Why is Greater Magic Weapon both a 3rd level spell and a 4th

[Catharz]

After all, wouldn't things be so much simpler if a spell only had one level?

There are two rationales I can see WotC giving for this odd state of affairs. I'll state the stupid one first:

'We want paladins to be weak spellcasters, but we want to let them cast high level spells.'

How stupid is that? Really stupid. If those spells are attack spells, they'll be worthless due to low DCs. If they're buff spells, the crafting rules get abused. It's easier to give paladins appropriate level spell slots. It's more honest.

'Some spellcasters are supposed to be better at certain things than others.'

That's actually seems like a valid argument.
My perspective is, if you want a class using a spell, give it to them at the appropriate level. If you don't want a class using a spell, don't give it to them.
If for some reason you really want to give a PrC a spell at an inappropriately low level, give it as an SLA.

I've willing to be convince otherwise on this second part though.

[Fwib]

Hmmm... you might want a class to be able to use magic items of certain spells, but not throw that spell about themselves, so you give them the spell on their list at a rather high level...?

Doesn't help the cases where a spell is given out at a too-low level though... *shrug*

[Crissa]

Well, why do DCs have anything to do with spell level?

Do you want one class's version of a spell to be earlier/weaker/later/more than another class's?

You could totally only give Paladin (or any other class) even or odd or even primary numbered leveled spell slots. The chart is arbitrary, after all.

After you answer those questions, I'm sure Frank has something that has some real math behind it for you.

-Crissa

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Hi. I have some thoughts on this issue. Basically, the 'Some spellcasters are supposed to be better at certain things than others.' sentiment is the right one. This is true both thematically and mechanically.

Thematically, I think clerics should get access to better cure spells earlier than other classes like the druid. There exist some spells like the Heal spell, which one might argue to be defining of certain classes. Therefore, they should get them eariler. This holds true in other instances, but is however, subjective.

Mechanically, if you are using the same spell for different classes, you have to balance it somehow. If the classes themselves are balanced against each other, then the spell can be the same level. But if the classes are not balanced against each other, they must be balanced against what level their spells become available, or have different lists altogether.

For example, compare the cleric and the Sorcerer. Assume they are balanced against each other (In total, including spell lists). (Whether they are or not in reality doesn’t matter for this example) The Cleric has better bab, saves, hp, ac, etc. The Sorcerer has…a familiar, and skills. So how are they balanced? By spell lists. If the Sorcerer has different spells than the Cleric, better spells, they can be balanced. But if they share a spell, it would need to be different level.

If the Cleric and Sorcerer both got access to spell “X” then it should be, maybe, one level lower for the Sorcerer. Otherwise, what is the reason for being a Sorcerer at that point and not a Cleric? Complications arise when thematic choices enter this process as well.

I do agree, though, that crap casters like the Paladin and Ranger need major overhauling. But I don’t believe changing the levels of spells to one universal will help. It’s like giving the car a new paintjob when the engine has raccoons living in it.

[Catharz]

1171151099[/unixtime]]
Thematically, I think clerics should get access to better cure spells earlier than other classes like the druid. There exist some spells like the Heal spell, which one might argue to be defining of certain classes. Therefore, they should get them eariler. This holds true in other instances, but is however, subjective.

Unfortunately, making Heal a 7th level spell for sorcerers and a 6th level spell for clerics means that at 14th level the cleric who casts heal is defined by his ability to cast whatever class-defining 7th level spell he can cast. The sorcerer is defined by his best spell being the one that the cleric could cast two levels ago.

That flavor leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

If the Cleric and Sorcerer both got access to spell “X” then it should be, maybe, one level lower for the Sorcerer. Otherwise, what is the reason for being a Sorcerer at that point and not a Cleric?

At that point, why don't sorcerers cast at two levels (one spell level) higher than clerics?

I do agree, though, that crap casters like the Paladin and Ranger need major overhauling. But I don’t believe changing the levels of spells to one universal will help. It’s like giving the car a new paintjob when the engine has raccoons living in it.

If the paintjob sucks, why not re-paint the car? You can worry about the raccoons later, at least now it looks nice on your driveway

[SphereOfFeetMan]

I guess I wasn't clear in what I meant. I also don't think Sorcerers should get Heal. I was talking about spells like Summon Monster. Spells like Heal would go under the 'different spell lists' and 'thematically different' clauses I stated earlier.

Well, thematic issues aside, you might argue that they already do. The offensive capabilities of some Sorc/Wiz spells is effectively 1 or 2 spell levels higher than equivalent Cleric spells.

True. But then it will make it more difficult for anyone who doesn't know anything about cars (noobs) to distinguish a bad one from a good one.

[PhoneLobster]

I also don't think Sorcerers should get Heal.

Is there a reason for that or is it just legazy junk?

I was talking about spells like Summon Monster.

Which the sorcerer currently gets later than the Cleric does.

The offensive capabilities of some Sorc/Wiz spells is effectively 1 or 2 spell levels higher than equivalent Cleric spells.

Two words.

Hold Person.

Just extrapolate onwards from there.

But I don’t believe changing the levels of spells to one universal will help.

I think the point, and I agree with it, is that having the spells be DIFFERENT levels really doesn't help, making it a level lower for a half caster means about dick when they get it like nine billion levels too late.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Is there a reason for that or is it just legazy junk?

legazy junk. I guess.

Which the sorcerer currently gets later than the Cleric does.

My point exactly. The sorcerer should have a better Summon Monster, or at a lower level. Otherwise he would be better off just being Cleric.

Two words.

Hold Person.

Just extrapolate onwards from there.

I don't know what you mean by this. Yes, Hold Person is a good spell. Are you saying Clerics, overall, have better offensive spells than Sorcerer/Wizards?

I think the point, and I agree with it, is that having the spells be DIFFERENT levels really doesn't help, making it a level lower for a half caster means about dick when they get it like nine billion levels too late.

I don't know that the problem is inherently the fault of different leveled spells. You could just make them lower level than they are so the half casters get them at a level you'd prefer.

I guess what I mean to say is that I agree. But it would require remaking the half-casters to fix it. So how would you do that?

[PhoneLobster]

My point exactly. The sorcerer should have a better Summon Monster, or at a lower level. Otherwise he would be better off just being Cleric.

Do you realize the stupid complexity of that?

There are ALREADY numbered summon monster spells for every spell level AND numbered summon animal spells just for confusion (heck and probably some random sets of numbered summon Yo Mamma spells for every level as well).

So what do you propose either...

A) Introduce a new set of spells called Summon Monster PLUS I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, IIX, IX..., heck and a PLUS PLUS because you are going to at least need a better version for wizards and an even better version for sorcerers.

B) Have all those summon monsters available at lower caster levels for different casters... (one less for wizards so they don't feel bad about clerics, 2 less for sorcerers so they can get it at the same time or better than otherwise superior wizards...)

And then thats just going to work even though the spell is built around monsters that are basically supposed to be appropriate for character level and you are now casting at more than your level.

AND then thats supposed to be any good at all when the level 1 sorcerer is casting a lame Summon Monster III level effect that still only lasts for 1 round because of the stupid caster level issues on scaling attributes?

And and and, thats all better than having a simpler set of spells without multi level balancing issues and just fixing the sorcerer itself?

Yes, Hold Person is a good spell. Are you saying Clerics, overall, have better offensive spells than Sorcerer/Wizards?

I'm saying Wizards and sorcerers DON'T have better offensive spells.

There's hardly an effect that any wizard can do that a cleric can't do just as well, if not better and earlier. And considering the sorcerer does it even later than the wizard there ain't NOTHING a sorcerer ever does that is better than a cleric.

I don't know that the problem is inherently the fault of different leveled spells. You could just make them lower level than they are so the half casters get them at a level you'd prefer.

Doesn't matter.

Different leveled spells create loopholes and complexity and wierd junk.

Meanwhile they do NOTHING of benefit for sorcerers, and even less of benefit for half casters.

See there are several reasons for this.
1) Spell level influences DC. You lower the spell level you lower the DC, a ranger sees an automatic reduction of 2 or 3 to the best DCs he can produce BEFORE he suffers from MAD. Lowering the level of a spell to put it on his list does NOTHING for this.

2) Caster Level is still halved. Spell properties like range, duration, and other wierd junk are determined by caster level, not to mention overcoming SR. Your spells are still HALF as good.

So a BARD gets Hold Person 1 level lower than a wizard, so he sees it before he dies from shame in his late career.

And he sees it one level BEFORE the wizard does. So for a whole level he can cast it while the wizard is still putting things to sleep. Then at level 5 the wizard can cast the same spell with more than twice the duration and AT LEAST one more point of DC (likely about 3 or more due to lack of MAD). Meanwhile the cleric ALSO gets a lowered spell level for "themeatic reasons" and is doing the same thing better than the Bard since one level EARLIER than the bard.

Greater Magic weapon is even worse, The Paladin gets it at level 11 IF he invested a bunch in Wisdom and survives that long. But his caster level is HALF So he has 5 caster levels and gets +1 to his weapon per FOUR caster levels... He also has regular Magic Weapon on his spell list as a level one spell, and at that level can buy like 33 +1 weapons.

So anyway.

Multi level spells don't help, if anything they hinder.

They should go away. And then someone should fix the stupid classes.

[Catharz]

1171158680[/unixtime]]
I guess what I mean to say is that I agree. But it would require remaking the half-casters to fix it. So how would you do that?

What you do is give half-casters higher level spell slots, and make sure you don't give them any spells you don't want them casting.
You could easily make the half-casters (including the bard, paladin, and ranger) full casters with 9th level spells as long as you were careful not to give them any spells you didn't want them using. That's the whole point of having individual spell lists.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

So what do you propose either...

Something Closer to B. Like Clerics and Druids with the Cure spells. Sorc/Wiz get Summon Monster as normal, while the cleric gets Summon Monster one level later starting at Summon Monser 2, topping out at Summon Monster 8.

Summon Monster was just an example. My 'fixes' are just simple band-aids for the problem. You and Catharz are suggesting reconstructive surgery for the classes. I'm just showing an easy way (not the best way) to balance the classes more.

And and and, thats all better than having a simpler set of spells without multi level balancing issues and just fixing the sorcerer itself?

No.

Mechanically, if you are using the same spell for different classes, you have to balance it somehow. If the classes themselves are balanced against each other, then the spell can be the same level. But if the classes are not balanced against each other, they must be balanced against what level their spells become available, or have different lists altogether.

It is best to have the classes balanced against each other. But since they aren't, they have to be balanced against their spell levels.

I'm saying Wizards and sorcerers DON'T have better offensive spells.

There's hardly an effect that any wizard can do that a cleric can't do just as well, if not better and earlier. And considering the sorcerer does it even later than the wizard there ain't NOTHING a sorcerer ever does that is better than a cleric.

I am aware of such things as Greater Anyspell, free miracles, Arcane Disciple, domain cheese, etc. I'm discussing Core when I stated the above. I think we all know the Cleric wins.

So anyway.

Multi level spells don't help, if anything they hinder.

They should go away. And then someone should fix the stupid classes.

We have a chicken and egg thing going on here. Someone needs to fix the classes before the multi level spells go away. The multi level spells are a fix to a problem inherent in the classes.

I think in the end, I was discussing improving the 'fixes' for mult-level spells, while you were advocating remaking the classes so that there wouldn't be a need for any fixes.

If we are speaking of which should have been done, or should be done by the game designers, then your way is obviously the best.

If we are speaking of houserules, then I can change a number beside the spell level for my game. And you can redesign all the base classes so that they are balanced against each other for your game.

[TRQ]

Hi all. I lurk around this board often, primarily because I'm lazy and I like to procrastinate. (and you guys are fairly intelligent and fun to listen to. The internet is full of people who are precisely NOT like that. Kudos to you!) (Oh, and double chewy kudos to Frank and K, for obvious reasons.) I also have never posted before, primarily because I'm lazy and I should be doing work. It just so happened I decided not to be lazy any more, but work just doesn't seem appealling right now...

I heard it here first, and I've come to believe it: for game balance reasons, there shouldn't be really stupid options for your character to choose. All said and done, your character always has the ability to cast like a cohort if you want to; we can't stop that, at least in D&D. Go into combat and cast your 2nd highest level spells, feel free! But after you've done this, note that you still have all your slots for your highest spells available... you've been an idiot, but you still have about as much power left in you for the day than you did before, you haven't wasted your real abilities. On the other hand, if you have the option of making your most powerful spells equal in power to a cohort's spells, because of level renaming, then when you cast them your power level as a character truly decreases. You can't use spell levels simultaneously as 1) a way to give different characters certain spells at different times in their progression, and 2) a way to classify how powerful a spell is, and how powerful the guy who can cast them is. Druids getting Cure Mod at 3rd level instead of 2nd level is just idiotic (albeit an utterly moot point...)

So, what is wrong with the following general mechanic for differentiating who is good at what: keep the spells on the spell list, keep the spells at the same level, just declare that you get access to certain spells later than normal? Seems to make more sense than the norm of just giving things to them as SLAs later, and pretending that an SLA for a low level spell can replace level-appropriate class features.

Example: Healing spells are still on the druid spell list, at the same level as the cleric spell list (in fact, any spell which says "Cure 2d8+level HP" is ALWAYS second level, etc). However, a druid can't cast level X healing spells until 2 experience levels after they could normally cast level X spells. When he casts them, he casts them perfectly as normal. So basically, a druid does what he does with his primary abilities, but can heal like a cohort (better, actually, because he has those 2 extra spellcaster levels) if he wants. Versatility with secondary abilities isn't anywhere near as powerful as versatility with primary abilities, so if you're looking for something between "healing as well as a cleric" and "not healing at all" its better to do this than to waste real power on inefficient healing.

I've always felt a similar principle should be applied to spell specialization. Maybe its more of a cultural, why-doesn't-this-gaming-world-make-any-sort-of-sense complaint than a real rules complaint, but it always seemed stupid to me that a high level wizard who specialized out of abjuration can summon your mother's underpants while cavorting in the plane of fire, but he can't cast Alarm. Is it because the Loremaster of Capital City can't figure out the symbols and motions that this pimply acolyte can use with ease? Obviously WotC never explains in the slightest degree where the hell magic comes from anyway, but whatever explanation you come up with, it still doesn't make too much sense. If instead of banning schools, specialists were just weak in those schools and picked up their spells 4 levels later than normal, what difference would it make? Very little balance wise, fairly negligible gameplay-wise, but flavor-wise it might actually make some sense!

(In fact, if you really wanted to make things interesting, so that any given wizard was different than any other, declare that you ONLY learn your specialized school at the normal level, you learn other spells 2 levels later, and your weak schools 4 levels later. And make everyone specialize. And make it so that conjuration and illusion can't do fvcking everything, so that which school you specialize in actually matters, and spell specializations are actually flavorful and thematic. And...)

Well, now you know. I talk a lot, when I'm not being lazy. Feel free to criticize - I would take singular pleasure in being called a fvcking moron by any of you.

Party on,
TRQ

[Catharz]

TRQ, that seems to be one of the possible good solutions.

One option I've imagined is making things a lot more binary: If you want a spell to be specific to a class or subset of classes, only that class or those classes get it. By your example, if druids are never given the option of using CMW they never have the option of using a level-inappropriate spell.

However, although what you propose would be more complex, it seems to keep the current D&D flavor better. There is already a similar mechanic in the Beguiler class.

You'd end up with a system superficially similar to the 2e system of "spheres." Of course, this would require a good deal of work. Possibly more than it's worth, compared to the amount of work involved in just retooling the entire system.

What you propose for specialist wizards would work just fine. As Frank has said, being a specialist is hardly a restriction at all, given the amount of overlap/'same ends though different means' potential between schools. Having a more significant chunk of your stuff delayed would definately serve better to differentiate specialists from each other.

[Neeek]

1171184674[/unixtime]]
What you propose for specialist wizards would work just fine. As Frank has said, being a specialist is hardly a restriction at all, given the amount of overlap/'same ends though different means' potential between schools. Having a more significant chunk of your stuff delayed would definately serve better to differentiate specialists from each other.

Heck, you could just eliminate generalist wizards entirely, which is probably a good idea anyway, and do something along the lines of 1 school at full level, 2 two levels (one spell level) behind, 2 more four levels (two spell levels) behind, and the last 3 six levels (3 spell levels) behind.

Seems reasonable, at least.

[PhoneLobster]

OK I should have said something earlier because thats starting to sound like insanity.

1) Its needlessly complex
2) It makes wizards even weaker than clerics than they are already
3) You are STILL effectively giving out NON LEVEL APPROPRIATE ABILITIES. You're disguising it in veils but its still god damn empty level consolation prizes, and its still big chunks of character that can't compete with their proper environment.
4) Reducing spell access by level like this is so fvcking arbitrary!

Let me point out on 3 That later access IS reduced level, If I don't get a level 2 spell until I'm level 7 then I am still casting a spell 2 levels lower than is level appropriate when I do get it, DUH.

Then let me emphasise 4.

You got no idea which spells are going to be limited and which aren't, its going to be a roller coaster ride of discovery as spells ALREADY arbitrarily placed in certain levels now again arbitrarily slide on or off the scale at random.

Thats not an easy tack on to "solve" anything its UTTER CHAOS.

Frank, get in here and tell these people thats utter chaos.

[Catharz]

1171193981[/unixtime]]OK I should have said something earlier because thats starting to sound like insanity.

1) Its needlessly complex
2) It makes wizards even weaker than clerics than they are already
3) You are STILL effectively giving out NON LEVEL APPROPRIATE ABILITIES. You're disguising it in veils but its still god damn empty level consolation prizes, and its still big chunks of character that can't compete with their proper environment.
4) Reducing spell access by level like this is so fvcking arbitrary!

Let me point out on 3 That later access IS reduced level, If I don't get a level 2 spell until I'm level 7 then I am still casting a spell 2 levels lower than is level appropriate when I do get it, DUH.

Then let me emphasise 4.

You got no idea which spells are going to be limited and which aren't, its going to be a roller coaster ride of discovery as spells ALREADY arbitrarily placed in certain levels now again arbitrarily slide on or off the scale at random.

Thats not an easy tack on to "solve" anything its UTTER CHAOS.

Frank, get in here and tell these people thats utter chaos.

If what you're saying is true, why do wizards have any spell slots below the maximum level they cast?

You seem to be saying that a 15th level wizard would not even notice if you took away all his 0th-6th level spell slots. That implies an extreme failure of vision on the part of the wizard. Even at that level 1st and 2nd level spells like Enlarge Person, Identify, Rope Trick, and Silent Image matter.

[PhoneLobster]

There's notice and there's notice.

The suggested system that evolved into what neek came up with gives you access to the spell sleep anywhere up to as late as character level 7.

Do you see the problem there?

Because that sorta junk will come up all the time.

[Essence]

My 2 cents:

In every campaign I've run past the first one I completed, I've made several house rules that make spellcasting in general work MUCH more effectively in my games:

1) ALL spells have a DC of 10+1/2 HD+Stat. The penalty for using a 2nd level spell slot to Hold someone is that you can't use it on a Rhino, not that the spell doesn't work anymore.

2) Caster level doesn't exist -- all spells' attributes are based strictly on character level. The penalty for multiclassing into a non-magical class is that you don't get your highest levels of spells, not that the spells you already know start sucking.

3) There are a total of 4 spell lists - Arcane, Divine, Psionic, and Technological. Each type of magic has stuff that it does well and stuff that it sucks at, but beyond that, the only thing that sets Druids apart from Clerics is their idiom. This means that there are no silly spells that are Sor/Wiz 7, Wu Jen 6, Dread Necromancer 5, Hexblade 4. Every spell appears on every list at the same level unless your type of magic specializes and/or sucks at that type of magic, in which case it may appear 2 levels lower, 2 levels higher, or not at all. (For example, Technological magic sucks at moving stuff around, so Teleport is a 7th level spell for Scientists and Geeks, but it's 5th for Paladins, Psychic Warriors, and Bards. This is purely to increase the flavor differences between different parts of the universe.)

4) Quarter casters go up to 7th level spells. Half casters go up to 5th level spells. I have nice, reasonable progressions built up for each. Each has a different value when determining class balance, and that's how they're taken into account, so we openly acknowledge that half casting is worth half of full casting, and so on. Paladins and Rangers don't "pay" much for their spells, because we KNOW that they're 80% flavor anyway, even with the other changes above.

5) Spontaneous casters don't have metamagic casting time increases, they can quicken, they don't get spells at a higher class level, and (this is the big one) they don't get any more spell slots per day than a prepared caster. The advantage of a prepared caster is that you get to choose from a huge list of spells; the advantage of spontaneous casting is that you get to choose from a smaller list on the fly. That's enough, seriously.

6) Spellbooks are a penalty, and they're treated like it. Wizards get bonus feats because they have to deal with the crap of having a spellbook - other prepared casters just get to look at the whole list and pick what they want.

7) If a class is supposed to have a specific "style" of magic, they may be restricted to certain schools of magic, or certain descriptors (for example, the Hoda Korotsu class can only cast Psionic spells with a range of Touch, and the Shugenja can only cast Divine spells with an elemental or energy descriptor.) They are reimbursed for this restriction by the addition of class features, but only if the restriction is narrow enough to warrant it.


I've found that, with these changes, most every class gets exactly what it's supposed to get from it's spells. Hexblades and Paladins use the Extra Spell feat to get Wraithstrike, and they go to town because they're happy to spend a feat in order to have something really combat-effective to do with their spell slots; meanwhile, the Bard gets a special class feature that allows him to cast the Cure X Wounds line and some other status-eliminating spells despite using the Arcane spell list, and he's otherwise a damn fine Wizard-substitute who uses his BAB along with the no-save, yes-attack roll spells to contribute to the fight just fine, thank you.

[Neeek]

1171228100[/unixtime]]There's notice and there's notice.

The suggested system that evolved into what neek came up with gives you access to the spell sleep anywhere up to as late as character level 7.

Do you see the problem there?

No, I don't. Why would that be a problem? If you didn't take the school it's in, you weren't planning on using sleep. Where is the issue?

[Catharz]

1171228100[/unixtime]]There's notice and there's notice.

The suggested system that evolved into what neek came up with gives you access to the spell sleep anywhere up to as late as character level 7.

Do you see the problem there?

Because that sorta junk will come up all the time.

The Conjurer with Enchantment as a 'forbidden' school won't care about getting Sleep at 7th level, but he will care about Charm Person.

Whether he should ever get Charm Person at all is certainly a valid question.

[Crissa]

Specialist casters are a different topic from spell list differentiation - They're not just specialized and do one thing better than another, they've given up one sort of casting for more power. Sacrificed. Made a bet with God. I don't care, but that's how it works.

...

But if you don't have different spell lists, what's the point of having different casting classes?

-Crissa

[User3]

1171228462[/unixtime]]My 2 cents:

In every campaign I've run past the first one I completed, I've made several house rules that make spellcasting in general work MUCH more effectively in my games:

1) ALL spells have a DC of 10+1/2 HD+Stat. The penalty for using a 2nd level spell slot to Hold someone is that you can't use it on a Rhino, not that the spell doesn't work anymore.

2) Caster level doesn't exist -- all spells' attributes are based strictly on character level. The penalty for multiclassing into a non-magical class is that you don't get your highest levels of spells, not that the spells you already know start sucking.

3) There are a total of 4 spell lists - Arcane, Divine, Psionic, and Technological. Each type of magic has stuff that it does well and stuff that it sucks at, but beyond that, the only thing that sets Druids apart from Clerics is their idiom. This means that there are no silly spells that are Sor/Wiz 7, Wu Jen 6, Dread Necromancer 5, Hexblade 4. Every spell appears on every list at the same level unless your type of magic specializes and/or sucks at that type of magic, in which case it may appear 2 levels lower, 2 levels higher, or not at all. (For example, Technological magic sucks at moving stuff around, so Teleport is a 7th level spell for Scientists and Geeks, but it's 5th for Paladins, Psychic Warriors, and Bards. This is purely to increase the flavor differences between different parts of the universe.)

4) Quarter casters go up to 7th level spells. Half casters go up to 5th level spells. I have nice, reasonable progressions built up for each. Each has a different value when determining class balance, and that's how they're taken into account, so we openly acknowledge that half casting is worth half of full casting, and so on. Paladins and Rangers don't "pay" much for their spells, because we KNOW that they're 80% flavor anyway, even with the other changes above.

5) Spontaneous casters don't have metamagic casting time increases, they can quicken, they don't get spells at a higher class level, and (this is the big one) they don't get any more spell slots per day than a prepared caster. The advantage of a prepared caster is that you get to choose from a huge list of spells; the advantage of spontaneous casting is that you get to choose from a smaller list on the fly. That's enough, seriously.

6) Spellbooks are a penalty, and they're treated like it. Wizards get bonus feats because they have to deal with the crap of having a spellbook - other prepared casters just get to look at the whole list and pick what they want.

7) If a class is supposed to have a specific "style" of magic, they may be restricted to certain schools of magic, or certain descriptors (for example, the Hoda Korotsu class can only cast Psionic spells with a range of Touch, and the Shugenja can only cast Divine spells with an elemental or energy descriptor.) They are reimbursed for this restriction by the addition of class features, but only if the restriction is narrow enough to warrant it.


I've found that, with these changes, most every class gets exactly what it's supposed to get from it's spells. Hexblades and Paladins use the Extra Spell feat to get Wraithstrike, and they go to town because they're happy to spend a feat in order to have something really combat-effective to do with their spell slots; meanwhile, the Bard gets a special class feature that allows him to cast the Cure X Wounds line and some other status-eliminating spells despite using the Arcane spell list, and he's otherwise a damn fine Wizard-substitute who uses his BAB along with the no-save, yes-attack roll spells to contribute to the fight just fine, thank you.

Can you post the full details of this in the "It's My Own Invention" Forum, please? I might want to steal it.

[Catharz]

1171250892[/unixtime]]
Can you post the full details of this in the "It's My Own Invention" Forum, please? I might want to steal it.

Agreed.

[Username17]

Delaying spell access really is the worst possible solution to any problem. If a character gets a spell X at an increased level, there are actually only two possible results:

1. The Character Uses the Spell. In this case, th characters who get the spell at th regular time wake his ass up at 3AM to sing "everything you can do, I can do better." The character is shit, because there's another character who is a fvcking cohort that does the same thing in the party.
   
   
2. The Character does not use the Spell. Well golly gee, that's exactly the same as just not getting the spell.

In short, if you give Wizards plane shift at a higher level than Clerics, then you've wasted someone's time whether that spell is used or not. Either way, you're a shitty game designer who designs shit. Either you've wasted our time reading a spell selection we won't use or you've wasted a player's time by making him take levels in "sucking so damned hard that his cohort's cohort could do the same damn thing."

And that is worth fvck-all.

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If you really want to drive home a distinct difference in spell casting between one group and another, you've got basically two options that are not made out of feces:

1. Ban Spells If one group is "bad at banishing" you might consider not giving them spells that banish! In this manner, the characters are forced to do other things, other level appropriate things.
   
   
2. Add Spells If one group of casters are supposed to be good at something, throw in other level appropriate spells for them to use that basically kind of do that. For example, if you have a class that really focuses on transportation magic, it might have a 2nd level short-range teleportation spell. And a 3rd level teleportation spell. And a 6th level teleportatio spell. Every character is still doing level appropriate stuff, and teleport hasn't gone anywhere, but people will still turn to the Transporter for their transportation needs because he's going to have a tool of the appropriate size for whatever needs to be done.

There really isn't anything you can do that's good that involves one character having a high-end weapon that's really just the same thing that another character was using four levels ago. The problems of this are so obvious that I'm surprised that it still gets serious consideration.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

Well I don't entirely agree with Frank that getting a spell later than others makes you shit. I mean the entire principle of mixed ability characters (like fighter mages) is they're getting some casting slower than others and they fight slightly worse.

The problem only really comes in when they can't do anything well enough to actually contribute. Being a little worse than your friend at something isn't terrible, because you can do stuff he can't. Especially if it's something non-combat related like planeshifting. If your group doesn't happen to have the class that gets the spell early, then your other class takes over, even if slightly inefficiently, it still means you can plane shift at all and while casting a scorching ray as a 3rd level spell may be something you definitely notice. Throwing a teleport as a 6th level or dimension door at 5th probably isn't going to be a big deal.