Miracle vs Wish

[User3]

Big time lurker, new poster, so be gentle. . .

This is a combo question from several different threads.

Many folks around here believe that Wizards can scribe into their spellbook and cast any spell they come across. This would include Miracle.

And admittedly, I imagine that in many of your games, beings with SLA of Wish are being bound and forced/traded with for their wishes.

But in a situation where a wizard was going to cast his own wish, why would he ever cast wish (automatically 5000 xp per casting) when he could just get Miracle in his spellbook and then use that instead. All spellcasting with miracle would be xp free, and you could use Wish for whatever your GM doesn't allow Miracle do (not sure what that would be. . .)

So, why would a Wizard use Wish himself, or if he wouldn't, why are the two spells different? They're both 9th level spells for classes with Ultimate Power. . .

[Cielingcat]

Because:

A. WotC didn't realize their rules allowed Wizards to get any spell they want

and/or

B. Getting a 9th level Divine scroll is hard.

[Endovior]

Well, according to Frank & K's reworking of Wish, your basic Wish doesn't require XP, either... But referring to the RAW, the differences between the two are as follows:

Wish is Arcane, Miracle is Divine.

Wish is Universal, Miracle is Evocation.

Unlike Wish, Miracle has a Somatic component.

Wish's XP component is mandatory, Miracle's is optional.

Wish ignores material components of duplicated spells up to 10000 Gp, Miracle ignores them up to 100 Gp.

Wish duplicates Sorcerer/Wizard spells best, Miracle duplicates Cleric spells best.

Wish can create items and grant creatures inherent bonuses to ability scores, Miracle cannot.

A Wish can duplicate Resurrection, a powerful Miracle can bring back LOTS of dead creatures.

A Wish can undo time itself, a Miracle cannot.

Although a cleverly worded Wish might help, a Miracle can completely protect a large area from a natural disaster.

That's about it; in all other respects, the spells are identical.

[NineInchNall]

1170226459[/unixtime]]...

Wish can create items and grant creatures inherent bonuses to ability scores, Miracle cannot.

Miracle: greater effect.

A Wish can undo time itself, a Miracle cannot.

Um ... Miracle: greater effect.

Although a cleverly worded Wish might help, a Miracle can completely protect a large area from a natural disaster.

Miracle: greater effect.


Miracle can do anything.

[User3]

I guess that was my original thought - Miracle can do any of the things that Wish lists as a "greater effect" by paying the 5000xp - making it equivalent to Wish, but better.

But maybe this is all too small to really matter.

[Fwib]

Wish has 'greater effect' text, where you can try to do anything and maybe get something that was not as you intended - Miracle has 'very powerful request' text, with examples of stuff you might ask for, and a "In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused." get-out clause.

So your best way to get miracle to do anything you want is to worship a god whose nature it is to give people what they ask for, or is generous, or a force or alignment that you can argue that the things requested are within the nature of (like 'magic' or maybe 'neutrality')

[RandomCasualty]

Miracle can't necessarily do everything wish can with a greater effect. It's the DM's decision. Basically if you're playing with a DM who loves clerics, then yes miracle greater effect is a lot better, if not, then wish still leaves some extra uses remaining (though admittedly not enough to make wish better)

[Cielingcat]

The greater effects from Wish are also the DM's decision.

[RandomCasualty]

1170267041[/unixtime]]The greater effects from Wish are also the DM's decision.

Well true, but some of them (like wishing for magic items) are specifically stated. I'm just saying that it isn't automatically assumed miracle can do those things, unless the DM so allows.

[Endovior]

Again, I'm going by the RAW; a number of the powerful and cool things the two spells can do are specifically listed. Beyond that, the DM can decide how much he wants the one spell to step on the toes of the other.

[OrionAnderson]

Why can wizards learn miracle? Are you going off that oddly worded thing in the PHB about unusual magical writings they may come across, or what?

Could I have a citation, and justification?

[Crissa]

Yes, the PHB and SRC say that Wizards can learn from spells that are written down. If they learn them, the spells are cast as arcane.

So... Don't write things down you don't intend Wizards to attempt to learn.

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty]

I don't really agree with that justification. Miracle still isn't on the wizard spell list, so they can't prepare it, even though they might oddly enough be able to copy it to their spell book.

And besides, it's a miracle, the god won't really have any reason to answer the wizard since he's casting something he shouldnt' be casting in the first place.

[erik]

1170289489[/unixtime]]I don't really agree with that justification. Miracle still isn't on the wizard spell list, so they can't prepare it, even though they might oddly enough be able to copy it to their spell book.

And besides, it's a miracle, the god won't really have any reason to answer the wizard since he's casting something he shouldnt' be casting in the first place.

Wow, not a single sentence that I don't strongly disagree with there.

It doesn't matter one whit that it isn't on the wizard spell list. That's the whole point of being able to create and/or learn new spells. You learn to prepare spells that aren't on the wizard list.

So if they can put it in their spellbook then they ought be able to cast it. The casting however is definitely under massive DM fiat.

It is worth reminding that a deity-less cleric could still cast miracle by the by, and that lends a lot of credence to the notion that a wizard could call upon the powers that be behind whatever alignment or portfolio he cares about when casting a miracle.

[AlphaNerd]

Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.

After reading (and rereading) the SRD section on Arcane Spells, it doesn't make it clear that you need a spell in your spellbook to actually prepare it. (I was hoping it would say what spells you could prepare).

Spell Preparation Time

After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

Sorcerors are required to know their spell to cast it, but can get other spells with DM permission.

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

But apparently, wizards can only cast spells off the Sorceror/Wizard list, though the spells don't have to be in their spellbook, RAW.

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. She must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.

Of course, we all know what should happen, and that is that Wizards need to know a spell and have it in their spellbook, and they don't cast Miracle.

[Catharz]

The Arcane Disciple feat will get a wizard Miracles regardless of what you think of the scribing rules.

[Judging__Eagle]

And, then they start Miracling themselves scrolls from Water Nagas of any divine spell that they want.

[User3]

Or they just use Shadowcraft builds to get Miracles that are more than 100% "real", now that it's on their spell list.