In playing a 'Supplemented' D&D game: Old Feats?

[Judging__Eagle]

In a D&D game using say... all of Frank and Kieth's supplements (really, you should use them all at once); where do existing old-style feats like Skill Focus; Darkstalker, etc. fit in?

Could feats like Combat School be used as a pre-req for feats like Supreme Weapon Mastery (or whatever the feat that lets you apply your WF, WS, GWF, GWS feats to all weapons of the same damage type)?

I'm assuming yes since you get roughly the same benefits (and well, really you get all of those feats at lvl 1; at a slightly reduced value overall of course, but 1 point less is hardly noticable).

Should all 'old' style feats be relegated to something like 1 old feat per level. With the new feats (that are actually worth something) taking up the 1/3 levels Feat slots?

Al la Endovior's take on Character options?

Of course, any old-feat that has been replaced by newly supplemented rules or feats (see Expertise, Power Attack, Whirlwind and Mounted Combat) can't be taken in that manner (or rather shouldn't since they've been replaced).

Of course some things would have to be watched out for; Multiweapon fighting should probably be reigned in and exluded; but that's just my opinion.

So, should old style feats be handed out every level?

Thereby removing pressure on people to select not only the best of the new feats, but the best of the old ones as well? B/c let's face it, with feats like Insightful Strike; wis-based casters will be even less likely to grab a craft feat.

Just an idea.

I'm guessing that Book of Gears will re-do the way that item creation is approached, but for now having the wizard and cleric able to pick up the 'sub-par' non metamagic or item crafing feats (spell focus; skill focus, brew potion, craft ring etc.) might make the spellcasting and crafting more of their specialty (seeing as how other more distinct combat roles have been reclaimed by the Barbarian, Knight, Monk and Fighter).

[Draco_Argentum]

How about just picking group of five old feats, gluing them together and calling them a new feat?

[Judging__Eagle]

ROFL.

Yeah, I guess that could work.

[User3]

"Craft Everything" would almost be good enough to be a feat. Honestly, I'd probably just give it out for free, the way everyone just gets Expertise and Power Attack.

[User3]

For skill feats and combat feats, I am excluding them and just substituting the close "new" feat

For metamagic fets, I am leaving it with just the old feats, though that is becoming a touch underpowered. So I might start "gluing" feat chains together, but i have to work out how.

[Catharz]

1171776735[/unixtime]]For skill feats and combat feats, I am excluding them and just substituting the close "new" feat

For metamagic feats, I am leaving it with just the old feats, though that is becoming a touch underpowered. So I might start "gluing" feat chains together, but i have to work out how.

You might consider making metamagic feats scaling in some cases. Extend/Persistant spell, for example, could be changed to a +2 levels/+1 'duration level.' This was how it was going to appear in 3.5 until someone in their infinite wisdom decided that it would be more balanced at +6/24 hours.

Bringing back metamagic stacking might work as well, given that 3.5 nerfed spelldancing both ways. Assuming you're not going to allow Empowered Empowered Empowered Awaken Construct or Shivering Touch spells, that is Specific metamagic stacking would be even safer.

Another suggestion (which I don't fully endorse) is shifting all metamagic feats to being 'sudden.'

[User3]

You could always make each metamagic feat the equivalent of the current normal + sudden versions: one free use, and as many additional uses as you want to pay for.

[Judging__Eagle]

You know....

I never thought of empowering or maximizing an Awaken spell.

Heh, hehe, heheheh; I'm gonna make an army of squirrel archivists to go along with my bonsai tree choir that rides in flying teacups.

It'll be cool.

[Username17]

The feat standard of 3.5 is extremely confused, and in general not good. The +1 DC version of Spell Focus, for example, is pretty insulting.

When we were putting together the feat revisions, we put out a poll as to whether people wanted more out of their feats or enough feats that it would actually matter. The response of wanting less feats that were better was pretty overwhelming.

---

So when you pull out feats from established 3.5 sources... they suck. Some of them don't do anything (Eagle Claw Attack, See the Unseen).

The exchange rate of 5 feats like "mobility" to one feat that you give a damn about is not unusual or strange. Indeed, a feat from Races of War is worth approximately one feat chain.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

How would the feats from, say, the Tome of Fiends or Necromancy stack up agianst the Races of War feats? The abilities they hand out are generally worthwhile, but with the paradigm shifted to scaling feats, what should we do with them? Perhaps break the feats that have a level requirement (like Wings of Evil) into a scaling feat available at level one, like, say...

Wings of Evil [Fiend]
You have some sort of wings growing out of your back or arms or whatever. This feat scales with character level.
Benefit: Your wings allow you to float down to the ground unharmed. You may float down to the ground at a speed of 60 feet per round, and take no damage from the fall. You may also move up to 30 feet per round laterally while falling.
Level 1: You gain a +3 bonus on Balance checks, and a +4 bonus to resist Trip attempts.
Level 6: You can fly at a speed of twice your base movement speed with Good manuverability.
Level 11: Your fly speed increases to thrice your base movement speed.
Level 16: Your manuverability increases to perfect.

I'm not so sure about the first level ability, but the base feat doesn't give you anything until 6th level so I don't really care.

[Catharz]

1171836277[/unixtime]]How would the feats from, say, the Tome of Fiends or Necromancy stack up agianst the Races of War feats? The abilities they hand out are generally worthwhile, but with the paradigm shifted to scaling feats, what should we do with them? Perhaps break the feats that have a level requirement (like Wings of Evil) into a scaling feat available at level one, like, say...

Wings of Evil [Fiend]
You have some sort of wings growing out of your back or arms or whatever. This feat scales with character level.
Benefit: Your wings allow you to float down to the ground unharmed. You may float down to the ground at a speed of 60 feet per round, and take no damage from the fall. You may also move up to 30 feet per round laterally while falling.
Level 1: You gain a +3 bonus on Balance checks, and a +4 bonus to resist Trip attempts.
Level 6: You can fly at a speed of twice your base movement speed with Good manuverability.
Level 11: Your fly speed increases to thrice your base movement speed.
Level 16: Your manuverability increases to perfect.

I'm not so sure about the first level ability, but the base feat doesn't give you anything until 6th level so I don't really care.

[Fiend] feats and the like give the benefit of a fairly powerful ability without all the complexity that comes with a [Skill] or [Combat] feat. I think that's a good thing.

[Username17]

The [Fiend] feats have a Level minimum, the [Necromantic] feats have a level dependent effect, and the [Combat] feats scale by BAB.

The goal of every version of course, is to provide characters with level appropriate ablities. And for the most part, this succeeds well enough.

To an extent it falls down when characters invest in [Fiend] or [Undead] feats that were available some number of levels ago - it produces an effect very much like when a player takes one of his new known spells for a lower level spell.

Not sure what to do about either event.

-Username17

[User3]

My intuition is too look at what you're getting. Remember wizards already have full spellcasting, so it doesn't hurt them as much to burn a feat on one ability.

Further, some metamagic (or metamagic-like) feats are powerful enough as is. Natural spell is still worth using a feat on, even with RoW feats. Quicken is still worth a feat.

Now, Silent/Still/Eschew could probably be made into a spellcraft [skill] feat. Something like:

Intuitive Spellcasting [Skill]
Whenever you prepare or spontaneously cast a spell, you may make it a silenced spell by increasing the spell slot by at least 1.
4 ranks: You may alternately make the spell still by increasing the spell slot by at least 1. You may apply both silent and still by increasing the spell slot at least 2.
9 ranks: You may ignore inexpensive material components as per Eschew Materials.
14 ranks: Use of one of silent or still spell abilities (your choice) requires no increase in spell slot.
19 ranks: Neither silent nor still spell requires an increase in spell slot.

[Catharz]

1171857486[/unixtime]]My intuition is too look at what you're getting. Remember wizards already have full spellcasting, so it doesn't hurt them as much to burn a feat on one ability.

Further, some metamagic (or metamagic-like) feats are powerful enough as is. Natural spell is still worth using a feat on, even with RoW feats. Quicken is still worth a feat.

Now, Silent/Still/Eschew could probably be made into a spellcraft [skill] feat. Something like:

Intuitive Spellcasting [Skill]
Whenever you prepare or spontaneously cast a spell, you may make it a silenced spell by increasing the spell slot by at least 1.
4 ranks: You may alternately make the spell still by increasing the spell slot by at least 1. You may apply both silent and still by increasing the spell slot at least 2.
9 ranks: You may ignore inexpensive material components as per Eschew Materials.
14 ranks: Use of one of silent or still spell abilities (your choice) requires no increase in spell slot.
19 ranks: Neither silent nor still spell requires an increase in spell slot.

It's probably balanced to have Still or Silent spell just make all of a character's spells Still or Silent.

[Edit]Remember that, as a character's ranks in spellcraft go up, his spell slots go up as well. Getting freely Stilled 6th level spells at character level 11 is no more or less powerful, relatively, than getting freely Stilled 1st level spells at character level 1.[/Edit]

[User3]

1171860456[/unixtime]]

1171857486[/unixtime]]My intuition is too look at what you're getting. Remember wizards already have full spellcasting, so it doesn't hurt them as much to burn a feat on one ability.

Further, some metamagic (or metamagic-like) feats are powerful enough as is. Natural spell is still worth using a feat on, even with RoW feats. Quicken is still worth a feat.

Now, Silent/Still/Eschew could probably be made into a spellcraft [skill] feat. Something like:

Intuitive Spellcasting [Skill]
Whenever you prepare or spontaneously cast a spell, you may make it a silenced spell by increasing the spell slot by at least 1.
4 ranks: You may alternately make the spell still by increasing the spell slot by at least 1. You may apply both silent and still by increasing the spell slot at least 2.
9 ranks: You may ignore inexpensive material components as per Eschew Materials.
14 ranks: Use of one of silent or still spell abilities (your choice) requires no increase in spell slot.
19 ranks: Neither silent nor still spell requires an increase in spell slot.

It's probably balanced to have Still or Silent spell just make all of a character's spells Still or Silent.

[Edit]Remember that, as a character's ranks in spellcraft go up, his spell slots go up as well. Getting freely Stilled 6th level spells at character level 11 is no more or less powerful, relatively, than getting freely Stilled 1st level spells at character level 1.[/Edit]

Well, I don't disagree with you...

Here's what I was thinking: (1) What else do you give for the last two places? (2) While its no more powerful, it is a progression of ability. The wizard or sorceror gets better at making his spells still or silent. (3) Resource control is more interesting at low levels because you have few enough resources that making the decision to still or not requires thinking. At higher levels most of the stuff you want still or silent is low enough level that you don't really care about the slots and its a no-brainer, so thats a good time to just handwave it all away.

I guess if you have good ideas for the last two slots, I really don't care.