Err.. A question on the Knight.

[Tokorona]

Edit: I use Races of War Knight

Okay, recently, a player of mine came up wth a way to swindle a Knight (Battlefield Commander) out of supplies by pretending to work for him.

This would be fine, except she's a NG Knight. And, after reading the Code of Condcut, I was forced to rule in her favor. Is there a reason why it was omitted? Or was it to allow Evil Knights?

[Crissa]

So... she's less than honest, but using the supplies for something she finds to be more important.

She's okay until she gets caught.

So?

Isn't that the definition of Neutral+Good?

-Crissa

[Username17]

The question is whether outright lying to people to get your way is something which is "dishonorable". And honestly, in D&D land the answer is no it isn't.

D&D has Chaos as a palpable force that people can pick up and carry around. It's an ideal that perfectly reasonable people hold dear to their hearts as the core of virtue. Simply, in D&D land conducting yourself honorably does not mean that you conduct yourself honestly.

Think Greek heroes. Odysseus lies constantly, and he's a Hero. He isn't considered dishonorable, he's considered clever.

This is a world which has Chaos Knights in it. They uphold the virtues of Knighthood no more and no less than the Imperial Knights. They just happen to be raging cocks about it.

---

So if someone can figure out how to throw honesty and rules to the wind in order to advance the cause of righteousness, there's a whole bunch of outsiders who are totally OK with that. And in D&D land the important thing is not to make one or another group of outsiders happy - but to simply make the same group happy over and over again so they end up being the ones that judge you when you die...

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

Wouldn't honourable be determined by society? (ie the powerful dudes who run society.) In that case I'd say that lying to society is dishonourable but lying to team monster isn't.

[Judging__Eagle]

1170919658[/unixtime]]Wouldn't honourable be determined by society? (ie the powerful dudes who run society.) In that case I'd say that lying to society is dishonourable but lying to team monster isn't.

Yes, it could. Except for one thing.

If you lie to society, to help team monster, you're dishonerable.

If you lie to society, to help society, you're clever.


If you lie to team monster, to help society, you're clever.

If you lie to team monster, to help team monster, you're devious.

It's not a matter of what you do. It's a matter of how much it impacts the team you're on.

So, to sum up; society favours being honorable or clever. Team monster favours deviousnes.

Also, you can lie to team monster to help Team You, but if society suffers as a result you're devious. If they don't, you're clever.

[Username17]

1170919658[/unixtime]]Wouldn't honourable be determined by society? (ie the powerful dudes who run society.) In that case I'd say that lying to society is dishonourable but lying to team monster isn't.

Honor is determined by the people at the top. And the people at the top of the power pyramid in D&D are perversely the Adventurers, not society at all.

So things adventurers want to do: loot bodies, trick rivals, and run into feces-filled caverns full of monsters - those things are honorable.

In Earth's history, the people who wandered around doing odd jobs were at the bottom of things, and the people living in fancy houses in cities were at the top. In D&D land, it's the other way: the vagabonds are the power behind everything and the people in fancy houses only get those fancy houses because they are related to vagabonds who are known to be able to kill an elephant with a teddy-bear. It's hard to wrap your mind around, but in D&D land Han Solo is considered to be honorable, and Luke's uncle is a shifty freeloader.

-Username17

[Fwib]

"...known to be able to kill an elephant with a teddy-bear."

I much admire your way with words and your mode of thought.

[Draco_Argentum]

Thats what I was getting at, the adventurers aren't likely to like being lied to. Since they get to decide what isn't honourable shouldn't lying to adventurers be dishonourable?

[Judging__Eagle]

1170977116[/unixtime]]"...known to be able to kill an elephant with a teddy-bear."

I much admire your way with words and your mode of thought.

Well, yeah. Why do you think these supplements are such a freaging hit?

The content as well as the style.

And Draco; no, lying to Adventurers is considered dishonerable.

However, Adventurers know that everyone whose not one of them is gonna lie if its in their best interest.

That's why there's items like Candle of Truth or the Hookah of Truth (in the "Van Helsing's Armory' Ravenloft book).

[Tokorona]

I disagree with that assessment. While many codes of honor contain parts to keept he ruling class in power, they also contain parts to endear themselves - to promote the image of superiority.

However, that is a separate debate from my question. I thank you for your response.

- Tokorona.

[RandomCasualty]

Honor is defined by the guys at the top, but honor is also inherently self serving. Sometimes you make certain things honorable to benefit yourself.

For instance, it was honorable and accepted to be really religious in medieval times and just do your peasant work or whatever, not concerned with bettering yourself in this lifetime and just worried about getting into Heaven. This was great for the church and the lords who pretty much got people to just do what they were told without any desire to take power or do anything else.

It was also honorable for a samurai in Feudal Japan to die before betraying his lord. This is also for the lord's benefit because it discourages traitors.

Now carrying this to D&D, it's going to be honorable to do anything that helps the powerful. So being a peasant is indeed a freeloader, since adventurers generally have their own food. Being a guy who crafts and sells magic items is an honorable profession. Being a cohort is also an honorable profession and so on.

Also consider that spellcasters are probably considered your main elite trendsetters, so stuff like lying is probably going to be dishonorable since casters pretty much suck at lying and suck at detecting lies, so they don't want people doing that. In fact, it's probably considered more honorable to charm person someone as opposed to using bluff to seduce them.

[Endovior]

Heh, that entirely depends on how perceptive the Wizard in question is... since he probably doesn't have anything in terms of Sense Motive, and thinking outside the metagame box, it's not so much "Dang, I keep losing against bluffs" as it is "Cool, hot chicks want to sleep with me, and I don't even have to Charm them first". Hence Aristocrats; the original high-class whores.