It's good to be a Wizard

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Username17
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It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Username17 »

A player of mine just pointed out:

The DC for a Wizard to learn a spell from a scroll or another wizard's spellbook is defined.

In order to do so, the Wizard must first decipher the scroll.

Wizards cannot cast spells from Divine Scrolls. They can, however, decipher a Divine scroll.

Flipping through the books, I can't find a single rule in 3.5 which prevents a Wizard from just popping open a Druid Scroll and learning a Druid spell.

I can't find anything that would even suggest that it would be difficult for a Wizard to learn a spell off of a Bard or Naga's scroll of a spell that was not on the Wizard list normally.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Sma »

Well, it´s still a divine spell isn´t it ?
I reread the rules for copying spells into your book, and, as you say they don´t forbid that procedure. But IMHO the difference between arcane and divine spells is not only known to players but has in game reasons too. They have two different sources. So even if it was a spell known to both types of casters (e.g. spiderclimb) the wizard could´nt actually use the spell. He could transscribe it from a scroll into his book for research purposes, but it´d still be divine spell. Wizards cast arcane spells. Just because the spell is in his spellbook, dos not mean the wizard can cast it, else many first Level Wizards would be busily transscribing Meteor Swarms :)

So it´s possible to write divine spells into your spellbook, but of rather limited use.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Even if we made it so that wizards could cast every single spell at the exact same scheme clerics and druids do, how much would this unbalance the game?

Arcane spellcasting is generally inferior to divine one, unless you believe in really long-term buffs (nerfed heavily in 3.5E in both duration and extent), and the class features of the wizard are woefully unimpressive. But still.
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Username17 »

Well, it´s still a divine spell isn´t it ?


That would be even better. A wizard can prepare any spell he knows in his spell book, not any arcane spell he knows in his spell book. If for some reason it stayed Divine, the Wizard would cast it as a Divine spell - he's not actually forbidden to do that if for some reason he knew a Divine Spell as a Wizard spell.

There's no mention of it staying Divine. The Divine/Arcane divide is very important in some settings - but is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever in terms of game mechanics. Arcane and Divine spells can counter each other, and Clerics with the Fire Domain can activate Wall of Fire out of Wizard-made spellstoring items.

Even if we made it so that wizards could cast every single spell at the exact same scheme clerics and druids do, how much would this unbalance the game?


Not in any way I can see. Wizards learn and cast spells in a fundamentally inferior fashion, and get all other class related benefits in a worse manner as well.

The only tangible benefit to being a wizard is that theoretically you get better spells at any given level. Even allowing Clerics and Druids to cast some spells at the same level as Wizards can is a violation of the class balance as conceived. Allowing the Wizard to cast spells at the same level as Clerics and Druids across the board is in no way shape or form a violation of class balance mandates.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Oberoni »

Ok,99
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Sma »


Frank wrote:If for some reason it stayed Divine, the Wizard would cast it as a Divine spell - he's not actually forbidden to do that if for some reason he knew a Divine Spell as a Wizard spell.


I do not see why it suddenly should become Arcane. I can not find a passage explicitly forbidding Wizards to cast Divine spells, only one allowing them to cast Arcane ones. I guess the SRS not allowing them to cast divine scrolls somewhat supports this. But that´s circumstantial.

It seems it is back to vague wording by WotC and DM fiat. :)

I guess balancewise it would not hurt the Cleric if he lost exclusive access to Heal and consorts, but it would put a dent to the flavor of both respective classes.

Have fun,

Sma

PS: Now we only need a way to allow the cleric to cast wizard spells so we can d away with wizards ;p
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Username17 »

A Wizard casts arcane spells


It's pretty clear on that.

I guess balancewise it would not hurt the Cleric if he lost exclusive access to Heal and consorts, but it would put a dent to the flavor of both respective classes.


The Cleric doesn't have exclusive access to healing by a long shot. The most efficient way to heal the party, in fact the only effoicient way to hela the party from 2nd to 10th level (which compromises the entire scope of many games) is by using Wands of Cure Light Wounds - which are usable by Rangers in precisely the same manner as by Clerics.

The way 3rd edition mechanics work out, healing is now so small compared to damage and hit points that without a spell battery your healing is a joke - and with a spell battery you don't even need to be a spellcaster. A Ranger 2/Rogue 4 can't cast spells but can cure the whole party to the same degree as a Cleric can, near as makes no odds.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Maj »

I don't think it's fair to claim a separation of divine and arcane unless you also separate spellcraft into divine and arcane and the meshability of spells to deal with divine and arcane. In 3rd edition, a cleric can use his spellcraft check to figure out what spell a wizard is casting - which means that despite the source, the casting process can't be all that different.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by User3 »

Curing is a significant portion of the "wellness fixing" brought to a party by a Cleric ... although he also removes diseases, neutralizes poisons, restores lost levels/stat drains, and raises the dead. And that's where he is needed the most. So don't the Cleric out yet.

The Ranger or Rogue (with UMD) using Wands to cover all these contigencies will be hard pressed to do so financially.
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Not really. CLW wands cost 750, and are about all you need. It's not a significant expense for medium and high level parties. Cure disease is so rarely used, I don't even care. Poisons are so lame, I don't even care. Restoration is a little more difficult to cover, but it's still not that pricey.
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Maj »

Just to point out: healing spells can be arcane. I know the bard sucks, but take a look at his spell list:

Cure Light Wounds
Remove Fear
Cure Moderate Wounds
Cure Serious Wounds
Remove Curse
Break Enchantment
Cure Critical Wounds
Neutralize Poison


While certainly not all of a cleric's spells are on the bard's list, at least all of these have precedent for being both divine and arcane.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Username17 »

Don't forget your friendly neighborhood lizard casters.

Dragons and Nagas can cast a number of standardly Clerical spells out of Arcane Slots.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Sma »


I´ll happily concede that healing is not exclusive to Clerics, let alone Divine Casters. But the brunt of it tends to come from the clerics. That very well be a function of the campaigns I participate in so is wholly subjective. So much for my flavour argument :)

While using wands of CLW, make very nice addition to the casters healing, I do not feel that using them exclusively is the most effective way. While your at it you should consider using those Regenerate Light Wounds wands. At if your DM is using the version of the spell that gives Fast Healing.

I did not invent the division of Arcane and Divine though.

SRD Magic Overview wrote:Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source.


Why should Spellcraft be divided into two separate skills. If you want to recognize wich spell is being cast, you will have to learn a couple of spells twice. Spellcraft simply represents both kinds of knowledges. And why sould Arcane and Divine not mesh, it´s not as if there is some underlying physics that would forbid this. IMHO an Arcane Spiderclimb is an different beast from a Divine one. There is a siginificant enough overlap in the effect for them to have the same statblock and to be dispelled by each other, but they are powered by different things. If the Wizard in question happens to stumble upon a Divine Scroll with it he can write it in his spellbook, even understand the inner workings, but he still lacks access to the source of energy to cast it.

Sma



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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by User3 »

Sma wrote:If the Wizard in question happens to stumble upon a Divine Scroll with it he can write it in his spellbook, even understand the inner workings, but he still lacks access to the source of energy to cast it.
So? "...Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source..." The mechanics of the Wizard casting these divine spells are not prohibited in the RAW. And in fact, the Wizard is actually channelling the divine power mentioned in your quote because their is nothing but DM fiat preventing the use of the divine source to cast the spells. If it actually stated in the RAW that the divine source has the option of allowing the spell's divine energies to not be accessed, we would be talking a different story here.



Mechanically though,
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Username17 »

While your at it you should consider using those Regenerate Light Wounds wands


Generally not. Regenerate Light Wounds, as written, can only be cast before taking damage, and thus costs actions in combat which would better be spent doing basically anything else.

Remember, a RLWs spell, even if cast right before taking damage, heals less damage than a Barbarian or Ogre is handing out with a smack from their weapon. Combat healing is simply not an efficient use of your time. Not only does it not keep up with damage output from enemies, it doesn't make you win. You'd be better off doing something else that delayed or took out enemies, because that also has the effect of reducing the damage your side takes and advances your goals of winning the combat at the same time.

In order to be balanced against attacks and combat spells, combat healing would have to be bigger than other combat effects. And it's not. Generally, it is smaller. So combat healing is not worth the actions required to use it - so spells like Regenerate Light Wounds, which can normally only be cast in combat, are generally worthless.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by da_chicken »

That's why you just take remedy moderate wounds from Magic of Faerun. That actually grants normal fast healing, not the "remember to track when you take your damage" stupidity from MotW.

Of course, since MoF is older, and the spell duration is different....
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

I just had a wacky idea.

How about, instead of adding a capped caster-level to cure spells, how about you add the target's con modifier times the target's character level (possibly capped, possibly not) to the dice rolled.

Therefore, if someone were to cast a CLW on a constitiution 16, level three character, the character would heal 1d8+(3*3) points instead. This might actually reduce the spells' points of obsolesence some, and move some against the stupidity that says a given cure spell is actually more effective against a low con wizard than it is against a high-con barbarian. The downside is that it makes having a low con suck even more than it did before, especally if you decide not to set things up so that constituions below ten subtract hit points from cure spells.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Sma »

Re: RLW
What da chicken said. He Da Man ! :)
(And listen to me children. Use of third party reference (those crystalkeep tables for example) is no good when you´re trying to get the spellnames right.)

Guest:
You pretty much summed it up. There is no explicit rule regarding this. Neither forbidding nor allowing it. So we are basically down to interpretation and DM fiat. My interpreatation is that Arcane casters only have access to arcane sources. Yours is obviously different. Apart from me being alwas right There´s little we can do. ;)
One point comes to my mind, though. If a Wizard can actually cast Divine Spells, why should he bother to learn the Arcane versions for those which exist as both types, seeing as he could forego the chance for arcane spell failure, and load up on that fullplate & tower shield. (Quoth SRD:"A character who casts an arcane spell while wearing armor must usually make an arcane spell failure roll."). The penalties will not mean much since he goes mostly from missing to always missing.
With the right selection of spells, which would be easier now that the Wizard basically has all spells to choose from, he could get extra AC without sacrificing anything.
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Username17 »

My interpreatation is that Arcane casters only have access to arcane sources.


A Wizard who takes a level of Sacred Exorcist and gets a Prestige Domain gains new spells which they cast as Arcane. There is explicit precedent for this - they learn new spells from a Divine Source, and then cast them as Arcane Spells.

If a Wizard can actually cast Divine Spells, why should he bother to learn the Arcane versions for those which exist as both types, seeing as he could forego the chance for arcane spell failure, and load up on that fullplate & tower shield. (Quoth SRD:"A character who casts an arcane spell while wearing armor must usually make an arcane spell failure roll."). The penalties will not mean much since he goes mostly from missing to always missing.


You've just described one of the major problems with the Oriental Adventures class Shugenja. Since they have crap BAB and cast Divine Spells that can include lightning bolt - they have absolutely no incentive to not waddle in with Great Armor and a Tower Shield.

Armor Spell Failure should apply to all armor that you are not proficient with - it shouldn't be based on Divine/Arcane stupidity.

Of course, this thread is not especially about what the rules should say, but what they do say. And what they say is that Shugenja should laquer themselves because they don't give a damn about their mobility and care very much about pretecting themselves against edged weapons.

And the rules also say that when a Wizard gains a spell from a Divine Source it goes into his spells known and is cast as an Arcane Spell.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Sma »


Frank wrote:A Wizard who takes a level of Sacred Exorcist and gets a Prestige Domain gains new spells which they cast as Arcane. There is explicit precedent for this - they learn new spells from a Divine Source, and then cast them as Arcane Spells.


I have reread those paragraphs on page 77, but I can not find any mention of the Prestige Domain spells becoming Arcane ones. Reading it, it feels like the authors mean it, but they never come out and say so. If there is another reference please tell me, before I make myself look silly. :)

They do mention the sorceror gaining access to two versions of Dismissal, one at fourth and one at fifth level, though. Why he would ever care to take the 5th Level one is left as an exercise for the reader. (Pet Peeve: Why do different calsses gain spells at different levels. If a spells power is adequate for any given level, why artifically delay it for some characters ? But thats beside the point).

This also wonderfully fits my concept. Through the act of gaining Domain, the Wizard gets access to a Divine Source. This is what powers his Domain Spells.

To elaborate a bit, with Sources I mean something like Enrgy forms, not source as, where Mr. Wizard actually found the specific spell. So you could say Arcane Casters use a weird form of electricity, while Psionics use Chi to power their spells. Divine Casters, as you may have already guessed , would of course be using Cheese Radiation. I just thought I needed to clear that up to avoid misunderstandings.

I was not familiar with the Shugenja Factor, nice catch.
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Oberoni »

Ok, that last post of mine on the thread is just strange.

So, let's keep this one simple, so it doesn't blow up the message board code.

Does anything add to this:

SRD wrote:Spells: A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list.


I would assume that without specific exceptions noted (such as with Prestige domains and the like), a wizard is stuck casting spells on the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Is ther some other neat passage that explicitly contradicts this?
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Sma »

lol !
So much for that. Well at least it´s still page one. :)
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Oberoni »

Right, that's already noted as a specific case, and I agree with it.

But I'm just talking basic rules, no contemplatives or anything.
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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Username17 »

But I'm just talking basic rules, no contemplatives or anything.


OK:

Spell Research and Spell Copying.

When you "reasearch a new spell" - that's a unique spell that's not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, only you have it. When someone else copies it out of your spell book (such as your apprentice or something), they have it too.

And the ability to copy that spell out of a spell book is the same ability as the ability to copy a spell off of any scroll you have deciphered.

So once we accept that you can research a new spell (which is definitionally not on the Wizard spell list) and then share it with a friend out of your spell book, then necessarily a Naga can write a scroll of Dictum and have a friendly Wizard copy that down as well. It's the same ability, the same set of criteria, and functions in exactly the same way.

Once you put a spell out into the world it doesn't have a Divine or Arcane tag on it - it's just a spell.

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Re: It's good to be a Wizard

Post by Oberoni »

Ok. Isn't the viability of a new spell researched up to the DM, though? In other words, are you basing this idea on a mechanic that's based on the DM saying "sure, that's not explicitly in the rules, but I'll allow it?"
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