How Strong Are D&D Characters Compared to Real Superheroes?

[Judging__Eagle]

Not true.

There are stimulants used by the military that simply provide your brain with the chemical that you consume while awake and replenish while asleep; the chemical produced by 'dreaming' so to speak.

Now, these things are completely non-addictive and as soon as you stop popping them you'll fall asleep when your bodies levels of this chemical drop below a certian level.

So, yeah, Batman could probably be awke 24/7. He rests when he has time; during the day.

It helps him foster a all-night partying and drinking who is now hung over and sleeping in bed, playboy image.


Now, I completely forget the names of these pills, but I've heard that you cna get them commercially in Canada, so the states would be no problem; fvck, Bats could just pop over, buy them over the counter and Batwing/Batsub his way back to Gotham.


And yeah, if you're trying to 'class' Batman, he's definately a Rogue.

He's able to sneak past anyone (how many times does he simply Vanish on commisioner Gordon?).

He's able to impersonate/bluff that he's someone else. Back in the 90's animated series he essentially played a 'Bruce Wayne is a street thug' character (when Commissioner Gorden was kidnapped by Two-Face).

One problem though, Two-Face (aka Harvey Dent) was Bruce Wayne's good friend for years; yet, with no facial hair, scarring, skin tone change etc. Bruce Wayne was able to convince Two-Face (Harvey Dent) that he was 'Matches Malone'.

So, that's an insane bluff check; even with lots of ranks, he'd need decent charisma to pull off a down in his luck thug who heard that there was a big score somewhere and he wanted in on the action. So, I'd put Bat's stats at an even all 18's, even Charisma; with a 22 or so int.

He can hide form anyone (oh, the wizard can't actually see Batman if he's using a straight Hide Check, True Seeing is fubared by actual hide checks).

He's an excellent detective who can either puzzle or intuit solutions to bizarre problems relatively swiftly; how often can he figure out where someone is hiding by trace clues? How often can he solve the Ridderl's fiendish puzzles?

So, he'd probably 'solve' the problem of the wizard. Probably by just sundering his spell component pouch.

I mean, some guys keeps doing wierder and wierder shit to you, but he's always grabbing crap out of this baggy on his belt (or his belt itself, if the wizard is using a belt of many pockets).

I'm sure Batman knows how easy it is to nullify his own Batbelt and could probably figure out a way to snip some other person's 'utility belt' from off of their waist.

In fact his ability at figuring things out is so great that Ras Al'Ghul's proper term for Batman is 'Detective'; and Ras is probably the only person with any chance of equalling or outperforming Batman in the long run, and that's with Ras having over 3 or 5 hundred years of experience; I know that he's at least known Napoleon, so he's at least 200-ish years old, but he's probably older).

[Catharz]

Batman is probably a Rogue/Artificer. There isn't really any other way to explain his tech level: He has shark repellant that works on mechanical sharks.

And a high level Artificer/Rogue is pretty much unstoppable. It's quite possible that Batman could steal a wizard's staff and UMD Blasphemy (oops, sorry Lago) to make anyone explode. He isn't above mysticism.

[Nytmare]

Though I have to say that trying to argue either side of this is a losing fight, Batman's gadgetry and planning would pretty much act like a supernatural ability. He's a Robe of Useful Items that spits out whatever technological doo-dad he needs to conquer the problem at hand. He's always prepared, even when he's caught unawares, that's what his super power is.

The mage who attempted to 'scry and die' Batman would discover, to his chagrin, that Batman had already prepared for this exact circumstance, and used the Batcomputer to look up some ancient book that described a rare earth magnet that disrupts the flow of arcani-thorpic particles, and leaves the particle emitter drooling and unconcious.

In the end what it would really boil down to is which name came first on the comic book cover.

[Judging__Eagle]

1168973277[/unixtime]]Though I have to say that trying to argue either side of this is a losing fight, Batman's gadgetry and planning would pretty much act like a supernatural ability. He's a Robe of Useful Items that spits out whatever technological doo-dad he needs to conquer the problem at hand. He's always prepared, even when he's caught unawares, that's what his super power is.

The mage who attempted to 'scry and die' Batman would discover, to his chagrin, that Batman had already prepared for this exact circumstance, and used the Batcomputer to look up some ancient book that described a rare earth magnet that disrupts the flow of arcani-thorpic particles, and leaves the particle emitter drooling and unconcious.

In the end what it would really boil down to is which name came first on the comic book cover.

Which, hilariously, still supports the whole 'no one can get the ultimate drop on Batman' line that is going on here.

If Batman meets a wizard in his own comic series, they probably won't have him lose to the wizard.

If Bats meets a wizard in some other comic series, specifically that wizard's comic series, then Bats might lose.

However there's one problem, it's not canon, and therefore can't happen.

So, Batman is technically an impossible target, that could possibly be beaten by melee-brutes head to head.

The problem with that is that Batman has been fighting big strong tough guys like, say, Killer Croc in the past. So he might out-feint and out hide the fighter then sneak attack him with a punch.

[Crissa]

Bats has had the drop taken on him many times before...

...But the badguy has always either not taken advantage of him (Al Guhl) or didn't know they had him specifically (Mad Hatter)

-Crissa

[Endovior]

I can't see any confrontation between Batman and a maxed-out Wizard going well for Batman... the Wizard will benefit from Fly and Greater Invisibility without even thinking hard, and that gives Batman problems. While Batman's trying to locate his assailant, the Wizard is hammering away with save-or-dies... and eventually, Batman's going to fail a save. The more books the Wizard has access to, the more outmatched Batman is.

[Judging__Eagle]

1169320247[/unixtime]]I can't see any confrontation between Batman and a maxed-out Wizard going well for Batman... the Wizard will benefit from Fly and Greater Invisibility without even thinking hard, and that gives Batman problems. While Batman's trying to locate his assailant, the Wizard is hammering away with save-or-dies... and eventually, Batman's going to fail a save. The more books the Wizard has access to, the more outmatched Batman is.

IR goggles > Any invisibility

.... Batarangs > Flying


Like I said, unless the wizard has magically reinforced gear for his spell component pouch (and really, who actually does that?) as well as magically reinforced non-spell component pouch foci, Bats can break those.

A wizard without his tools is like Batman without his belt.

[RandomCasualty]

1169322236[/unixtime]]
IR goggles > Any invisibility

.... Batarangs > Flying

Yeah, buit how often does batman walk around with IR goggles anyway?

And batman can't do jack against a scry and die attack.

[Judging__Eagle]

1169330061[/unixtime]]

1169322236[/unixtime]]
IR goggles > Any invisibility

.... Batarangs > Flying

Yeah, buit how often does batman walk around with IR goggles anyway?

And batman can't do jack against a scry and die attack.

Do you have an itemized list of Batman's utility belt or the pockets built into his cape and suit?


Depends how you have the Teleport spell work.


If you have it work like in the Dungeonomicon so that dungeons have a reason to exist in a D&D world (i.e. 40 feet of continuous non-fluid material (wood, earth, stone, masonry, etc.) prevent teleportation through said material); then Bats would only be at risk in the field or potentially in the Wayne Manor proper, but not in the cave.

Where he could probably move away from said attacker.

Besides, he's Batman, how does he know that he can't kill a Wizard, has he ever tried?

After all, he's Batman, and he can breathe in space.

[User3]

1169330061[/unixtime]]

1169322236[/unixtime]]
IR goggles > Any invisibility

.... Batarangs > Flying

Yeah, buit how often does batman walk around with IR goggles anyway?

And batman can't do jack against a scry and die attack.

Batman has a superpower.. it is "Pulls arbitary things off the bat belt which is exactly what is needed to win the encounter"

So clearly he can

[Endovior]

IR Vision is a fancy modern name for Darkvision.

Darkvision doesn't let you see Invisible creatures.

Therefore, IR Goggles won't help Batman against an Invisible Wizard. Some sort of super-hearing, yes, and there are devices to aid that... but Fly is hardly noisy, so what he'd be listening for is the sound of the Wizard's chanting, but that'd still be hard enough to hear so as to make precise location doubtful (especially from a goodly distance), and even if he did guess right, Invisibility's still good for 50% Concealment.

Also, hitting a Wizard's spell component pouch is laughably impossible when hitting the Wizard himself is a challenge, and a lot of powerful spells don't need material components anyways. (Power Words, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Wish...)





Alternately, and far more deviously, he could just mail Batman a letter, which is ostensibly an offer to meet up at X location, where valuable information as to the doings of villain X will be shared in person. This will ensure that Batman actually touches the letter, say, to read it after Robin or whoever he has reading his mail looks at it first. This is essential because the Letter is actually the focus for Trap the Soul, and when he touches it, the Wizard owns his soul with no saving throw. He can then proceed to sell Batman's soul to Baatorians for an amazing profit. It is notable that this isn't so much defeating Batman as starting the plot arc of Batman being forced to perform various evil services for the Archdevils to reclaim his soul from Hell, so it could work even in Batman's own comic strip.

[RandomCasualty]

1169368832[/unixtime]]
Therefore, IR Goggles won't help Batman against an Invisible Wizard. Some sort of super-hearing, yes, and there are devices to aid that... but Fly is hardly noisy, so what he'd be listening for is the sound of the Wizard's chanting, but that'd still be hard enough to hear so as to make precise location doubtful (especially from a goodly distance), and even if he did guess right, Invisibility's still good for 50% Concealment.

Actually, flight makes about as much noise as normal movement according to the rules. Nothing in the flight spell description says it's silent, so it's assumed to make about as much noise as normal walking. Unless you're using ghostform of course, because incorporeals are specifically noted as being silent.

Speaking of which, ghostform would completely own batman. Batman has a lot of technological wonders but he doesn't have anything magical, so incorps would be able to easily beat him.

Against scry and die, batman clearly sleeps in Wayne manor, So he's screwed against that. Batman's identity as Wayne would be rather easy to ascertain with divinations.

Obviously, if we're talking about batman's own comic, he would beat the wizard because he has the added plot immunity (Ex) ability, but on neutral ground, he'd get his ass kicked.

[TarlSS]

Where are rules for disabling a Force Cage?

[Judging__Eagle]

1169407046[/unixtime]]Where are rules for disabling a Force Cage?

Epic level handbook; it's a DD check of.. 120?

Check www.d20srd.com, they have the epic level stuff there, check the epic skill checks.



As for IR goggles not working, well, there's different types. Passive might not find the wizard, but an active system might.

And who knows, Batman may have gone straight to UV lamps and goggles.

Now, that stuff is spooky. I know that the Land Warrior project was using that kind of kit as far back as the early 2000's.

You could place a tripod-held column lamp about 1 meter tall that would illuminate a good 200 foot radius with 'light'; but if you don't have the goggles to view the high end UV rays that are being emitted, the area 'lit-up' is solid darkness. The only thing better than that is that your own troops in the forest just beside the field can have small high-end UV lamps in their helmet netting so you can know where they are at all times on the ground, reducing freindly fire (which, I'm sorry to say the Americans have been notorious for since World War II).

Since invisibility doesn't actually make you 'actually' invisible; it only adds +40 to your hide checks (+20 if you're moving), you can still be seen by someone with advanced enough motion-sensing and imaging gear and high enough human perception.

I've had people as low as level 5 or 6 'see' invisible enemies since they were able to make the 20-ish spot check no problem; while the 'target' had no ranks in hide and probably had a dex penalty.

With a DC of : 20 + 1 per 10 feet of distance (say... 50 feet; so a DC of 25) Versus a Ranger with 8 ranks, Goggles of the Avoral (+8) and 16 wisdom (+3) = +19; on a roll of 6 or better they can 'see' the 'invisible' target.

[User3]

Don't forget that the DC 20 check is actually just to notice that there's an invisible guy around somewhere. It's DC 40 to spot his exact square, at least according to the DMG (the PHB has a couple of different numbers).

[Fwib]

I don't see epic disable device for Walls of Force, but I do see this.

[User3]

Hey, that page has the correct spot DCs:

The character can pinpoint the location of an invisible creature, or detect an illusion with a visual component.
DC Task
20 Notice presence of active invisible creature
30 Notice presence of unmoving, living invisible creature
40 Notice presence of inanimate invisible object
40 Notice presence of unmoving, unliving invisible creature
80 Defeat illusion


A character can use Spot to notice the presence of an invisible creature. The relevant DCs are reprinted here. If the character beats the DC by 20 or more, he or she can pinpoint the location of the invisible creature, though it still maintains total concealment from the character (50% miss chance).

[Crissa]

Dude, but Batman is the equialent of Scry-and-Die, just with technology.

He's blind? He pulls out a blindsight gadget.

Broken legs? He has a power armor suit.

Space? Space suit.

Scry? Batwave. Batcomputer. Batsnitches. Bat Junior Detective Kit.

You don't get the drop on Batman by targeting Batman.

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

1169685286[/unixtime]]Dude, but Batman is the equialent of Scry-and-Die, just with technology.

He's blind? He pulls out a blindsight gadget.

Broken legs? He has a power armor suit.

Space? Space suit.

Scry? Batwave. Batcomputer. Batsnitches. Bat Junior Detective Kit.

You don't get the drop on Batman by targeting Batman.

Only batman can't teleport and batman has to sleep sometime.

Batman is real easy to beat with D&D spells. It's not like Wayne sleeps with the batbelt on at all times.

[erik]

This seems eerily on topic.

http://www.jibjab.com/jokebox/jokebox/j ... 725[br][br]

[Judging__Eagle]

1169515204[/unixtime]]I don't see epic disable device for Walls of Force, but I do see this.

Bah; at least I knew that it was a DC 120 check.

[Endovior]

1169685286[/unixtime]]Dude, but Batman is the equialent of Scry-and-Die, just with technology.

He's blind? He pulls out a blindsight gadget.

Broken legs? He has a power armor suit.

Space? Space suit.

Scry? Batwave. Batcomputer. Batsnitches. Bat Junior Detective Kit.

You don't get the drop on Batman by targeting Batman.

-Crissa

]

Surely you jest. Batman's tech won't beat magic for scrying, not by a long shot. We can be really really super-generous, and say that he can figure out the location of absolutely anyone on earth in minutes with his powerful computers, tech, etc... but that won't help him at all against a 20th-level Wizard, who is relaxing on some distant inhospitable plane (say, Negative Energy) casting Discern Location. Not only does Batman's tech not extend there, but he doesn't even know about it. And even if he did, he wouldn't be able to go there, and even if he could, he'd die! The only way Batman could even ATTEMPT to go after such a Wizard is if you're talking Justice League or some such, and then only because he can get assistance from other supers. But if you're talking about getting assistance, then the Wizard can bring along friends, too... a situation not at all in favor of supers.

[Crissa]

Batman can't use technology to dimention hop because you say so?

WTF? Do you even watch the cartoons, let alone the comics?

-Crissa

[User3]

Yeah, Apokolips totally has boom tubes or whatever, and if Lex Luthor can get his hands on that tech, so can Bruce Wayne.

[dbb]

In a very real sense, despite looking very much like a Rogue, Batman is the Wizard in the context of his campaign. He's a guy who is often not physically a match for the raw destructive power of his opponents, and who has access to a large arsenal of special attacks and special effects whose effectiveness is dependent on his good judgement in deploying them. That's a Wizard, right there.

The reason the argument over whether Batman can beat the Wizard goes round and round forever is because that's basically a mirror match. So the guy who wins is probably the guy who wins initiative.

--d.