anything - the new text simply and explicitly states that you get everything from column A and column A happens to include recursive power loops if you happen to be a 17th level Wizard.

Saying "They wouldn't have written it that way, because it's broken!" is stupid talk. Seriously, they do stupid, broken things every single day. Your reading is not consistent, because it requires us to throw out restrictions and keep restrictions - not because the text is at all different - but simply because it "feels to you" like they should be kept or dropped.

Restrictions have to be treated the same. The Hit Die limit of PAO (none) gets treated exctly the same as the size limit of Polymorph (none), and that means that it is treated the same as the template restriction of Wildshape (none).

Hit dice is not a good way to attempt to limit polymorphing or conjuration - because as you've noticed - hit dice are not consistently matched to power. Just the fact that the Cow and the Leopard are the same hit dice should indicate that this system of balance is inherently broken.

If you spot weld things which seem "too broken" - you are going to end up with a system which is unplayable, and still broken. The only way you are ever going to fix Polymorph or Planar Binding is by going in from the ground up and writing something consistent and balanced.

I should point out that as per the earlier discussion, a half-elemental is not an elemental and a displacer beast is not a beast, despite their names.


That's horse shit.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Jonathan_Drain »

I should point out that as per the earlier discussion, a half-elemental is not an elemental and a displacer beast is not a beast, despite their names.

That's horse shit.


How so? Half-elemental is Outsider, displacer beast is a Magical Beast (even in 3.0 when we still had the plain "beast" type).
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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Polymorph doesn't say anything yea or nay about Templates, you've admitted this yourself, Frank. Polymorph's silence on the matter means that the subject of Templates is not covered under the exception clause that shows how Polymorph works differently from Alter Self. This means that you cannot polymorph into a templated creature.

And why in perdition are you citing designer intent in reference to this, Frank? ("Why would they do anything broken? Because the people who write these things are simply not all that smart. Shapechange in 3.5 gives you unlimited power in several extremely obvious ways, when it didn't before in 3rd edition"). You regularly rail against designer intent in favor of a literal reading of the rules as they are presented in the books.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Thoth_Amon »

It all boils down to why my next fighter is going to be named "You". I am sick of all these clerics buffing themselves. And if their spells only work on "you," so be it. If you can't beat em join em.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

Polymorph doesn't say anything yea or nay about Templates, you've admitted this yourself, Frank. Polymorph's silence on the matter means that the subject of Templates is not covered under the exception clause that shows how Polymorph works differently from Alter Self. This means that you cannot polymorph into a templated creature.


This attempt at logic would make us unable to polymorph into anything with more than 5 hit dice.

Polymorph says:

SRD wrote:The assumed form can't have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject's Hit Dice, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.


But it doesn't say yeah or nay on the subject of whether you can have a form with more than five hit dice.

So if you can't turn into a Half-Dragon Ogre, you obviously can't turn into a Dire Wolf either. Silence either means that only Polymorph's restrictions apply, or it means that you apply both Polymorph and Alter Self's restrictions together.

You can't have it both ways.

And why in perdition are you citing designer intent in reference to this, Frank?


The hell are you talking about? I didn't cite designer intent, I made fun of somebody for citing designer intent. I do that all the time. The claim that the designers obviously meant to make it not broken is ludicrous because they go far out of their way to break things for no good reason all the time.

How so?


Because you can be two things.

Consider:

Drow
Medium Humanoid (Elf)


The Drow is named "Drow", and is thus a "Drow" for purposes of people who have the "Drow Hunter" ability. The Drow is size "Medium" and is thus "Medium or Smaller" and can be devoured by Huge Creatures with the "Swallow Whole" ability. The Drow is type "Humanoid" and is affected by "Hold Person", or any other ability which only affects a "Humanoid". Finally, the Drow is subtype "Elf" and is thus an "Elf" for the purposes of creatures with the "Favored Enemy: Elves" ability.

Some things specify that they only trigger on the "Elemental Type" (for instance: the immunity to critical hits you get for being "Elemental Type" - in which case it only triggers if you have the word "Elemental" in your type line (the rules are unclear in 3.5 as to whether this would trigger if you happen to have the "Augmented Elemental" subtype - there is an open question as to whether or not a 3.5 Half Fire Elemental Fire Elemental is actually immune to critical hits or not). But many other effects simply state "Elemental" - in which case the Elemental Designator can appear anywhere in the name, type, or subtype.

Which is why both the Drow Hunter ability and the Favored Enemy: Elf ability can both recognize the Drow. The abilities don't specify where the designator has to be, so they'll find it whichever place it is. Similarly, Wildshape does not specify "type elemental" - it just says "elemental" - so any match on that designator will do.

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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1081302727[/unixtime]]
Polymorph doesn't say anything yea or nay about Templates, you've admitted this yourself, Frank. Polymorph's silence on the matter means that the subject of Templates is not covered under the exception clause that shows how Polymorph works differently from Alter Self. This means that you cannot polymorph into a templated creature.


This attempt at logic would make us unable to polymorph into anything with more than 5 hit dice.

Polymorph says:

SRD wrote:The assumed form can't have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject's Hit Dice, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.


But it doesn't say yeah or nay on the subject of whether you can have a form with more than five hit dice.

So if you can't turn into a Half-Dragon Ogre, you obviously can't turn into a Dire Wolf either. Silence either means that only Polymorph's restrictions apply, or it means that you apply both Polymorph and Alter Self's restrictions together.

You can't have it both ways.


Apples and Oranges, quit pretending you don't know it. There is an explicitly stated new limit of 15 hit die, but there is nothing stating that you can have a template when polymorphing. They don't need to explicitly say that you can't have a template because that's what the exception clause is there for. If your reading is right, then no longer is the exeption clause a waste of ink, then there's also nothing keeping us from going back to the old chestnut that reminds us that the "dead" status condition doesn't do a god-blessed thing.

-Desdan
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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Username17 »

Right... you have no clue as to what you are talking about, do you?

Your entire reading of these rules here is completely inconsistent and relies upon the hand waiving position of "because I said so". You didn't even write the document - your "say-so" is worthless.

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Crissa
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Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

Post by Crissa »

I think this conversation really won't be solved without really breaking it down. I know you all know how dependencies work, and we know the writers really didn't. So intent is pretty much out the window.

What we have is a problem with 'Polymorph Any Object is like Polymorph is like Alter Self' plus their wordings are inconsistent with their examples...

If you want to get into dependency, we should create lists of what they do specify - and note which are implied and which are explicit. For instance, Size is implied for Polymorph, whereas Size is explicit for Alter Self. Stat changes are explicit in Polymorph, but are implied in Polymorph Any Object... If you would each write out a set of properties for each as you read it, then we can continue.

Then maybe we can get the wording argument out of the way, and get down to why do any of these restrictions exist outside of setting rules.

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Re: Polymorph and Friends

Post by RandomCasualty »

There are three different kinds of "fire elemental".

-Any creature of type elemental (fire)
-Any creature that is a fire elemental of some kind, including half fire elementals.
-The specific creature "fire elemental" listed on MM (3.5) p. 99

Now, based on the language, it's hard to say exactly which of these they're talking about.

For game balance reasons I'd say it'd have to be the last one.
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Re: Polymorph and Friends

Post by Username17 »


For game balance reasons I'd say it'd have to be the last one.


But it is heavily implied to be one of the other two - because you gain the Spell-like abilties of the new form. The Fire Elemental from page 39 doesn't have any Spell-like abilities.

In fact, none of the creatures from the monster entry in the 3.5 Monster Manual called "Elemental" have any Spell-like abilties.

So what earthly purpose could the ability to gain spell-like abilties have, save that you used one of the other definitions of Elemental? It's not a rules argument exactly, the rules argument is that generally an ability which targets a "foozle" targets "any creature which is a foozle of some kind" - hence Drow getting smacked by Hold Person, Drow Hunting, and Favored Enemy: Elf (often as not from the same character).

It's a flavor argument - like the argument that there's no point in having a restriction to no more than 15 hit dice unless you've already removed the 5 hit die limit. But it is just as strong.

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